Does the college matter?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

She went to Princeton for her undergrad and Harvard Law School which makes quite a difference.

As a parent of three children who have all done fairly well, let me just say that where one goes for undergrad does matter as does the major but even more important is where they end up going for grad school, business school, law school or medical school.

But I also agree with those who advocate going a good state school for undergrad and then expending any disposable income for the next step in their education.

Sure. I was just pointing out that what one majors in in undergrad has little bearing on one's future earnings compared to where they go, how well they do, how they network, and where and how well they go to graduate/law/medical/business school. I found that chart informative, because it basically indicates that with the exception of a handful of engineering degrees, what is most important is getting a degree, and perhaps going to graduate or professional school. The incomes vary somewhat, but not as drastically as one would think--for the most part 50K, +/-5K as a median income (and this is only for people who only have a bachelors degree--graduate degree holders are not represented). It indicates to me that majoring in the humanities and social studies is not the economic death sentence that people seem to believe, and majoring in the sciences is not the magic bullet either. This is coming from someone who majored in the sciences myself.

This is just outright misleading. Corporate CEOs' frequently say they have well paying jobs available in their companies but there are not sufficient applicants with the right skill sets and so they end up having to look overseas. A major in the humanities is not a death sentence but it does not offer one the opportunities for career growth and compensation that other majors do. It is the reality of today's job market.

BTW, I went to an liberal arts school for my undergrad but it was a different era.

[Anonymous]

This is just outright misleading. Corporate CEOs' frequently say they have well paying jobs available in their companies but there are not sufficient applicants with the right skill sets and so they end up having to look overseas. A major in the humanities is not a death sentence but it does not offer one the opportunities for career growth and compensation that other majors do. It is the reality of today's job market.

BTW, I went to an liberal arts school for my undergrad but it was a different era.

I have graduated in the past 5 years and watched a number of peers navigate the current job market from a range of majors. I have also looked at the statistics in terms of employment and salary. I am not sure what major, aside from engineering offers "career growth and compensation" that is guaranteed. And even though my engineering friends are better compensated once they get a job, getting a job can be hell, especially in a specialized field like aerospace engineering (I had a friend nonstop apply for over a year before he got a position). I have also seen English majors work writing reports for hedge funds making 70K off the bat (especially if they are networked and have good grades), and people walk into management consulting with any range of majors. As a lab technician--which is all you can get with a B.S. in molecular biology, biochemistry, or chemistry that is directly related to the job--you make maybe 30K in an academic setting, 45-50K in an industrial setting with zero prospects of career growth. You need a PhD to get further, and even the job market for PhDs is rough right now and can get you into a area of eternal postdoc (the academic job market is nuts, and the industrial job market is hard to break into as well) where you are stuck making 40K indefinitely after a decade of higher education.

Mathematics majors, if they are good at it often have options. There is always a need for actuarial work. But if you don't have an aptitude for it, then you're not going to pass the exams you need to pass to do that sort of work. People who work in IT, software engineering, and other areas in tech also are well compensated and have career growth, although especially in silicon valley, the environment is brutal, and if you are a shitty programmer, you're not going to do well there.

A lot of humanities types go to law school, or get certified to teach. I have also seen people do editorial work, work at consulting firms, go into journalism, do marketing work, and work at non-profits. Obviously there is a range of compensation in these areas. Law school is a gamble, but the super driven get into Big Law or a federal clerkship or get a scholarship and work for a regional firm (and most of the people I know who go to law school go to a top 10, mostly Harvard, Yale, and Chicago, and or make smart decisions about where they want to practice regionally and go to a school with a strong regional reputation).

What I haven't seen, despite concerns on this board, is that driven humanities kids don't do fine at the end of the day. I also see lazy science kids floundering. And when I look at the range of compensation and the unemployment rate, there is a slight difference, but not nearly as stark as everyone has led me to believe my whole life. I am a science major, and I think majoring in science is great if someone has the aptitude. But not everyone has the aptitude, and not everyone is cut out to go into science or medicine.

And I think a lot of the corporate CEOs saying they have to look overseas comes from cheapness on their part. They can pay foreigners less, and threaten their employment status with a visa. There is a glut of PhDs in the sciences right now, and most of the issue here comes from a lack of initiative to train entry level employees coming from CEOs. Nearly every job requires three years of experience, and it becomes a catch 22 in highly technical fields.

[Anonymous]

^^^Gospel.

[Anonymous]

And I think a lot of the corporate CEOs saying they have to look overseas comes from cheapness on their part. They can pay foreigners less, and threaten their employment status with a visa. There is a glut of PhDs in the sciences right now, and most of the issue here comes from a lack of initiative to train entry level employees coming from CEOs. Nearly every job requires three years of experience, and it becomes a catch 22 in highly technical fields.

