if MS doesn't offer Algebra II

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Mature kid would find a way to deal with the situation and not quit. if you don't like couple of kids in the club because they appear to be immature, you don't just "pick up the ball and go home". That is not showing maturity. Quitting and forming another club is not learning how to deal with a problem and it sounds like whining. I don't think this should be such a difficult concept to grasp.

Clearly you're wedded to the race to nowhere, so trying to explain common sense to you is a waste of time. But I'll try:

Mature high school kids who are into math and winning national competitions have a justifiably low tolerance for babies ( a few of whom seemed to be there because their parents thought it would look good on their TJ app.) distracting them from trying to learn. My son was not alone in quitting and in fact went with a group to the director to express their concerns. She was reluctant to confront the younger kid's parents. Fortunately, another established club, with much higher standards of admission was only to happy to recruit them.

I supported him in this situation because a) he's got a good track record of solving his own problems and running his own life, and b) I thought he and his friends done their best to endure an situation that was no longer enjoyable or productive and was not going to change because the parent managing it had no control. Immaturity would have been sitting around and complaining about it, which they did not do. They got on with their lives.

As a parent of older kids, I agree that it is not fair to ask high school kids to open their high school club to sixth graders. These age groups are at very different places in their lives. It may have been appropriate to ask the high schoolers to work with or present a program for the sixth graders. No matter how advanced in math a sixth grader may be, they are simply not at the emotional or social maturity level of a high school student. I think your son and his friends handled things well; they did not whine and complain, they took action and improved the situation for themselves without taking anything away from the younger children. Maybe the high school kids could be given some type of leadership positions in the other club which now can focus more on the needs of the younger children?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Mature kid would find a way to deal with the situation and not quit. if you don't like couple of kids in the club because they appear to be immature, you don't just "pick up the ball and go home". That is not showing maturity. Quitting and forming another club is not learning how to deal with a problem and it sounds like whining. I don't think this should be such a difficult concept to grasp.

Clearly you're wedded to the race to nowhere, so trying to explain common sense to you is a waste of time. But I'll try:

Mature high school kids who are into math and winning national competitions have a justifiably low tolerance for babies ( a few of whom seemed to be there because their parents thought it would look good on their TJ app.) distracting them from trying to learn. My son was not alone in quitting and in fact went with a group to the director to express their concerns. She was reluctant to confront the younger kid's parents. Fortunately, another established club, with much higher standards of admission was only to happy to recruit them.

I supported him in this situation because a) he's got a good track record of solving his own problems and running his own life, and b) I thought he and his friends done their best to endure an situation that was no longer enjoyable or productive and was not going to change because the parent managing it had no control. Immaturity would have been sitting around and complaining about it, which they did not do. They got on with their lives.

As a parent of older kids, I agree that it is not fair to ask high school kids to open their high school club to sixth graders. These age groups are at very different places in their lives. It may have been appropriate to ask the high schoolers to work with or present a program for the sixth graders. No matter how advanced in math a sixth grader may be, they are simply not at the emotional or social maturity level of a high school student. I think your son and his friends handled things well; they did not whine and complain, they took action and improved the situation for themselves without taking anything away from the younger children. Maybe the high school kids could be given some type of leadership positions in the other club which now can focus more on the needs of the younger children?

If the above is true:
No high school students should be allowed to dual enroll at Universities.
No middle school students should be allowed to go to high school for Geometry, Algebra II etc. courses.
No 6th graders should be allowed to go to middle school to take Algebra I courses.

The Fairfax Math Circle should prohibit anyone but high school students to join the club.
TJ Varsity Math Club should not allow any middle school students to come and practice with them on and on and on. I guess you are in agreement with all of the above as well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Mature kid would find a way to deal with the situation and not quit. if you don't like couple of kids in the club because they appear to be immature, you don't just "pick up the ball and go home". That is not showing maturity. Quitting and forming another club is not learning how to deal with a problem and it sounds like whining. I don't think this should be such a difficult concept to grasp.

Clearly you're wedded to the race to nowhere, so trying to explain common sense to you is a waste of time. But I'll try:

Mature high school kids who are into math and winning national competitions have a justifiably low tolerance for babies ( a few of whom seemed to be there because their parents thought it would look good on their TJ app.) distracting them from trying to learn. My son was not alone in quitting and in fact went with a group to the director to express their concerns. She was reluctant to confront the younger kid's parents. Fortunately, another established club, with much higher standards of admission was only to happy to recruit them.

I supported him in this situation because a) he's got a good track record of solving his own problems and running his own life, and b) I thought he and his friends done their best to endure an situation that was no longer enjoyable or productive and was not going to change because the parent managing it had no control. Immaturity would have been sitting around and complaining about it, which they did not do. They got on with their lives.

