Strong willed, Stubborn, or on the spectrum

[Anonymous]

Me again from the previous two posts

Please look into sensory processing disorder and sensory seeking behavior. Things like noises, clothing tags, the need for sensation alone, etc. can lead to tantrum behavior. This is usually comorbid with spectrum dx...but there is a shift toward allowing SPD to be its own diagnosis.

In any case, finding an occupational therapist who specializes in children with SPD can be very helpful. I found a lot of value in Angie Voss' books and website (Google search and it will come up).

My son went through a lot of what you describe when he was 3.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Yeah why would you think "on the spectrum"? Autism is not a grab bag for any problematic childhood behavior. It is a social communication disorder. If your dc socializes well he does not have autism.

I feel like just about everyone today assumes any developmental delay is autism. OP, it could be lots of things. Just his personality, ADHD, anxiety...The developmental pediatrician will help you sort it out and will probably recommend behavioral therapy at the very least. (Also, don't be surprised if medication is mentioned depending on what it is. If your kid is 3, these tantrums may get worse. The key thing is to keep him safe.) GL

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

there's a big difference between tantrums and autistic meltdowns. Your child is having a tantrum.

http://columbustelegram.com/meltdown-vs-tantrum/article_f81e0257-f46b-5109-825f-56438817f1c9.html



There are distinct differences between a tantrum and a meltdown for children.

During a temper tantrum:

• The child wants a reaction and will check to see if they are getting one.

• The child can alter behavior to ensure they do not get hurt.

• The child will use a situation to his/her benefit.

• Once the goal of the tantrum is met, the behavior returns to normal.

• The child is in control the whole time.

During a meltdown:

• The child has no awareness of the social impact of the situation.

• The child is not concerned for their own safety.

• The child does not care if or how others react to his/her behavior during the meltdown.

• A meltdown is best defined by saying it is a total loss of behavioral control.

• The behaviors are generally not on purpose.

Signs of the 'Rage stage'

• Screaming, biting, kicking

• Impulsive acts

• Explosive, emotional

• Destroying property

• Internalized behavior

Children may not remember what happened during the 'Rage stage' or may apologize. A child may deny it happened or go into a withdrawal phase where a fantasy world may be the target. Once the rage cycle starts, all opportunities for learning for the child are gone. During the 'Rage stage' is when the neurotransmitters are not working correctly.

Rage interventions

• Protect the child

• Protect others and the environment

• Obtain assistance

• Remove the audience

• Follow a plan

• Use few words

• Be nonconfrontational

Children with Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) have trouble detecting how they feel and do not know how to calm themselves. The ability to verbalize what they are to do and doing it are two different skills. A child can repeat a phrase, paragraph or request but cannot do it.

Source: www.educationnews.org; Dr. Brenda Smith Myles, "The Cycle of Rage and Meltdowns," www.texasautism.com

THIS. My SN DS has meltdowns. The meltdowns are epic and are very very different from a tantrum. We have had to restrain DS a few times because he attempted to hurt us or himself. My NT DD has tantrums. They are much like you describe OP. She is a very strong willed child. We have a set way to deal with her when she has a tantrum. We DO NOT engage at all. She is left alone (in whatever room she is in) to get control of herself (we do keep an eye on her, but we do not engage). Then, AND ONLY THEN, will we engage. My DD is 6 and we have always handled her tantrums in this way.

I do agree that it's worth a visit to a DP to see if there is anything beyond the normal strong willed child going on though.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

there's a big difference between tantrums and autistic meltdowns. Your child is having a tantrum.

http://columbustelegram.com/meltdown-vs-tantrum/article_f81e0257-f46b-5109-825f-56438817f1c9.html



There are distinct differences between a tantrum and a meltdown for children.

During a temper tantrum:

• The child wants a reaction and will check to see if they are getting one.

• The child can alter behavior to ensure they do not get hurt.

• The child will use a situation to his/her benefit.

• Once the goal of the tantrum is met, the behavior returns to normal.

• The child is in control the whole time.

During a meltdown:

• The child has no awareness of the social impact of the situation.

• The child is not concerned for their own safety.

• The child does not care if or how others react to his/her behavior during the meltdown.

• A meltdown is best defined by saying it is a total loss of behavioral control.

• The behaviors are generally not on purpose.

Signs of the 'Rage stage'

• Screaming, biting, kicking

• Impulsive acts

• Explosive, emotional

• Destroying property

• Internalized behavior

Children may not remember what happened during the 'Rage stage' or may apologize. A child may deny it happened or go into a withdrawal phase where a fantasy world may be the target. Once the rage cycle starts, all opportunities for learning for the child are gone. During the 'Rage stage' is when the neurotransmitters are not working correctly.

