Which Islam?

[Anonymous]

Yeah, I see that. The point about the gates of ijtihad has popped up now and then but never as a dialogue. Interesting.

[Anonymous]

New poster here. Married into an Egyptian Muslim family and have lived in Cairo. Islam varies by region, by culture, by language, and by individual. Christianity does too, for the most part. My Episcopal relatives would have a really hard time agreeing on a lot of things with non-denominational evangelical Christian, for example. And that's just here in the States. Broaden in globally and it has extreme variations. My Haitian Catholic friend doesn't believe in confession. A surprise to me. Culture.

Same with Islam. Egyptians practice it differently among themselves and have integrated several Shiite and Pharonic practices that would make a Wahhabi's head spin. My Egyptian relatives are buried in tombs far below the ground in the City of the Dead. And they visit them. Much more like how ancient Egyptians buried their dead than the how the Prophet Mohamed described. Most of the Egyptian men I know regularly consult a Sufi Sheik. My Malaysian Muslim friends celebrate the Prophet's birthday, which much of the Islamic world frowns on. American Christians for the most part differ vastly from Coptic Christians in Egypt. I have Christian Egyptian female friends my age and older (mid 40s) who were circumcised. It's an ancient cultural practice that has been conflated with religion, mostly, IMO, because religion is present in every single moment and aspect of life in Egypt in a way I've never seen here. The lines blur as to what's cultural vs what's religious in origin. I was surprised to learn the other day that my Christian Indian friend had an arranged marriage. I have Hindu friends whose marriages were arranged but didn't realize it extended to Christians as well. And she plans to do the same for her daughter who was born here. I have never heard of a Muslim woman in Egypt marrying a Christian man. But I have many Indian Muslim friends who have married Hindus. Totally forbidden by traditional Islam, but not unusual in India. Again, culture.

I don't know for sure although I've been guilty of it. But when people say "Islam requires..." It may mean they are referring to official schools of thought or madhabs. There are four traditional schools of thought in Sunni Islam. My family is mostly Maliki. And that's a minority in Egypt, for example. While they don't do everything that Madhab says, they'd be able to tell you what they "should" do. Eat halal meat for example. Which means it's killed a certain way and a prayer is said. But everyone I know just makes sure to say "Bismillah" before eating, and as long as it's not pork, they consider their food halal. Same for some adherents of other religions. I had lunch today with some coworkers. My Jewish friend had a ham and cheese sandwich. That doesn't mean he can't explain kosher rules to me. It just means he chooses to do something different himself. Does that make him less Jewish? Maybe some Jewish people would think so. But I don't think non-Jews would judge him. Maybe I'm wrong. In any event, it would be helpful to view the posts by Muslims as stemming from their life experiences. And that you will hear different opinions based on the person's background, language, culture, etc. Because there really is no one Islam once you get past the very basics. Personally I think it's the same for most religions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Who's fault is it that we think they're passing off their personal views as being shared by all Islam?

I don't think anyone can be blamed for what you think other than you. If someone presents their view about Islam as being shared by all Islam, I think an appropriate reply is "that may be your view, but certainly you agree many other professed Muslims believe differently..." But, when someone agrees that there is no "one" Islam, I think it is implied that they do not think their personal beliefs are shared by all Muslims.

Do you think the 2nd Muslim poster, who apparently started many of the Islam threads, agrees that her views may be unrepresentative? Because I haven't heard her speak to this.

Do you think everybody here, plus the new posters, remembers that exchange between you and Muslima?

Maybe you need a sticky at the top: "None of the Muslim posters speaks for all of Islam."

Meanwhile, we've been respectfully (most of us) challenging them all along, like you just suggested above, yet you've accused us of having agendas. It's not our fault non-Muslima PP puts out 50 dubious posts an hour. Did you bother to look at the thread about the standing of the turbans' deen vs. PP's personal take on things?

