Pro Choice Advocates

[Anonymous]

who cares, with the taxes coming next year no one will be able to afford an abortion

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Black and white views are not the hallmark of "much thoughtful, considered philosophical thinking."

In another abortion thread right before the election, I laid out out a number of scenarios and asked anti-choicers what would happen should Roe v. Wade no longer be the law of the land. One example was if a woman had a miscarriage at home, where would she need to go to prove that it wasn't self-inflicted? You know what I got in response? Crickets.

That's all you'll get, PP. I was writing my response to the poster who called me so many names when you posted yours. They can't bear to explain it, because like the goofy thinkers behind secession petitions, they haven't thought it through, nor can they. It'd be far nastier than they can contemplate, and that doesn't square with how they've always been taught the world is.

[Anonymous]

I'm not being snarky, please re-read my post. To some, this particular issue actually is black and white. It is a moral absolute. That is my entire point. There are scores of political issues that do not lend itself to black and white, many shades of gray or nuanced positions are more appropriate.

The point of my post was not to re-hash the very worn out pro-life, pro-choice discussion. My point was to point out that calling people immature because you disagree with them is pretty stupid.

Your opening sentence about "black and white views not being hallmarks...", if you read Augstine, Aquinas, Aristotle and more than a few other giants of philosophy, you will see that being deeply thoughtful and having some views that are absolute, are not at all inconsistent. That was my point.

[Anonymous]

abortions are down therefore pro-choicer need to increase abortions !!!

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57553119/u.s-abortion-rates-down-5-percent-during-great-recession-biggest-one-year-decrease-in-a-decade/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm not being snarky, please re-read my post. To some, this particular issue actually is black and white. It is a moral absolute. That is my entire point. There are scores of political issues that do not lend itself to black and white, many shades of gray or nuanced positions are more appropriate.

The point of my post was not to re-hash the very worn out pro-life, pro-choice discussion. My point was to point out that calling people immature because you disagree with them is pretty stupid.

Your opening sentence about "black and white views not being hallmarks...", if you read Augstine, Aquinas, Aristotle and more than a few other giants of philosophy, you will see that being deeply thoughtful and having some views that are absolute, are not at all inconsistent. That was my point.

Again, tell us about a world in which abortion is illegal. I say "illegal" rather than "doesn't exist," because there is no such world in which abortion doesn't exist. There is increased infanticide, there is more preventable death of women. Abortion will always be.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm not being snarky, please re-read my post. To some, this particular issue actually is black and white. It is a moral absolute. That is my entire point. There are scores of political issues that do not lend itself to black and white, many shades of gray or nuanced positions are more appropriate.

The point of my post was not to re-hash the very worn out pro-life, pro-choice discussion. My point was to point out that calling people immature because you disagree with them is pretty stupid.

Your opening sentence about "black and white views not being hallmarks...", if you read Augstine, Aquinas, Aristotle and more than a few other giants of philosophy, you will see that being deeply thoughtful and having some views that are absolute, are not at all inconsistent. That was my point.

Again, tell us about a world in which abortion is illegal. I say "illegal" rather than "doesn't exist," because there is no such world in which abortion doesn't exist. There is increased infanticide, there is more preventable death of women. Abortion will always be.

You are discussing abortion legality. I'm discussing abortion morality. "Abortion will always be"...yeah I get that. So will greed, rape, vanity, theft, gluttony, murder, etc. I understand the world is not Utopian. Do we agree in a Utopian world there are zero abortions?

[Anonymous]

You're missing the point entirely. How does the actual (not moral) reality of illegal abortion affect the actual (non-utopian) world in which we live? If I have an ectopic pregnancy, do I need to have a policeman verify it on the ultrasound, or would I also need a judge to certify the results before I could get the lifesaving surgery I need?

[Anonymous]

And again, crickets.

I hope this means all you "pro-lifers" are reconsidering the ramifications of your position.

But you're probably not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm not being snarky, please re-read my post. To some, this particular issue actually is black and white. It is a moral absolute. That is my entire point. There are scores of political issues that do not lend itself to black and white, many shades of gray or nuanced positions are more appropriate.

The point of my post was not to re-hash the very worn out pro-life, pro-choice discussion. My point was to point out that calling people immature because you disagree with them is pretty stupid.

Your opening sentence about "black and white views not being hallmarks...", if you read Augstine, Aquinas, Aristotle and more than a few other giants of philosophy, you will see that being deeply thoughtful and having some views that are absolute, are not at all inconsistent. That was my point.

Again, tell us about a world in which abortion is illegal. I say "illegal" rather than "doesn't exist," because there is no such world in which abortion doesn't exist. There is increased infanticide, there is more preventable death of women. Abortion will always be.

You are discussing abortion legality. I'm discussing abortion morality. "Abortion will always be"...yeah I get that. So will greed, rape, vanity, theft, gluttony, murder, etc. I understand the world is not Utopian. Do we agree in a Utopian world there are zero abortions?

