Please convince me: DCPS over MoCo for smart kids

[Anonymous]

I'm with the PP. We just moved out of AU across the Western Ave line into MD. The neighborhood is full of affordable homes if you are in the $700-850K range (mostly less than AU.) You might not get sidewalks and walkable alleys, but you'll get better schools, bigger yards, community pools, etc. I can do all of the walking I did before.

[Anonymous]

OP again: 12:36, could you be more specific about the rewards of keeping your kids in DCPS? I hope, but can't be sure from this distance whether the benefits will outweigh the drawbacks. BTW I'm a very involved parent, yet I can't budge my school because the bureaucracy is too powerful, and parents here are too apathetic.

[Anonymous]

Your children will do well in DCPS, and they will be in the advanced group at Wilson and get in to terrific colleges.

[Anonymous]

OP, Please email me (12:36) if you'd like more info about DCPS, [e-mail].

[Anonymous]

@ 17:18

Hope this isn't too off-topic. Sounds like you're genuinely a proponent of Wilson (academies, presumably?). That's nice to hear. Did you consider School Without Walls? We're not at that stage yet, but I'm interested to hear your opinion. We have 2 DC and I can really see the younger one navigating the Walls environment well I suspect the older one needs a little more structure. OTOH, I'm not sure that *I* really understand the benefits and drawbacks of each as well as I'd like. If you can elaborate more on what you like best about Wilson, I'd love to hear.

Again, I'm not looking for criticism or anything negative - just trying to get a sense of what type of personality is likely to fit in better at the school.

Thx in advance (if you see this)!

[Anonymous]

FH is an interesting study in urbanness. I live on the DC side and walked over to MD to leaflet for a peace vigil at Livingston Park before Bush bombed Iraq. I was struck by how different the two sides of the line were. DC is a grid pattern street system where it's not just your neighbors you see on your street but people who work in the area, shop, are attending church services, taking their kids to preschool or the park, etc.

By contrast, the MD side had cul de sacs, very limited points of entry into the residential area, no sidewalks on some streets. and lots of cars. As an "outsider" (who lives all of three blocks away!) I got lots of suspicious looks and a couple of interrogations.

I was amazed by how many cars there were in each driveway and the census data at the block group level confirms that 2 or 2+ car households are dominant in MD but not in DC. (I looked at the east side of Wisconsin in both cases). You can live in a walkable enclave but still have a car-dependent lifestyle and that seemed to be what I was seeing in FH, MD.

Basically, to me, urbanness involves lots more random/anonymous encounters (and lots more encounters, period) on the street and in the neighborhood than suburbia. Public space is seen as more truly public/shared/communal and there's less boundary-policing.

As I said earlier, there are definitely parts of DC (Spring Valley leaps to mind, as do some Chevy Chase neighborhoods) that are just as suburban as the suburbs. Maybe the hallmark of suburbia for me is that you've got no reason to be there unless you live there (or are servicing those who do). Another aspect of this phenomenon is that suburbs work harder to wall off retail and employment centers from residential area (as well as arterial roads from residential roads), whereas in cities there's less distance/distinction.

The FH, MD description (can walk places, talk to neighbors on the porch, etc.) is more village-y or small town to my mind. (Which is usually less differentiated then suburbia, because scale is smaller, but has the same neighbors vs. strangers divide).

[Anonymous]

Re Rhee. She's getting good press (then again, Kaplan is the economic tail that wags the Washington Post's dog), but if you look closely at what she's actually done (something the vast majority of Ward 3 citizens have not felt the need to do), you'll see just how clueless and destructive her approach is.

I'm all for reform of DCPS. I don't send my kids there because I have great alternatives and I have no confidence in the existing system. So I'm not invested in the status quo -- I want to see it radically changed.

But I want to see it changed for the better. Closing a mediocre elementary school to fold it into a dire middle school is not progress. Rhee was not closing the worst- performing schools -- in a number of cases, she was actually increasing their enrollments to package them for takeover.

Yes, she's fired lots of people. But quite arbitrarily in some cases (Art Siebens), without any demonstrably positive results, and without better hires waiting in the wings. She's hasn't worked with families or communities or teachers in most cases and their involvement is crucial to improving schools.

She likes toadies and she assumes that any criticism of her approach just proves she's a bold, visionary leader rather than a fuck-up.

She assumes money is the best motivator for teachers, students, and administrators and that high standardized test scores are the only relevant output. She's spent inordinate sums of money while creating a situation in which DCPS is hemorrhaging students.

I'm a teacher myself (ex-college professor), the daughter of a teacher, and a teacher of teachers, and from all of those vantage points, I can say that the best teachers I know wouldn't work for a boss like Rhee. And that's a big problem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote: there are risks in the suburbs as well (kids developing a sense of entitlement, for one, extreme competitiveness, too many material goods, lack of diversity, cultural blandness, etc.) that are often discounted in the search for "safety" and good schools.