Rage interventions

• Protect the child

• Protect others and the environment

• Obtain assistance

• Remove the audience

• Follow a plan

• Use few words

• Be nonconfrontational

Children with Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) have trouble detecting how they feel and do not know how to calm themselves. The ability to verbalize what they are to do and doing it are two different skills. A child can repeat a phrase, paragraph or request but cannot do it.

Source: www.educationnews.org; Dr. Brenda Smith Myles, "The Cycle of Rage and Meltdowns," www.texasautism.com

THIS. My SN DS has meltdowns. The meltdowns are epic and are very very different from a tantrum. We have had to restrain DS a few times because he attempted to hurt us or himself. My NT DD has tantrums. They are much like you describe OP. She is a very strong willed child. We have a set way to deal with her when she has a tantrum. We DO NOT engage at all. She is left alone (in whatever room she is in) to get control of herself (we do keep an eye on her, but we do not engage). Then, AND ONLY THEN, will we engage. My DD is 6 and we have always handled her tantrums in this way.

I do agree that it's worth a visit to a DP to see if there is anything beyond the normal strong willed child going on though.

This is a very helpful list. To me, his tantrums fall under the meltdown area. But I really don't have anything to compare them to. My older daughter never did this.

The behaviors that are common are:

• The child has no awareness of the social impact of the situation.--Yes

• The child is not concerned for their own safety.--He has never done anything to harm himself like throw himself down the stairs or bang his head on the wall.

• The child does not care if or how others react to his/her behavior during the meltdown.--Yes

• A meltdown is best defined by saying it is a total loss of behavioral control.--Yes

• The behaviors are generally not on purpose.--I don't know the answer to this. Saying no to him sets him off. So is his behavior a response to my no and therefore on purpose?

Someone asked about consequences---when he's in the full blown tantrum mode, he doesn't hear me. I can say if you can't calm yourself down, we won't be able to go to the park, but he won't calm down. When it's over, he'll ask if we can go to the park. Then I explain that we can't because he had a tantrum. He will just say okay and go on about life. The next day, he won't remember that his tantrum was tied to not going to the park. We even review the previous days behavior in the morning....ie remember yesterday you had a tantrum and we didn't go to the park. I'd like to go to the park with you today. Do you think you can behave nicely today and not have a tantrum. He'll say yes but then 4 hours later we're back to the tantrum.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yeah why would you think "on the spectrum"? Autism is not a grab bag for any problematic childhood behavior. It is a social communication disorder. If your dc socializes well he does not have autism.

I feel like just about everyone today assumes any developmental delay is autism. OP, it could be lots of things. Just his personality, ADHD, anxiety...The developmental pediatrician will help you sort it out and will probably recommend behavioral therapy at the very least. (Also, don't be surprised if medication is mentioned depending on what it is. If your kid is 3, these tantrums may get worse. The key thing is to keep him safe.) GL

Thank you. I know something is not right but I don't know what it is. Can you tell me more about behavioral therapy? As for medication--I'm not sure how I feel about it. I want him to feel better. He can't be happy living like this and screaming for hours every day. I know I would be horse and have a headache. But I also don't want him to feel that he's living in a fog.

[Anonymous]

This is the part of the analysis that concerns me most

Children with Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) have trouble detecting how they feel and do not know how to calm themselves. The ability to verbalize what they are to do and doing it are two different skills. A child can repeat a phrase, paragraph or request but cannot do it.

This just about describes what's going on to a T. He can't calm himself and he cannot do what he's supposed to even though he can tell me (when not in the tantrum) what he's supposed to do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You will get more helpful replies if you post this in Special Needs. Which developmental ped are you seeing?

Dan Shapiro

OK, that's good. I have a dc with a somewhat similar profile and the Childrens developmental peds were not helpful. I would also request an evaluation from Child Find (what county are you in?).

Do you need the preschool for daycare or is it just for socializing? What does the preschool do now when he starts tantrumming? Is he totally out of control during the tantrum (like a rage?) or can he calm himself down if he wants to? (LIke if you said, I'm counting to three and if you stop screaming you get a piece of cake, would he stop? Or is he out of control and it needs to burn itself out?)

We're in Mont. Cty. I need the preschool for daycare. When he tantrums at preschool, they take him outside and let him scream until he's ready to go back inside. At home, he's out of control during the tantrum. I would assume that the behavior is the same at school. "Burn itself out"---that's a great way to describe it.

[Anonymous]

Np here. Your response in 2212 makes me think he is a regular 3yo. Of course he doesn't realize or care whatvothers think. He just wants his way. Read123 magic or other discipline books. Boys especially get upset. Normal 3yo behavior, you just have to learn to react properly.

Who has been watching him during the day from 18 months until now? Who was watching him before age 18 months? What was their or your reaction to tantrums and crying?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Np here. Your response in 2212 makes me think he is a regular 3yo. Of course he doesn't realize or care whatvothers think. He just wants his way. Read123 magic or other discipline books. Boys especially get upset. Normal 3yo behavior, you just have to learn to react properly.

