Failing Schools Almost Impossible to "Turnaround"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It's "turn around," two words, when used as a verb OP. Not "turnaround" (noun).

There is a very small space. It simply hard to make out on your tablet.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would assume the issues facing most "failing schools" have more to do with poverty than the actual system. There is an ugly culture that is often associated with it. You can hire the best teachers in the world but little will change if students come from homes that do not value education. Until we can change that than those schools will continue to fail.

This.

In another decade or two, the poverty rate in DC will be roughly the same as the rest of the region. And the schools will be some of the best in the country. Gentrification works.

Only if you define "best" by how students score on standardized tests. These same schools may not be very good if judged by the quality of educational opportunities offered.

If you like the poverty stuff, go see Diane Ravitch in Brooklyn or on line. All she does is hurl names at her opposition and talk about "social context."

[Anonymous]

Too much burden is placed on schools and teachers to solve social problems. Children who grow up in single parent homes have disadvantages for which school can never correct or compensate.

Women who choose to have children without the benefit of marriage place those children at a disadvantage for the rest of their lives.

This is an issue which has now become generational, on an individual level the practice is inexcusable, and it is unlikely to ever change for hundreds of generations into the future.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would assume the issues facing most "failing schools" have more to do with poverty than the actual system. There is an ugly culture that is often associated with it. You can hire the best teachers in the world but little will change if students come from homes that do not value education. Until we can change that than those schools will continue to fail.

This.

In another decade or two, the poverty rate in DC will be roughly the same as the rest of the region. And the schools will be some of the best in the country. Gentrification works.

Only if you define "best" by how students score on standardized tests. These same schools may not be very good if judged by the quality of educational opportunities offered.

If you like the poverty stuff, go see Diane Ravitch in Brooklyn or on line. All she does is hurl names at her opposition and talk about "social context."

What names does she hurl?

[Anonymous]

Yes, I agree with the original thread title. Of course, it is impossible to turn around a failing school- by only looking at the school. Failing schools are often in communities with failing- well everything. Failing job rates, failing health care, failing at providing safe stable housing for kids. Failing in providing prenatal care. I am NOT suggesting that we have to address all these issues- but this is why schools in 'poor areas' fail. (For someone that will bring up charters, ok go ahead... talk about how the charters work with the same kids (they don't) and get the same results (they don't). You either have to embrace the entire community, think Harlem Childrens Zone in NYC, or throw your hands up and wait for the community to improve itself.
All kids want to learn, they do. And people go into teaching because they love kids. Sure there are some exceptions, but every job has terrible people- who eventually leave the profession.
If you want to fix failing schools schools- help the community. If you do not, and that is ok, just walk away.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would assume the issues facing most "failing schools" have more to do with poverty than the actual system. There is an ugly culture that is often associated with it. You can hire the best teachers in the world but little will change if students come from homes that do not value education. Until we can change that than those schools will continue to fail.

This.

In another decade or two, the poverty rate in DC will be roughly the same as the rest of the region. And the schools will be some of the best in the country. Gentrification works.

DC spends more money per student than any other district in the nation - throwing more money at the school system is not going to yield further results. The issues that remain are community and cultural issues that need to be addressed outside of the school system.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Yes, I agree with the original thread title. Of course, it is impossible to turn around a failing school- by only looking at the school. Failing schools are often in communities with failing- well everything. Failing job rates, failing health care, failing at providing safe stable housing for kids. Failing in providing prenatal care. I am NOT suggesting that we have to address all these issues- but this is why schools in 'poor areas' fail. (For someone that will bring up charters, ok go ahead... talk about how the charters work with the same kids (they don't) and get the same results (they don't). You either have to embrace the entire community, think Harlem Childrens Zone in NYC, or throw your hands up and wait for the community to improve itself.
All kids want to learn, they do. And people go into teaching because they love kids. Sure there are some exceptions, but every job has terrible people- who eventually leave the profession.
If you want to fix failing schools schools- help the community. If you do not, and that is ok, just walk away.

Sorry, almost all DC charters work with very disadvantaged populations. Several do not have 18-yr. olds attending 9th grade as a condition of their parole. That part is true.

[Anonymous]

The problem with the whole turnaround idea is that it breaks down education to a set of skills rather than knowledge (facts, word etymologies, vocabulary, books that matte read). Until we acknowledge there is a lot that these kids will never know in their home environment and figure out how to concentrate that knowledge, most will never have a fighting chance. Plus it is going to take a lot longer than we are ever willing to wait to test.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I would assume the issues facing most "failing schools" have more to do with poverty than the actual system. There is an ugly culture that is often associated with it. You can hire the best teachers in the world but little will change if students come from homes that do not value education. Until we can change that than those schools will continue to fail.

Exactly this^^.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: In another decade or two, the poverty rate in DC will be roughly the same as the rest of the region. And the schools will be some of the best in the country. Gentrification works.

Not necessarily. E.g. San Fran has had even more robust gentrification than DC for much longer yet its school system is not of of the country's best. Far from it. As long as resistance to academic tracking/ability grouping remains strong in middle schools in both cities, despite years of gentrification at warp speed, no stellar schools will result. Far-reaching policy changes must accompany demographic changes for "the best" to emerge. As long as schools toss high achievers and low achievers into the same classrooms before AP classes (as at Deal, Stuart Hobson, Hardy, Washington Latin and even BASIS) for political reasons, the results will remain lackluster.

[Anonymous]

Interesting. I remember also hearing that San Francisco has very little school choice leeway. Middle class parents will simply not use the system because they cannot maneuver to get their kids concentrated at a school so that they are a significant part if the school population

[Anonymous]

How can you change that culture of having households value education, if it is considered free-public education?

[Anonymous]

Some see DC as "progressive" as SF. Multi-generational DC is less so. Both towns have gay elites that run many things at the local level.

Good DC charter schools provide a welcoming and academically challenging environment for the adopted children (many of them Asian) of gay couples that few public schools outside of Ward 3 and the Hill provide for a variety of reasons.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would assume the issues facing most "failing schools" have more to do with poverty than the actual system. There is an ugly culture that is often associated with it. You can hire the best teachers in the world but little will change if students come from homes that do not value education. Until we can change that than those schools will continue to fail.

Exactly this^^.

This is exactly the Diane Ravitch "social context" school of thought and is completely debilitating. It logically leads to a "let the poor starve or go to the workhouses" approach.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would assume the issues facing most "failing schools" have more to do with poverty than the actual system. There is an ugly culture that is often associated with it. You can hire the best teachers in the world but little will change if students come from homes that do not value education. Until we can change that than those schools will continue to fail.

This.

In another decade or two, the poverty rate in DC will be roughly the same as the rest of the region. And the schools will be some of the best in the country. Gentrification works.

DC spends more money per student than any other district in the nation - throwing more money at the school system is not going to yield further results. The issues that remain are community and cultural issues that need to be addressed outside of the school system.

The numbers regarding per pupil spending are not comparable to any other district in the nation, so to say DC spends more per pupil is inaccurate when you are talking about how much is actually spent per pupil in individual schools. DC has to handle the responsibilities that are handled by most states in addition to traditionally local responsibilities. It also has extremely high expenses related to serving children with special needs. Because of the totally screwed up way DC used to handle services for children with special needs and a resulting court loss, it has become a place to move for families with children with special needs because they can get more very expensive services here.

I am not saying more money will solve the problem, I am just noting you leave a lot out.