Being in the city doesn't immunize you for those risks and, in fact, many of the Ward 3 elementary schools being recommended will be filled with kids whose sense of entitlement and access to material goods isn't much different from that of their next door neighbors in private schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Full disclosure: My kids aren't in DCPS yet, although we intend to send our boys all the way through.

But I do have some insight to share from my father, who taught HS English for 35 years across a range of public schools in the Baltimore area. While I was attending a G&T program at an extremely high-performing public HS, my father was teaching the same curriculum to kids at one of the "worst" high schools in the same county. Although his G&T classes were smaller than mine, the kids were just as strong and were admitted to the same caliber colleges as my friends and I were. After I graduated HS, my father moved to another school in the county, this one much more similar to mine. Bigger G&T classes, but the kids were no more accomplished or successful than those at his previous school.

The point: Family support -- combined with natural ability -- is the most important predictor of success in school. As long a school has a small core of high-achieving students with supportive families, those students will do very well.

A few other points worth noting: Deal MS is completing a major renovation and introducing an IB program; Deal families seem to be very excited about both. And if you search on this forum, you'll see the very long list of impressive colleges accepting multiple Wilson students last year. Finally, there are a number of charter school options to consider if DCPS doesn't end up feeling right for your kids in MS and HS -- Washington Latin and School Without Walls, for example. And Banneker is a wonderful DCPS magnet school.

FWIW, we're choosing to send our kids to DCPS; we could afford private, but we love the city and want to support the schools -- and we think our kids will see some real benefit from attending schools with student bodies drawn from a wide socio-economic range. That said, MoCo has a wonderful school system and a number of lovely close-in neighborhoods, so it's certainly an attractive option if you're moving to the area.

Good luck to you, no matter what you decide!

PP, your analogy to your father's experience is inapplicable to DCPS schools. Your father taught G&T classes at a "bad" school, while you went to G&T at the "good" school. That comparison doesn't hold w/ the OP's Q about DCPS, because in DCPS there is NO G&T. Yes, it's true that there are some excellent students in every DCPS school (even the "bad" ones, I'm quite sure have many very bright students). Unfortunately, since DCPS has no G&T screening, no G&T program, not even a structure or guidance for how to evaluate whether and how to give above-grade level kids an education appropriate to their skills at grade entry. By contrast, MCPS does do screening, does provide guidance for how to teach to different levels of kids w/i a class, as well as providing special centers for more highly gifted students.

No doubt, bright kids who do stay in DCPS will do well. But, at the elementary level that may mean that a kid in 4th grade math may "do well" at 4th grade math because he knew it all already. By contrast, the same kid in MCPS could choose to be accelerated to a higher level math class (probably even with other age-peers, i.e. I don't mean he will be skipped ahead to the next grade for math). So what does "doing well" mean? That a kid gets A's because he/she already knew the material? Or is "doing well" becoming an accomplished and successful person (which I personally don't think has much to do with getting good grades or going to a good school or making a lot of money) or is "doing well" being happy and making friends?

For me, my main concern is that my child is challenged for most of his day in each grade to learn things he doesn't already know. That simply never happened for us in DCPS. Not even close.

At the high school level, the difference between MCPS and DCPS may level out in the sense that both systems have international bacc. and AP programs at some schools (which are generally thought to be more rigorous than the regular curriculum). But, if you have a bright child in DCPS, he/she will be left twisting in the wind until high school, and by then they may very well have lost their spark or found it's not cool to be smart.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:@ 17:18

Hope this isn't too off-topic. Sounds like you're genuinely a proponent of Wilson (academies, presumably?). That's nice to hear. Did you consider School Without Walls? We're not at that stage yet, but I'm interested to hear your opinion. We have 2 DC and I can really see the younger one navigating the Walls environment well I suspect the older one needs a little more structure. OTOH, I'm not sure that *I* really understand the benefits and drawbacks of each as well as I'd like. If you can elaborate more on what you like best about Wilson, I'd love to hear.

Again, I'm not looking for criticism or anything negative - just trying to get a sense of what type of personality is likely to fit in better at the school.
Thx in advance (if you see this)!

I've heard very positive things about SWOW as well. From what I understand about Wilson, if you have a top student they are basically in a "school within a school." And, all things being equal in terms of grades and test scores, a student from Wilson will get selected for a top-tier college over the student from MoCo.

[Anonymous]

Is it an exaggeration to call downtown Silver Spring vile?

Depends on how you feel about plastic grass serving as a huge communal lawn, I guess. And a huge concrete bus yard anchoring downtown.

Some images:
http://home.comcast.net/~phyilla1/myphotos/abovetransitcenter.jpg
http://www.craphound.com/images/jul4silverspring.jpg
http://www.towercompanies.com/images/prop_LWP_theBlairs.jpg

YMMV, of course, but, depending on your urban aesthetic, this area could certainly be considered vile.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Is it an exaggeration to call downtown Silver Spring vile?

Depends on how you feel about plastic grass serving as a huge communal lawn, I guess. And a huge concrete bus yard anchoring downtown.

