Behind in Math Courses - how does that affect College Admissions down the road?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, this is difficult because your son is young and you offer no glimpse into what you think he may/may not want to study (ok, he may have no idea yet) nor what your expectations are for him, if any yet, for the type of college he will attend. If he was likely going to major in art, communications, English, history, etc., I would say it would make no difference and let him enjoy the summer. Same is true if he is not seeking entrance to highly selective schools. And if he hates math, that answers it too. But if he seems to like math and wants to keep options open, then I would consider the summer. Another consideration is that in my experience high schools are better at teaching basic calculus than many colleges. You will have a real teacher in high school; in college you may have a prof or at TA or someone whose first language is not English and is difficult to understand. My first child regretted passing up the offer to take geometry in the summer to accelerate a year. It did not hurt admissions -- he's a very top university -- but many (maybe most) of the kids taking calculus in these colleges already studied it in high school and that impacts the grading curves common in STEM classes.

I would argue exactly the opposite: that such a kid needs a firm foundation in math that is unlikely to be established by a 6-week summer course.

I think there are a variety of viewpoints on whether it is better to take calculus in high school or not. Obviously, students who take calculus twice (in high school and then again in college) can have an advantage over those who are seeing it in college for the first time. OTOH, the fact that many STEM programs require students to take calculus in college (even if they already took it in high school) suggests that many colleges don't agree that high schools are better at teaching calculus.

http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/1685460-no-calculus-before-graduation.html

[Anonymous]

http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/1561216-rushing-to-calculus-in-high-school-only-to-repeat-it-in-college.html

[Anonymous]

Summer classes are a great chance to concentrate to more fully understand concepts.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:He skated through Algebra and got an 'A'. He does well on standardized tests.

I'm curious to know what made you realize that he had never grasped the concepts in Algebra I and had to retake the course.

In more rigorous school he was getting Ds and below on quizzes. Besides that he has frustrated by homework problems that didnt have a set procedure to solve. Last year he learned procedures and memorized formulas but did not learn learn actual math concepts like the some of the basic theorems. eg associative, distributive

This is actually incredibly common among bright kids who take algebra before they are developmentally ready for it, and it's a real problem in math education today. There are plenty of kids who aren't ready for algebra in middle school (and even more who aren't ready for it in 7th grade), but that doesn't mean they aren't good candidates for a rigorous math education.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, this is difficult because your son is young and you offer no glimpse into what you think he may/may not want to study (ok, he may have no idea yet) nor what your expectations are for him, if any yet, for the type of college he will attend. If he was likely going to major in art, communications, English, history, etc., I would say it would make no difference and let him enjoy the summer. Same is true if he is not seeking entrance to highly selective schools. And if he hates math, that answers it too. But if he seems to like math and wants to keep options open, then I would consider the summer. Another consideration is that in my experience high schools are better at teaching basic calculus than many colleges. You will have a real teacher in high school; in college you may have a prof or at TA or someone whose first language is not English and is difficult to understand. My first child regretted passing up the offer to take geometry in the summer to accelerate a year. It did not hurt admissions -- he's a very top university -- but many (maybe most) of the kids taking calculus in these colleges already studied it in high school and that impacts the grading curves common in STEM classes.

I would argue exactly the opposite: that such a kid needs a firm foundation in math that is unlikely to be established by a 6-week summer course.

I think there are a variety of viewpoints on whether it is better to take calculus in high school or not. Obviously, students who take calculus twice (in high school and then again in college) can have an advantage over those who are seeing it in college for the first time. OTOH, the fact that many STEM programs require students to take calculus in college (even if they already took it in high school) suggests that many colleges don't agree that high schools are better at teaching calculus.


I see your point and might agree with you if we were talking about any high school math class other than geometry. If the curriculum is good, I suspect he will repeat some geometry concepts the following year in trig. And whatever is lost in depth in geometry in the summer, also should be weighed against the idea that he would probably not lose as much Algebra I as many kids do when they take a break from Algebra for a school year to take geometry. But the real problem is that unless the student buys into taking it in the summer, he won't learn it as well as he should. The one thing I would absolutely not do is force a kid to take a summer class after 9th grade if he isn't into it. This is one of the few summers left where he can be more free to play, and that has important value in life as well.

http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/1685460-no-calculus-before-graduation.html

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, this is difficult because your son is young and you offer no glimpse into what you think he may/may not want to study (ok, he may have no idea yet) nor what your expectations are for him, if any yet, for the type of college he will attend. If he was likely going to major in art, communications, English, history, etc., I would say it would make no difference and let him enjoy the summer. Same is true if he is not seeking entrance to highly selective schools. And if he hates math, that answers it too. But if he seems to like math and wants to keep options open, then I would consider the summer. Another consideration is that in my experience high schools are better at teaching basic calculus than many colleges. You will have a real teacher in high school; in college you may have a prof or at TA or someone whose first language is not English and is difficult to understand. My first child regretted passing up the offer to take geometry in the summer to accelerate a year. It did not hurt admissions -- he's a very top university -- but many (maybe most) of the kids taking calculus in these colleges already studied it in high school and that impacts the grading curves common in STEM classes.