As a parent of older kids, I agree that it is not fair to ask high school kids to open their high school club to sixth graders. These age groups are at very different places in their lives. It may have been appropriate to ask the high schoolers to work with or present a program for the sixth graders. No matter how advanced in math a sixth grader may be, they are simply not at the emotional or social maturity level of a high school student. I think your son and his friends handled things well; they did not whine and complain, they took action and improved the situation for themselves without taking anything away from the younger children. Maybe the high school kids could be given some type of leadership positions in the other club which now can focus more on the needs of the younger children?

If the above is true:
No high school students should be allowed to dual enroll at Universities.
No middle school students should be allowed to go to high school for Geometry, Algebra II etc. courses.
No 6th graders should be allowed to go to middle school to take Algebra I courses.

The Fairfax Math Circle should prohibit anyone but high school students to join the club.
TJ Varsity Math Club should not allow any middle school students to come and practice with them on and on and on. I guess you are in agreement with all of the above as well.

The first three above are academic courses, not social clubs. I believe Fairfax Math Circle is not a high school sponsored club and is meant for a variety of ages. The TJ Varsity Math Club may choose to invite younger children if they wish, but they should not be required to be open to middle schoolers. High school clubs partially serve as a social outlet for high school aged students, whatever the purpose of the club may be. A club sponsored by a high school should be first and foremost for the students of that high school. Younger children typically do not participate on high school sponsored sports teams, no matter how advanced they are. The middle school or elementary school can sponsor a club and maybe invite the high schoolers to come and work with them, but the high schoolers deserve to have a place where they can meet with other kids their own age. These are extracurricular clubs we're talking about here, not for-credit coursework.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think a lot of people think it's the parents that are pushing the kids to do too much too soon, which would be wrong and detrimental to the child. But what they don't realize is that there are actually kids who legitimately want and need the advanced classes, not the parents. That is not such a difficult concept to grasp.[/quote]


A lot of kids legitimately want and "need" certain things from the school system. But we can't all get what we want from a public system and still serve everyone well. When we moved back here from China my kids were speaking Chinese -- in order to keep their Chinese current they wanted and needed to continue in school. Should they have been bused to a high school that offered it since their Chinese was more advanced than most high school students? No! We had to pursue additional study on our own. Middle schools should be for middle school students, high school should be for high school students. If someone wants to advance beyond that they should do that on their own, take part in math clubs that do advanced math, take an online or outside course etc. Or, as my son did, teach themselves. There is also a maturity component that many of these advanced math students don't have. I know this because I have one. And when my son got to high school and joined a math club he really enjoyed it, until a bunch of six graders' parents decided their kids had to join. Suddenly none of the older students, like my son, who had the self-control to sit still and be quiet for a lecture, could hear what the math guest speakers were saying. He eventually quit and found another math group where the leader had the sense to limit it to students capable of handling the material and the rules.

I don't think this should be such a difficult concept to grasp. We're all "advanced" at something, but the world shouldn't be required to adjust to that.

Did you know that some fcps middle schools offer algebra 2 and some don't? That's why fcps would bus to a high school for it, to prevent discrimination. Not to cater to whims. Your Chinese class analogy is not on point.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Mature kid would find a way to deal with the situation and not quit. if you don't like couple of kids in the club because they appear to be immature, you don't just "pick up the ball and go home". That is not showing maturity. Quitting and forming another club is not learning how to deal with a problem and it sounds like whining. I don't think this should be such a difficult concept to grasp.

Clearly you're wedded to the race to nowhere, so trying to explain common sense to you is a waste of time. But I'll try:

Mature high school kids who are into math and winning national competitions have a justifiably low tolerance for babies ( a few of whom seemed to be there because their parents thought it would look good on their TJ app.) distracting them from trying to learn. My son was not alone in quitting and in fact went with a group to the director to express their concerns. She was reluctant to confront the younger kid's parents. Fortunately, another established club, with much higher standards of admission was only to happy to recruit them.

I supported him in this situation because a) he's got a good track record of solving his own problems and running his own life, and b) I thought he and his friends done their best to endure an situation that was no longer enjoyable or productive and was not going to change because the parent managing it had no control. Immaturity would have been sitting around and complaining about it, which they did not do. They got on with their lives.

As a parent of older kids, I agree that it is not fair to ask high school kids to open their high school club to sixth graders. These age groups are at very different places in their lives. It may have been appropriate to ask the high schoolers to work with or present a program for the sixth graders. No matter how advanced in math a sixth grader may be, they are simply not at the emotional or social maturity level of a high school student. I think your son and his friends handled things well; they did not whine and complain, they took action and improved the situation for themselves without taking anything away from the younger children. Maybe the high school kids could be given some type of leadership positions in the other club which now can focus more on the needs of the younger children?

If the above is true:
No high school students should be allowed to dual enroll at Universities.
No middle school students should be allowed to go to high school for Geometry, Algebra II etc. courses.
No 6th graders should be allowed to go to middle school to take Algebra I courses.

The Fairfax Math Circle should prohibit anyone but high school students to join the club.
TJ Varsity Math Club should not allow any middle school students to come and practice with them on and on and on. I guess you are in agreement with all of the above as well.