Some images:
http://home.comcast.net/~phyilla1/myphotos/abovetransitcenter.jpg
http://www.craphound.com/images/jul4silverspring.jpg
http://www.towercompanies.com/images/prop_LWP_theBlairs.jpg

YMMV, of course, but, depending on your urban aesthetic, this area could certainly be considered vile.

Yeah.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Full disclosure: My kids aren't in DCPS yet, although we intend to send our boys all the way through.

But I do have some insight to share from my father, who taught HS English for 35 years across a range of public schools in the Baltimore area. While I was attending a G&T program at an extremely high-performing public HS, my father was teaching the same curriculum to kids at one of the "worst" high schools in the same county. Although his G&T classes were smaller than mine, the kids were just as strong and were admitted to the same caliber colleges as my friends and I were. After I graduated HS, my father moved to another school in the county, this one much more similar to mine. Bigger G&T classes, but the kids were no more accomplished or successful than those at his previous school.

The point: Family support -- combined with natural ability -- is the most important predictor of success in school. As long a school has a small core of high-achieving students with supportive families, those students will do very well.

A few other points worth noting: Deal MS is completing a major renovation and introducing an IB program; Deal families seem to be very excited about both. And if you search on this forum, you'll see the very long list of impressive colleges accepting multiple Wilson students last year. Finally, there are a number of charter school options to consider if DCPS doesn't end up feeling right for your kids in MS and HS -- Washington Latin and School Without Walls, for example. And Banneker is a wonderful DCPS magnet school.

FWIW, we're choosing to send our kids to DCPS; we could afford private, but we love the city and want to support the schools -- and we think our kids will see some real benefit from attending schools with student bodies drawn from a wide socio-economic range. That said, MoCo has a wonderful school system and a number of lovely close-in neighborhoods, so it's certainly an attractive option if you're moving to the area.

Good luck to you, no matter what you decide!

PP, your analogy to your father's experience is inapplicable to DCPS schools. Your father taught G&T classes at a "bad" school, while you went to G&T at the "good" school. That comparison doesn't hold w/ the OP's Q about DCPS, because in DCPS there is NO G&T. Yes, it's true that there are some excellent students in every DCPS school (even the "bad" ones, I'm quite sure have many very bright students). Unfortunately, since DCPS has no G&T screening, no G&T program, not even a structure or guidance for how to evaluate whether and how to give above-grade level kids an education appropriate to their skills at grade entry. By contrast, MCPS does do screening, does provide guidance for how to teach to different levels of kids w/i a class, as well as providing special centers for more highly gifted students.

No doubt, bright kids who do stay in DCPS will do well. But, at the elementary level that may mean that a kid in 4th grade math may "do well" at 4th grade math because he knew it all already. By contrast, the same kid in MCPS could choose to be accelerated to a higher level math class (probably even with other age-peers, i.e. I don't mean he will be skipped ahead to the next grade for math). So what does "doing well" mean? That a kid gets A's because he/she already knew the material? Or is "doing well" becoming an accomplished and successful person (which I personally don't think has much to do with getting good grades or going to a good school or making a lot of money) or is "doing well" being happy and making friends?

For me, my main concern is that my child is challenged for most of his day in each grade to learn things he doesn't already know. That simply never happened for us in DCPS. Not even close.

At the high school level, the difference between MCPS and DCPS may level out in the sense that both systems have international bacc. and AP programs at some schools (which are generally thought to be more rigorous than the regular curriculum). But, if you have a bright child in DCPS, he/she will be left twisting in the wind until high school, and by then they may very well have lost their spark or found it's not cool to be smart.

Well, my father was teaching high school, and where I grew up, G&T didn't start until middle school; given the presence of IB and AP in DC high schools and the introduction of IB at Deal, I think the comparison is applicable. But you're right -- "doing well" is subjective, and each family has to decide what it means for them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is it an exaggeration to call downtown Silver Spring vile?

Depends on how you feel about plastic grass serving as a huge communal lawn, I guess. And a huge concrete bus yard anchoring downtown.

Some images:
http://home.comcast.net/~phyilla1/myphotos/abovetransitcenter.jpg
http://www.craphound.com/images/jul4silverspring.jpg
http://www.towercompanies.com/images/prop_LWP_theBlairs.jpg

YMMV, of course, but, depending on your urban aesthetic, this area could certainly be considered vile.

Yeah.

The plastic grass is gone now. It was only supposed to be temporary from the start and now the area is under construction. But lots of people mourn the plastic grass -- every weekend you'd see tons of families with toddlers, teenagers with soccer balls, and others hanging out on the grass. Something you don't see on the DC mall so much, where it's mostly tourists.

Sure, you can pick the worst pics and post them here. I could do that for DC, too. But there are plenty of nice places in SS that aren't shown here.

[Anonymous]

Those pictures certainly reflect what I see/experience when I am in the so-called "urban" part of Silver Spring.