I would argue exactly the opposite: that such a kid needs a firm foundation in math that is unlikely to be established by a 6-week summer course.

I think there are a variety of viewpoints on whether it is better to take calculus in high school or not. Obviously, students who take calculus twice (in high school and then again in college) can have an advantage over those who are seeing it in college for the first time. OTOH, the fact that many STEM programs require students to take calculus in college (even if they already took it in high school) suggests that many colleges don't agree that high schools are better at teaching calculus.


I see your point and might agree with you if we were talking about any high school math class other than geometry. If the curriculum is good, I suspect he will repeat some geometry concepts the following year in trig. And whatever is lost in depth in geometry in the summer, also should be weighed against the idea that he would probably not lose as much Algebra I as many kids do when they take a break from Algebra for a school year to take geometry. But the real problem is that unless the student buys into taking it in the summer, he won't learn it as well as he should. The one thing I would absolutely not do is force a kid to take a summer class after 9th grade if he isn't into it. This is one of the few summers left where he can be more free to play, and that has important value in life as well.

Fair enough, but I do think, with a good teacher, geometry can be terrific at blasting kids out of a "formulaic" mode of thinking ("what formula do I need to plug in here to get the correct answer?") and encouraging them to actually *think* about math concepts.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, this is difficult because your son is young and you offer no glimpse into what you think he may/may not want to study (ok, he may have no idea yet) nor what your expectations are for him, if any yet, for the type of college he will attend. If he was likely going to major in art, communications, English, history, etc., I would say it would make no difference and let him enjoy the summer. Same is true if he is not seeking entrance to highly selective schools. And if he hates math, that answers it too. But if he seems to like math and wants to keep options open, then I would consider the summer. Another consideration is that in my experience high schools are better at teaching basic calculus than many colleges. You will have a real teacher in high school; in college you may have a prof or at TA or someone whose first language is not English and is difficult to understand. My first child regretted passing up the offer to take geometry in the summer to accelerate a year. It did not hurt admissions -- he's a very top university -- but many (maybe most) of the kids taking calculus in these colleges already studied it in high school and that impacts the grading curves common in STEM classes.

I would argue exactly the opposite: that such a kid needs a firm foundation in math that is unlikely to be established by a 6-week summer course.

I think there are a variety of viewpoints on whether it is better to take calculus in high school or not. Obviously, students who take calculus twice (in high school and then again in college) can have an advantage over those who are seeing it in college for the first time. OTOH, the fact that many STEM programs require students to take calculus in college (even if they already took it in high school) suggests that many colleges don't agree that high schools are better at teaching calculus.


I see your point and might agree with you if we were talking about any high school math class other than geometry. If the curriculum is good, I suspect he will repeat some geometry concepts the following year in trig. And whatever is lost in depth in geometry in the summer, also should be weighed against the idea that he would probably not lose as much Algebra I as many kids do when they take a break from Algebra for a school year to take geometry. But the real problem is that unless the student buys into taking it in the summer, he won't learn it as well as he should. The one thing I would absolutely not do is force a kid to take a summer class after 9th grade if he isn't into it. This is one of the few summers left where he can be more free to play, and that has important value in life as well.

Fair enough, but I do think, with a good teacher, geometry can be terrific at blasting kids out of a "formulaic" mode of thinking ("what formula do I need to plug in here to get the correct answer?") and encouraging them to actually *think* about math concepts.

I actually agree with you on this point as well. I loved geometry and really learned proofs -- and mathematical shorthand as well that I used to take notes all the way through college. But I must say that when my kids took the more accelerated geometry courses offered in their high schools I did not see what I recalled as the same degree of rigor in proofing - and generally I think they had very good math teachers a good curriculum. On the other hand, I see my child who is now in BC calculus getting quite a bit of experience with proofs - beyond what I remember learning in a year of college calculus -- and he gets very excited about it. Just like the old adage -- there's always more than one way to skin a cat (although when I write that out it seems like an awfully brutish expression!)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My 9th grader is in the same situation. Because of transferring schools so many times, he is only in algebra this year and is at least a year behind most of the other students at his school (the majority are in geometry at 9th graders). He is actually pretty good at math, understands the concepts, and is getting all A’s so far in algebra 1.