I am in agreement with most of the above, actually, with the exception of dual enrollment at Universities which is paid for by the student and really doesn't have anything to do with what is going on at a public high school. My son took two math classes that way when he exhausted the math offerings at his school.

I don't think elementary school students need to go to middles schools. I also don't believe middle school students belong in high schools though I know there are some schools that share facilities and I could see how this would seem to make sense. For what it's worth, it's not just academics. I feel the same about 7th and 8th graders doing high school sports. There's a time and place so why rush it? As far as Geometry -- it's taught at the middle schools, so why would there be a need to send kids to high schools for that? I also know that at least at our local middle school they teach Algebra II to a group of 8th graders, though I'm sure in a few years that will be a group of 6th graders if some people here have their way.

As for the Fairfax Math Circle, since it started out being for High School students, with the odd precocious 8th grader, yes, I think it should be limited to older kids. If there are so many middle schoolers and sixth graders who need a math circle, why can't their parents start their own, just as parents started the Fairfax Circle?

I know nothing about the TJ Varsity Math club. But I do know that sometimes it is really difficult for TJ students to get into certain clubs given the competition within their own ranks. If the younger students are only coming to practice periodically and benefit from TJ students mentoring, I'd be fine with that. But if they were actually taking spaces meant for high schoolers, I'd say have them wait until they get to TJ. Again, what is the infernal rush? Is their intelligence going to wear off? Will they be unable to find challenges on their own? I doubt it.

The problem with making all these exceptions is that, in this area, they start to become the perceived standard. Every parent starts thinking something is wrong if their smart child isn't working two or three grades above in math. The first couple of kids they make exceptions for may be the true genius outliers. Many of those coming after will be the kids who are pushed through math so quickly they never learn the basics. Witness the remedial math program for 1/3 of TJ freshman.

[Anonymous]

Did you know that some fcps middle schools offer algebra 2 and some don't? That's why fcps would bus to a high school for it, to prevent discrimination. Not to cater to whims. Your Chinese class analogy is not on point.


[Report Post]


Yes I did. But offering Algebra II in middle schools is a relatively new development and something that should never have started in the first place, imo and the opinion of many math teachers I know. The high school ridiculousness arose out of that.

And what you consider a "whim" others might consider a necessity. My kids are actually more likely to use their Chinese after school and in their eventual careers than any advanced math that they take, but I don't expect the school system to do backflips to accommodate them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Mature kid would find a way to deal with the situation and not quit. if you don't like couple of kids in the club because they appear to be immature, you don't just "pick up the ball and go home". That is not showing maturity. Quitting and forming another club is not learning how to deal with a problem and it sounds like whining. I don't think this should be such a difficult concept to grasp.

Clearly you're wedded to the race to nowhere, so trying to explain common sense to you is a waste of time. But I'll try:

Mature high school kids who are into math and winning national competitions have a justifiably low tolerance for babies ( a few of whom seemed to be there because their parents thought it would look good on their TJ app.) distracting them from trying to learn. My son was not alone in quitting and in fact went with a group to the director to express their concerns. She was reluctant to confront the younger kid's parents. Fortunately, another established club, with much higher standards of admission was only to happy to recruit them.

I supported him in this situation because a) he's got a good track record of solving his own problems and running his own life, and b) I thought he and his friends done their best to endure an situation that was no longer enjoyable or productive and was not going to change because the parent managing it had no control. Immaturity would have been sitting around and complaining about it, which they did not do. They got on with their lives.

As a parent of older kids, I agree that it is not fair to ask high school kids to open their high school club to sixth graders. These age groups are at very different places in their lives. It may have been appropriate to ask the high schoolers to work with or present a program for the sixth graders. No matter how advanced in math a sixth grader may be, they are simply not at the emotional or social maturity level of a high school student. I think your son and his friends handled things well; they did not whine and complain, they took action and improved the situation for themselves without taking anything away from the younger children. Maybe the high school kids could be given some type of leadership positions in the other club which now can focus more on the needs of the younger children?

This is great in theory, but how many math kids do you know who aren't interested more in leadership and mentoring the needs of younger kids. The ones I know are interested in Math. Period. At least at this point when they're trying to learn as much as they can.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Did you know that some fcps middle schools offer algebra 2 and some don't? That's why fcps would bus to a high school for it, to prevent discrimination. Not to cater to whims. Your Chinese class analogy is not on point.


[Report Post]


Yes I did. But offering Algebra II in middle schools is a relatively new development and something that should never have started in the first place, imo and the opinion of many math teachers I know. The high school ridiculousness arose out of that.

And what you consider a "whim" others might consider a necessity. My kids are actually more likely to use their Chinese after school and in their eventual careers than any advanced math that they take, but I don't expect the school system to do backflips to accommodate them.

I drove my DS to high school to take Geometry since it wasn't available at his middle school so why should that not be an option?

Is it only ok for your son to exhaust all math courses at the high school and take additional courses above high school and not other kids? If high school should be for high school students only according to your logic, then college should be for college students only as well.