Any Catholics out there who "feel" Protestant?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's faith AND works. Get it? Not JUST works.

If you just believe, and do bad things, you are saved? That's crazy talk to me.

Literal interpretation means relying on what the Bible says, literally. As in people who believe Adam and Eve is a literal story and the Earth was created 6,000 years ago.

I get what you're saying, but that's not what Scripture says. If you truly place your faith in Christ, you are filled with the Holy Spirit, who convicts of sin, encourages us to live righteously and disciplines when we don't. But the Bible clearly says we are not saved by works. Isaiah 64:6 says, "All our righteousness is as filthy rags." And I get what you're saying about literal interpretation, but Paul's laying out of the theology behind this is cannot be construed as metaphor. We must rely on a plain reading of the text, which says we cannot count on our works to save us. Try the entire book of Galatians. Romans, as well. Romans 4:2-5 says, "For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness." Romans 6:23 says, "The wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord." I'm sorry to sound so pedantic on this, but this understanding is of eternal consequence.

This is why evangelicals are so horrible. They legitimately believe that they can do whatever they want and God has to accept them. That's why they're such fucking stingy haters to everyone else.

1 John 1:9: "If we confess our sins, God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness." No one I know who is sorrowful for their sins is a "f****** stingy hater."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What's your point, PP?

Well, it's not my point, but Jesus's point, and that is that those who are focused on their sinfulness before God and ask forgiveness of it are forgiven, and that those who make a point of feeling justified by their own good actions are not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote: if we believe, as the Catholic church teaches, that we must do certain good works in order to be justified by God, then we are not saved.

So you really think that believe that salvation is through faith and good works are not saved? i.e. they won't go to heaven? Truly?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What's your point, PP?

Well, it's not my point, but Jesus's point, and that is that those who are focused on their sinfulness before God and ask forgiveness of it are forgiven, and that those who make a point of feeling justified by their own good actions are not.

Nobody here was proposing such self-righteousness.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: if we believe, as the Catholic church teaches, that we must do certain good works in order to be justified by God, then we are not saved.

So you really think that believe that salvation is through faith and good works are not saved? i.e. they won't go to heaven? Truly?

Yes, I believe that what I wrote and what you quoted is what the Bible teaches.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What's your point, PP?

Well, it's not my point, but Jesus's point, and that is that those who are focused on their sinfulness before God and ask forgiveness of it are forgiven, and that those who make a point of feeling justified by their own good actions are not.

Nobody here was proposing such self-righteousness.

I might be misreading things, and if so, I'm sorry for belaboring this point. But I do think that is what was being proposed. Saying we have to do good works to be saved is trusting in our own (that is, self-)righteousness, and then pointing to other people's sin and saying no way can those guys be saved because of all their sins seemed to me what this passage in Matthew was addressing. I do believe that habitual, unrepentant, willful sinning is indicative of someone without true faith in Christ, but the Bible does say that it is our faith alone that saves us.

[Anonymous]

OP again, many of the posts here (especially early ones are very detailed and helpful. A lot for me to think on; thank you! Keep it coming if you can. I wish everyone in the thread could be more respectful of each other, though.

[Anonymous]

Here's a handy chart, OP:

http://www.religionfacts.com/christianity/charts/catholic_protestant.htm

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Here's a handy chart, OP:

http://www.religionfacts.com/christianity/charts/catholic_protestant.htm

OP, please take this chart with a huge grain of salt. This is written from a Calvinist viewpoint, and these precepts are a great source of dispute in Christian tradition.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Cradle Catholic, feel myself eventually deciding to go Protestant in future (I'm in my 40s).

This isn't about scandals or anything, but rather realizing I believe the Eucharist is representative of Christ (not Transubstantiation), never been heavily into Mary, saying rosary, going to confession (although I do it). I feel I should be with God when and where I want, not necessarily each Sunday at Mass. Want to see different sides of Scripture and not what we're told by Rome, etc.

There's no anger, just my thinking there's no point in staying the course. DS has one year until confirmation and then I'd like him to decide if he wants to remain Catholic or come with me to a Protestant church, etc (DH was raised Protestant but doesn't really attend now).

Has anyone BTDT?

* It would be helpful if this didn't devolve into an anti-Catholic hateful thread, thanks.

Have you considered trying a different parish? My liberal leaning Catholic church does not heavily emphasize many of the things you dislike about the Catholic churchl except weekly attendance at Mass, which is non-negotiable. Perhaps you need to find a more inspiring and open Catholic community. On the otherhand, perhaps give and Episcopal church or Methodist church a try.

[Anonymous]

^^ What is the Calvinist point of view you see, PP? What do you see as inaccurate, broadly speaking, recognizing that Protestants have a diverse set of beliefs and practices? Is it inaccurate on the whole, in your view? In what way?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Have you considered trying a different parish? My liberal leaning Catholic church does not heavily emphasize many of the things you dislike about the Catholic churchl except weekly attendance at Mass, which is non-negotiable. Perhaps you need to find a more inspiring and open Catholic community. On the otherhand, perhaps give and Episcopal church or Methodist church a try.

Yes!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:^^ What is the Calvinist point of view you see, PP? What do you see as inaccurate, broadly speaking, recognizing that Protestants have a diverse set of beliefs and practices? Is it inaccurate on the whole, in your view? In what way?

Under free will, freedom to choose only evil. This is basically the "total depravity" teaching in a nutshell.
Under divine grace, sufficient grace for salvation given to elect only. While this could be read both ways, it sounds very much like the Calvinist viewpoint that God chooses those whom He will save, not anyone who comes to Christ.
"Unconditional" salvation sounds very much like "unconditional election."

Basically, Calvinism teaches that God chose before the world was created who He would save, and who He would not. It does, however, teach that those whom God chose to save are indeed saved by the sacrifice of Christ on the cross. This is in opposition to other evangelical teaching that the salvation of Christ is available to all who choose to believe in Christ as their savior.

I would encourage a thorough study of the Bible (best done by reading the Bible and with much prayer, and not a bunch of commentaries) to sort this out. I don't want to start a Calvinism debate on here, but it is necessary to point out that many of these charts and so forth that can be linked to are not quite so cut-and-dried in their presentation of Christian tenets.

[Anonymous]

OP here, I had actually been thinking along the Methodist lines...

[Anonymous]

Or Presbyterian. We're pretty laid back.
Though Episcopalians are closest to Catholic in terms of structure of the service---though there is a little tendency towards WASP elitism . . . with all fondness towards my Episcopalian friends . . . . .

The Presbyterian elders visited a little old lady who had stopped coming to church. "I'm ashamed," she said, "as I am poor and have nothing decent to wear."
The elders took up a collection at church and sent the old woman some funds to use for clothing.
She still didn't show up. The elders went to visit her again and she explained airily, "I look so good now---I've started going to the Episcopal Church . . . . "