My DS really doesn’t want to take geometry over the summer either and his guidance counselor recommended against it because it is more geared for students that didn’t pass the course during the school year and won’t give a good foundation. So instead he will take honors geometry next year as a 10th grader. This will at least put him on track to graduate with honors pre-calc completed.

Yes, I do worry about the impact that not having high school calculus will have on my son’s college options but I figure it is more important to have a firm foundation in math, get decent grades, and do well on the math portion of the SAT/ACT. If your son didn’t get algebra the first time around, it sounds like retaking it was a smart move.

If your son did well with algebra this year, I don’t see why he couldn’t take honors geometry next year and at least get on the honors track. Like the PP, I would insist on this if I were you!

OP here. Thanks for insight and suggestions. Honors geometry is not offered. Perhaps i need to go back to the school and see if he can just take regular geometry (with 9th graders) instead going to the lower track. They didn't offer that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, this is difficult because your son is young and you offer no glimpse into what you think he may/may not want to study (ok, he may have no idea yet) nor what your expectations are for him, if any yet, for the type of college he will attend. If he was likely going to major in art, communications, English, history, etc., I would say it would make no difference and let him enjoy the summer. Same is true if he is not seeking entrance to highly selective schools. And if he hates math, that answers it too. But if he seems to like math and wants to keep options open, then I would consider the summer. Another consideration is that in my experience high schools are better at teaching basic calculus than many colleges. You will have a real teacher in high school; in college you may have a prof or at TA or someone whose first language is not English and is difficult to understand. My first child regretted passing up the offer to take geometry in the summer to accelerate a year. It did not hurt admissions -- he's a very top university -- but many (maybe most) of the kids taking calculus in these colleges already studied it in high school and that impacts the grading curves common in STEM classes.

I would argue exactly the opposite: that such a kid needs a firm foundation in math that is unlikely to be established by a 6-week summer course.

I think there are a variety of viewpoints on whether it is better to take calculus in high school or not. Obviously, students who take calculus twice (in high school and then again in college) can have an advantage over those who are seeing it in college for the first time. OTOH, the fact that many STEM programs require students to take calculus in college (even if they already took it in high school) suggests that many colleges don't agree that high schools are better at teaching calculus.

http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/1685460-no-calculus-before-graduation.html

A number of people on college confidential noted that their students went into engineering with only pre-calculus in HS. Maybe not at the most competitive universities but it is interesting to note. I think that if a student is really ready for advanced math, that is great but I hear of so many students struggling past Algebra 2 that I wonder if the rush to get to Calculus in HS makes sense for most kids, even those that might end up in the sciences.

[Anonymous]

Geometry in the summer will be grueling. I think only if it's the student who is really pushing for it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:He skated through Algebra and got an 'A'. He does well on standardized tests.

I'm curious to know what made you realize that he had never grasped the concepts in Algebra I and had to retake the course.

In more rigorous school he was getting Ds and below on quizzes. Besides that he has frustrated by homework problems that didnt have a set procedure to solve. Last year he learned procedures and memorized formulas but did not learn learn actual math concepts like the some of the basic theorems. eg associative, distributive

This is actually incredibly common among bright kids who take algebra before they are developmentally ready for it, and it's a real problem in math education today. There are plenty of kids who aren't ready for algebra in middle school (and even more who aren't ready for it in 7th grade), but that doesn't mean they aren't good candidates for a rigorous math education.

This happened to my DD. She retook Algebra I, then took Geometry in the summer so that she'd be back on track for high school. It worked out well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:He skated through Algebra and got an 'A'. He does well on standardized tests.

I'm curious to know what made you realize that he had never grasped the concepts in Algebra I and had to retake the course.

In more rigorous school he was getting Ds and below on quizzes. Besides that he has frustrated by homework problems that didnt have a set procedure to solve. Last year he learned procedures and memorized formulas but did not learn learn actual math concepts like the some of the basic theorems. eg associative, distributive

This is actually incredibly common among bright kids who take algebra before they are developmentally ready for it, and it's a real problem in math education today. There are plenty of kids who aren't ready for algebra in middle school (and even more who aren't ready for it in 7th grade), but that doesn't mean they aren't good candidates for a rigorous math education.

This happened to my DD. She retook Algebra I, then took Geometry in the summer so that she'd be back on track for high school. It worked out well.

Was this in public school or private school? In MCPS, the summer math classes are 6 weeks at 5 hours a day. At some private schools (Sidwell, St. Andrews), the summer classes are 5-6 weeks and only 4 hours a day or less.

[Anonymous]

Slow and steady can be an option for some. Student I know finished HS w/Algebra 2 only. He had taken Algebra 1 in two parts over 9th and 10th grade. Geometry in 11th. Lots of different ways to become college-ready and prepare to be successful in college math - depends on the college and the level of selectivity.