(Also, did you really just argue that a thread title of "What Does Islam Say About Concubines?" shouldn't be taken at face value? Especially if it didn't come from Muslima?)

I think it's safe to say ISIS and many Wahabi Muslims would say my views are not reprsentative of them. I didn't think this needed to be stated. But I believe my views are representative of many Muslims outside Saudi Arabia and particuarly in the Americas. Muslims I know do not condone terrorism. Most Muslims I know want the Sharia in Muslim countries but admit that some laws need to be revised. The ones who had more harsh views moved back to their country and dislike Muslims living here. The point was, if the Sharia has some flaws, it does not follow that the whole of Islam is an uncivilized and barbaric faith, which is what those PP's were saying and which Muslima and I protested. Islam or the Sharia can not be judged against western justice systems because they are too different -- western justice systems places greater emphasis on individual rights and Islam places greater emphasis on the rights of society.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:New poster here. Married into an Egyptian Muslim family and have lived in Cairo. Islam varies by region, by culture, by language, and by individual. Christianity does too, for the most part. My Episcopal relatives would have a really hard time agreeing on a lot of things with non-denominational evangelical Christian, for example. And that's just here in the States. Broaden in globally and it has extreme variations. My Haitian Catholic friend doesn't believe in confession. A surprise to me. Culture.

Same with Islam. Egyptians practice it differently among themselves and have integrated several Shiite and Pharonic practices that would make a Wahhabi's head spin. My Egyptian relatives are buried in tombs far below the ground in the City of the Dead. And they visit them. Much more like how ancient Egyptians buried their dead than the how the Prophet Mohamed described. Most of the Egyptian men I know regularly consult a Sufi Sheik. My Malaysian Muslim friends celebrate the Prophet's birthday, which much of the Islamic world frowns on. American Christians for the most part differ vastly from Coptic Christians in Egypt. I have Christian Egyptian female friends my age and older (mid 40s) who were circumcised. It's an ancient cultural practice that has been conflated with religion, mostly, IMO, because religion is present in every single moment and aspect of life in Egypt in a way I've never seen here. The lines blur as to what's cultural vs what's religious in origin. I was surprised to learn the other day that my Christian Indian friend had an arranged marriage. I have Hindu friends whose marriages were arranged but didn't realize it extended to Christians as well. And she plans to do the same for her daughter who was born here. I have never heard of a Muslim woman in Egypt marrying a Christian man. But I have many Indian Muslim friends who have married Hindus. Totally forbidden by traditional Islam, but not unusual in India. Again, culture.

I don't know for sure although I've been guilty of it. But when people say "Islam requires..." It may mean they are referring to official schools of thought or madhabs. There are four traditional schools of thought in Sunni Islam. My family is mostly Maliki. And that's a minority in Egypt, for example. While they don't do everything that Madhab says, they'd be able to tell you what they "should" do. Eat halal meat for example. Which means it's killed a certain way and a prayer is said. But everyone I know just makes sure to say "Bismillah" before eating, and as long as it's not pork, they consider their food halal. Same for some adherents of other religions. I had lunch today with some coworkers. My Jewish friend had a ham and cheese sandwich. That doesn't mean he can't explain kosher rules to me. It just means he chooses to do something different himself. Does that make him less Jewish? Maybe some Jewish people would think so. But I don't think non-Jews would judge him. Maybe I'm wrong. In any event, it would be helpful to view the posts by Muslims as stemming from their life experiences. And that you will hear different opinions based on the person's background, language, culture, etc. Because there really is no one Islam once you get past the very basics. Personally I think it's the same for most religions.

Nice post and definitely reflects my experience. I've lived in a couple of Arab countries and am married to an Arab Christian. The vast majority of Arab are know are pretty live and let live with religion and yes amazing the amount of conflation between social custom and what people think religion requires; it can be so intertwined. Unfortunately, one does see growing signs of a way less tolerant strand of religion emerging in the Arab world; I hope in the end they can beat it back.