+1000

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Don't spend big dollars on a sociology degree even from Yale or NYU

Well, according to this chart, sociology majors make a median of 45K, which is better than counseling psychology (29K), about the same as English (48K), and worse, but not an order of magnitude worse from even some STEM majors (biochemistry 53K, biological engineering 50K, chemistry 57K). From this chart, it looks to me like all this angst about what to major in matters little. In less you are in a hot engineering field, likely getting a degree at all means that your earnings will cluster around 40-55K without grad school.

You know who was a successful ivy league sociology major? Michelle Obama.

yes, but she wasn't paying for that sociology degree, she got lots of scholarships
If you're not footing the bill, or racking up big loans, study whatever you like wherever you like. If you're borrowing/spending 50k/yr to fund an undergrad sociology degree, I'd say that was a poor choice.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you can't get into a big-name private school, you should go to a public school that is cheap.

Big name doesn't need to be private. UVA? W&M? Michigan?

Which from the other post are the 3 most expensive state schools for OOS students. They are only slightly less than the top private colleges.

[Anonymous]

I think it depends on her major. DD is a jr and is very artistic and wants a career in the arts and. BFA rather than a BA . The schools she is targeting arent necessarily top schools as defined by most but for BFAs are quite respected and most of the programs are audition/ portfolio only. To prospective employers in her field. The programs will matter more than a tradition top 20 school .

[Anonymous]

We will always need good sociologists to figure out why society is so messed up!

[Anonymous]

She's only in 10th grade. What she wants to do will likely change over the next few years. You want her to go to a school that will give her the opportunity to grow and explore in a supportive environment.

I'm personally a fan of the small colleges.

[Anonymous]

State schools are cheaper, even for OOS students than private schools. Penn State, Rutgers and many others are in the $28,000 for tuition (plus about $10,000 for room and board). Many privates are $45,000/48,000 for tuition (plus about $10,000room and board). So you are looking at saving about $20,000 for mid level OOS state schools. UVA and Michigan are more expensive, but still less than many privates. UNC is in the mid to low 30's.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

This is just outright misleading. Corporate CEOs' frequently say they have well paying jobs available in their companies but there are not sufficient applicants with the right skill sets and so they end up having to look overseas. A major in the humanities is not a death sentence but it does not offer one the opportunities for career growth and compensation that other majors do. It is the reality of today's job market.

BTW, I went to an liberal arts school for my undergrad but it was a different era.

I have graduated in the past 5 years and watched a number of peers navigate the current job market from a range of majors. I have also looked at the statistics in terms of employment and salary. I am not sure what major, aside from engineering offers "career growth and compensation" that is guaranteed. And even though my engineering friends are better compensated once they get a job, getting a job can be hell, especially in a specialized field like aerospace engineering (I had a friend nonstop apply for over a year before he got a position). I have also seen English majors work writing reports for hedge funds making 70K off the bat (especially if they are networked and have good grades), and people walk into management consulting with any range of majors. As a lab technician--which is all you can get with a B.S. in molecular biology, biochemistry, or chemistry that is directly related to the job--you make maybe 30K in an academic setting, 45-50K in an industrial setting with zero prospects of career growth. You need a PhD to get further, and even the job market for PhDs is rough right now and can get you into a area of eternal postdoc (the academic job market is nuts, and the industrial job market is hard to break into as well) where you are stuck making 40K indefinitely after a decade of higher education.

Mathematics majors, if they are good at it often have options. There is always a need for actuarial work. But if you don't have an aptitude for it, then you're not going to pass the exams you need to pass to do that sort of work. People who work in IT, software engineering, and other areas in tech also are well compensated and have career growth, although especially in silicon valley, the environment is brutal, and if you are a shitty programmer, you're not going to do well there.

A lot of humanities types go to law school, or get certified to teach. I have also seen people do editorial work, work at consulting firms, go into journalism, do marketing work, and work at non-profits. Obviously there is a range of compensation in these areas. Law school is a gamble, but the super driven get into Big Law or a federal clerkship or get a scholarship and work for a regional firm (and most of the people I know who go to law school go to a top 10, mostly Harvard, Yale, and Chicago, and or make smart decisions about where they want to practice regionally and go to a school with a strong regional reputation).

What I haven't seen, despite concerns on this board, is that driven humanities kids don't do fine at the end of the day. I also see lazy science kids floundering. And when I look at the range of compensation and the unemployment rate, there is a slight difference, but not nearly as stark as everyone has led me to believe my whole life. I am a science major, and I think majoring in science is great if someone has the aptitude. But not everyone has the aptitude, and not everyone is cut out to go into science or medicine.