And your and every other anti choicer's nattering about morality never gets politically active, does it? If I get pregnant with a baby with only a brain stem, I think abortion is far more moral than condemning my child to a life of ten minutes, ten days, a month (yes, there was one such Virginia kid who lived a few years; that is not the norm), myself, my husband and other children to go through an entire pregnancy waiting to watch our child/sibling die, and everyone else for having to pay for it. To "choose life" as it's so simplistically put in that instance, and so many others, is immoral to me. Moreover, when my biological family is complete, my husband and I look forward to adopting two or three child aged siblings from foster care. That, to me, is moral.

My questions about an imaginary world without abortion are relevant. See the recent Irish case. Your silence speaks for you.

[Anonymous]

So we make an exception for the life of the mother. That position is entirely consistent with pro-life beliefs. It is a monumental rarity that the life of the child/fetus/zygote actually poses a risk to the mother. But even the Pope would agree that a mother is not required to risk her life in order to give birth.

But hey...the fact that millions of babies in this country have been aborted because a pregnancy is inconvenient, that is OK with you guys. Whatever.

Here's this too, an actual majority of those babies are racial minorities. So this great champion of the underclass, Planned Parenthood, has a program in place that disparately targets for death little Afican American and minority babies. Yeah, it is the conservatives that are racists.

I'm done talking with you. This is not a productive conversation for either of us. You can assume I'm afraid to engage you and you hear the "crickets". Its actually that it is boring.

Signed,
An Anti Choicer

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So we make an exception for the life of the mother. That position is entirely consistent with pro-life beliefs. It is a monumental rarity that the life of the child/fetus/zygote actually poses a risk to the mother. But even the Pope would agree that a mother is not required to risk her life in order to give birth.

But hey...the fact that millions of babies in this country have been aborted because a pregnancy is inconvenient, that is OK with you guys. Whatever.

Here's this too, an actual majority of those babies are racial minorities. So this great champion of the underclass, Planned Parenthood, has a program in place that disparately targets for death little Afican American and minority babies. Yeah, it is the conservatives that are racists.

I'm done talking with you. This is not a productive conversation for either of us. You can assume I'm afraid to engage you and you hear the "crickets". Its actually that it is boring.

Signed,
An Anti Choicer

NP here. That racial charge would probably stick better if minorities actually voted Republican. Buuuuuuut they don't, and that makes your perception of racism a teeny bit suspect.

In any case if you are concerned about these minority babies, truly concerned, you should support free access to IUDs and contraceptive implants. Because an awful lot of them are teens and young adults who can't afford one.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So we make an exception for the life of the mother. That position is entirely consistent with pro-life beliefs. It is a monumental rarity that the life of the child/fetus/zygote actually poses a risk to the mother. But even the Pope would agree that a mother is not required to risk her life in order to give birth.

But hey...the fact that millions of babies in this country have been aborted because a pregnancy is inconvenient, that is OK with you guys. Whatever.

Here's this too, an actual majority of those babies are racial minorities. So this great champion of the underclass, Planned Parenthood, has a program in place that disparately targets for death little Afican American and minority babies. Yeah, it is the conservatives that are racists.

I'm done talking with you. This is not a productive conversation for either of us. You can assume I'm afraid to engage you and you hear the "crickets". Its actually that it is boring.

Signed,
An Anti Choicer

Read the piece in Slate today about the Irish tragedy, and that'll tell you why I think making abortion illegal with exceptions is stupid. Spin that out for me, then - tell me about those panels. Tell you what, when they have ED medication panels when someone else determines what happens in someone's private life, we'll revisit whether or not abortion panels are a good idea.

The Pope could give two hats about the mother's life. There was a nun excommunicated over allowing an abortion, something that I don't believe happened to any of the priests who spent decades preying on young children. http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=126985072

Which Planned Parenthood program "targets for death little African American and minority babies"? Are they driving through reservations and predominantly Black and Latino neighborhoods, spraying them with bullets? I missed that story somehow.

And it's not that boring if you're still checking back, you just don't have an answer. No anti choicer does.

[Anonymous]

I find imagining my ideal world fascinating, so I don't believe you when you say you find this boring. Agree with PP that you don't have any answers.

Here's another one: in your illegal-abortion fantasy world, who goes to jail, the mother who attempts to get an abortion or the doctor who can provide her one? Or both? For how long?

Or, can pregnant mothers be arrested for having a glass of wine? Eating unpasturized cheese? Not taking their prenatal vitamins?

Or, how will IVF work when the embryos have the same rights as the parents?

[Anonymous]

I do find it weird that technology has helped so many premature babies to be viable and thrive, of the same gestation age or younger than fetuses can be excised via partial-birth abortion. Anyone else find that overlap uncomfortable?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I do find it weird that technology has helped so many premature babies to be viable and thrive, of the same gestation age or younger than fetuses can be excised via partial-birth abortion. Anyone else find that overlap uncomfortable?

Not really. I have a lot of ethical questions about what "viability" and "thriving" actually are; for every 23 week preemie that is a "success" story, there are how many who end up with a quality of life that not many of us would choose. Moreover, second tri abortions aren't very common. If they make you uncomfortable, be aware that there is some evidence that barriers to first tri abortions increase the amount of second term abortions.