Who has been watching him during the day from 18 months until now? Who was watching him before age 18 months? What was their or your reaction to tantrums and crying?

I'd love for this to be normal 3yo behavior that he will eventually outgrow. From 3mo-18mo, he was with an in home family daycare provider. We sold our house when he was around 18mo and he transitioned into the center based preschool that he's currently in. From 3mo-18mo, there weren't tantrums. Last year, the preschool did what they did today--just let him scream it out. But today, he hurt another child and had to be removed from the classroom. At home, we've removed the door from his bedroom and there is a baby gate across the opening. He cannot open the gate. When his tantrums start, he is first given a timeout. If he can get himself together, after 3 min, he can rejoin the family. If he cannot and the tantrum is escalating, he is taken to his room. I sit him down on his bed and tell him why he is going to his room. Then I walk out of the room and shut the gate. I stay upstairs with him but in a different room. I check on him every 5 min or so. When he's in his room, he doesn't throw anything. He just sits on the floor by the gate and screams and kicks the floor.

[Anonymous]

My dc was like this at age 3-5. Anything could set them off once a day. My dc could scream at the top of their lungs for an hour. When we were home it was ok because I put them in their room. But when we were out or on vacation it was a nightmare. But we got through that stage. My dc is smart, lovable, creative, and social. Just part of parenting. My dc is 10 now and fine.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My dc was like this at age 3-5. Anything could set them off once a day. My dc could scream at the top of their lungs for an hour. When we were home it was ok because I put them in their room. But when we were out or on vacation it was a nightmare. But we got through that stage. My dc is smart, lovable, creative, and social. Just part of parenting. My dc is 10 now and fine.

Thank you. Although I don't think I can take another 2 years of this. But yes, DH and I don't go out much with the kids, don't have friends over, and have never taken DS to a hotel. We're too scared of what might set him off and cause a tantrum. If we have a place to go like the car, we can manage. But if we have to fly somewhere and stay in a hotel, that's not happening. I wouldn't want to be in the room next to ours if he was having a tantrum.

[Anonymous]

My DC (now 8) is a a lot like you describe and has been for as long as I remember. We still are dealing with meltdowns as described above. DC is seeing a psychologist for cognitive behavioral therapy. But I can say that I am still confused about what it is. My guess right now (for my DC) is a combination of a very strong will, some sensory issues (noise, mostly) which may stem from high anxiety levels. DC's biggest fear seems to be not being able to control the situation - all situations all the time. Otherwise known as not getting your way. So it's so hard to differentiate between being a spoiled brat and genuinely not being able to cope. I'm sorry I can't give you the definitive answers. But I also have another DC who is nothing like this, and have seen my nieces and nephews grow up with nothing exactly like this. But, they each have their own issues.

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter to me too much what is causing it. The solution is the same, really. Give them the coping mechanisms as much as possible, get them help when needed. I think you just have to concentrate no the "how to deal with it" part more than the "what caused this" or "what label does it have" part.

Good luck

[Anonymous]

My son, just turned 3, also has meltdowns like those described. He can go for 15 minutes up to an hour, screaming, kicking, banging his head on the floor (ouch!), cannot speak or catch his breath. He almost seems possessed, and it seems entirely out of his control. At the end of one meltdown, he asked me to help him stop the hiccups, his breathing was so disorganized.

But he doesn't have these meltdowns frequently, sometimes 3 in a week, usually more like 3 in a month. I've looked up that list, separating a tantrum from a meltdown. But other versions of that list note that NT children have meltdowns as well as SN children. My DS doesn't seem like he needs an evaluation to me. But maybe it would be valuable?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My son, just turned 3, also has meltdowns like those described. He can go for 15 minutes up to an hour, screaming, kicking, banging his head on the floor (ouch!), cannot speak or catch his breath. He almost seems possessed, and it seems entirely out of his control. At the end of one meltdown, he asked me to help him stop the hiccups, his breathing was so disorganized.

But he doesn't have these meltdowns frequently, sometimes 3 in a week, usually more like 3 in a month. I've looked up that list, separating a tantrum from a meltdown. But other versions of that list note that NT children have meltdowns as well as SN children. My DS doesn't seem like he needs an evaluation to me. But maybe it would be valuable?

OP here---I'm dealing with this 3-4x/day. All 3yr olds are going to tantrum. For me, it's the frequency that's making me think there is an issue. If this was happening a few times a week or a month, I would assume it's normal 3yr old behavior.

[Anonymous]

Wait... Some kids don't have meltdowns?

For my first kid, they started around 16 months and peaked around 3.5-4 years. Now at age 5, I rarely see meltdowns, though tantrums are still in full effect.

My now-two year old also started having meltdowns around 15 months. She goes through phases sometimes where they get very frequent and severe, and then they get less intense again.

I honestly never even considered that either of them could be "on the spectrum."