And I think a lot of the corporate CEOs saying they have to look overseas comes from cheapness on their part. They can pay foreigners less, and threaten their employment status with a visa. There is a glut of PhDs in the sciences right now, and most of the issue here comes from a lack of initiative to train entry level employees coming from CEOs. Nearly every job requires three years of experience, and it becomes a catch 22 in highly technical fields.

Stem is definitively oversold. That said, the difference is that stem majors do stuff (however poorly compensated) that has more in common with their major than, say, sociology majors. Many people might not care about that. Personally, I do, and it upsets me that much of what I learned in college was wasted from that perspective.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We will always need good sociologists to figure out why society is so messed up!

They can refer back to this thread. You know why so many people (especially here) are miserable? It's because every decision is motivated by money. What happened to encouraging kids to follow their passions? One of my college kids was pre-med and doing fantastic in the program. At the start of her senior year she switched her major to special education. We are thrilled because she is doing what she wants to do. She thought she wanted to be a pediatric psychiatrist. She discover that what she really wants to do is work with children who have suffered brain injury. She won't make nearly as much money. But I think she made a great decision.

We have three in college in three different states. All three chose very different schools. One is at an Ivy. One is at a large well-know state school. The other is at a very small public university that most people have never heard of. Each chose the school because they felt a connection with the college not because of how much money they might earn.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We will always need good sociologists to figure out why society is so messed up!

They can refer back to this thread. You know why so many people (especially here) are miserable? It's because every decision is motivated by money. What happened to encouraging kids to follow their passions? One of my college kids was pre-med and doing fantastic in the program. At the start of her senior year she switched her major to special education. We are thrilled because she is doing what she wants to do. She thought she wanted to be a pediatric psychiatrist. She discover that what she really wants to do is work with children who have suffered brain injury. She won't make nearly as much money. But I think she made a great decision.

We have three in college in three different states. All three chose very different schools. One is at an Ivy. One is at a large well-know state school. The other is at a very small public university that most people have never heard of. Each chose the school because they felt a connection with the college not because of how much money they might earn.

I will definitely encourage my child to follow a passion as a hobby, not an educational path. I strongly believe my child will not be happy as a starving artist. I believe the whole 'follow your passion' movement is a crock....but I won't push my child into a path which is abhorrent.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We will always need good sociologists to figure out why society is so messed up!

They can refer back to this thread. You know why so many people (especially here) are miserable? It's because every decision is motivated by money. What happened to encouraging kids to follow their passions? One of my college kids was pre-med and doing fantastic in the program. At the start of her senior year she switched her major to special education. We are thrilled because she is doing what she wants to do. She thought she wanted to be a pediatric psychiatrist. She discover that what she really wants to do is work with children who have suffered brain injury. She won't make nearly as much money. But I think she made a great decision.

We have three in college in three different states. All three chose very different schools. One is at an Ivy. One is at a large well-know state school. The other is at a very small public university that most people have never heard of. Each chose the school because they felt a connection with the college not because of how much money they might earn.

I will definitely encourage my child to follow a passion as a hobby, not an educational path. I strongly believe my child will not be happy as a starving artist. I believe the whole 'follow your passion' movement is a crock....but I won't push my child into a path which is abhorrent.

You don't have to starve simply because you choose a college and a career based on criteria other than money. I sincerely hope my daughter (who graduates this year and has already accepted a teaching position) wii not starve as a special ed teacher. Would she have more money as a physician? Certainly. But there are so many things more important than money. I'm so glad my children understand that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We will always need good sociologists to figure out why society is so messed up!

They can refer back to this thread. You know why so many people (especially here) are miserable? It's because every decision is motivated by money. What happened to encouraging kids to follow their passions? One of my college kids was pre-med and doing fantastic in the program. At the start of her senior year she switched her major to special education. We are thrilled because she is doing what she wants to do. She thought she wanted to be a pediatric psychiatrist. She discover that what she really wants to do is work with children who have suffered brain injury. She won't make nearly as much money. But I think she made a great decision.

We have three in college in three different states. All three chose very different schools. One is at an Ivy. One is at a large well-know state school. The other is at a very small public university that most people have never heard of. Each chose the school because they felt a connection with the college not because of how much money they might earn.

I will definitely encourage my child to follow a passion as a hobby, not an educational path. I strongly believe my child will not be happy as a starving artist. I believe the whole 'follow your passion' movement is a crock....but I won't push my child into a path which is abhorrent.

You don't have to starve simply because you choose a college and a career based on criteria other than money. I sincerely hope my daughter (who graduates this year and has already accepted a teaching position) wii not starve as a special ed teacher. Would she have more money as a physician? Certainly. But there are so many things more important than money. I'm so glad my children understand that.

But what if she wanted to be an actress? Or college professor? Or a chess player? It looks like she chose something which, while not necessarily glamorous, still makes her employable. There are many many passions for which this is not the case.