AP vs. IB for science/math/technology kid?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
One moment. Not terribly ambitious for well prepared kids. There are many kids (middle and high school) who take AP exams without even taking AP courses. This well known practise around the country is called "self-study". The PP is correct about scoring well on some of these AP tests as a cram jam. Many homeschoolers self-study for a bushel of these AP exams sans a formal AP course with outstanding results.

The strategy of doing the IB program for the depth and breadth and supplementing with strategic AP exams is one I had not even considered. Bright IB students would have no difficulty doing this. Afterall, history is history and physics is physics regardless of the petty labeling (e.g., honors, AP, IB).

There's a difference between a home-schooled kid, or kid at a non-IB HS taking additional AP exams, and a kid who already is pursuing an IB diploma doing so. Again, the data squarely dispels the notion that it's common for kids in this area who are already pursuing a full IB diploma to take a bunch of additional AP exams, and many of them are quite bright. What sounds good to you in theory as a parent (of, perhaps, young children) may be less appealing to a teenager with a full plate.

[Anonymous]

There's a difference between a home-schooled kid, or kid at a non-IB HS taking additional AP exams, and a kid who already is pursuing an IB diploma doing so. Again, the data squarely dispels the notion that it's common for kids in this area who are already pursuing a full IB diploma to take a bunch of additional AP exams, and many of them are quite bright. What sounds good to you in theory as a parent (of, perhaps, young children) may be less appealing to a teenager with a full plate.

There are are quite a few kids in the country that take AP exams (these kids include IB kids, kids in formal AP classes, middle school kids not in high school or formal AP classes, homeschoolers and kids that self-study for these exams). As long as the kid finds a high school administering these exams and pays the fee the kid sits for the test. This is not theory but practical reality. You should get more information about this if you doubt this. I cannot tell you the motivation for anyone taking an AP exam ... but it's done by IBers, non IBers, and individuals not even taking a bona fide AP course. I assure you it's the teenagers taking these tests and not the parents. Do you have any more questions or need any more information?

[Anonymous]

It's important to note, OP, that some colleges are no longer allowing students who took AP courses in high school to place out of college courses, no matter what the score. So, if your son is interested in a particular college, check on their policy with regards to AP classes.

[Anonymous]

My oldest is a math and science kid also. We will be placing into IB. He doesn't like writing and couldn't care less about philosophy and world views...but that is exactly why we think IB would be best for him. I know he will rise to the challenge and a math and science kid who has great writing skills and a holistic education (not one just loaded with AP math and science classes) is going to do much better in college and in life.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My oldest is a math and science kid also. We will be placing into IB. He doesn't like writing and couldn't care less about philosophy and world views...but that is exactly why we think IB would be best for him. I know he will rise to the challenge and a math and science kid who has great writing skills and a holistic education (not one just loaded with AP math and science classes) is going to do much better in college and in life.

Interesting. Never had the impression the math/science kids at TJ were short-changed because they were denied the benefits of a "programme" designed by a bunch of people in Geneva.

[Anonymous]

I would go for an IB diploma if your child can do that. What if he/she gets only a B, or even a C, in an AP course - that would bring their overall GPA way down.

Taking one or two, even four AP courses is overrated - schools look at GPA scores, standardized test scores, and schools/programs mostly - I mean, what admissions department has the time to micro-analyze every class an applicant took and the grade achieved? They don't. But they would notice an IB grad.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My oldest is a math and science kid also. We will be placing into IB. He doesn't like writing and couldn't care less about philosophy and world views...but that is exactly why we think IB would be best for him. I know he will rise to the challenge and a math and science kid who has great writing skills and a holistic education (not one just loaded with AP math and science classes) is going to do much better in college and in life.

Interesting. Never had the impression the math/science kids at TJ were short-changed because they were denied the benefits of a "programme" designed by a bunch of people in Geneva.

PP here - TJ does speak for itself. That would be a #1 choice. (like I said, they do look at schools/programs, and TJ is it)

[Anonymous]

How does a college admission officer know that a student has actually been awarded an IB diploma? I thought the IB diploma required at least 3 HL courses, and the HL courses are two year courses, taken over 11th and 12th grade? Isn't the IB diploma awarded after college admission decisions are made?

http://www.fcps.edu/is/aap/pdfs/presentations/APandIBInfoNightPresentation.pdf

[Anonymous]

OP here - thank you for the wonderful advice and for specifics about the AP and IB programs. I think I am leaning towards Madison as the best fit for us.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I would go for an IB diploma if your child can do that. What if he/she gets only a B, or even a C, in an AP course - that would bring their overall GPA way down.

Taking one or two, even four AP courses is overrated - schools look at GPA scores, standardized test scores, and schools/programs mostly - I mean, what admissions department has the time to micro-analyze every class an applicant took and the grade achieved? They don't. But they would notice an IB grad.

AP courses are weighted, and schools are going to look at grades, the rigor of the courses taken and the high school's reputation.

An IB diploma is a plus, but IB diploma candidates have no advantage over students who've taken multiple AP courses and done well. If your kid gets an IB diploma, but has lots of Bs and Cs, he or she isn't getting into a top 20 school. And, while it is changing, US colleges and universities are still more likely to credit AP courses.

[Anonymous]

It's important to note, OP, that some colleges are no longer allowing students who took AP courses in high school to place out of college courses, no matter what the score. So, if your son is interested in a particular college, check on their policy with regards to AP classes.

It's important to note there are a multitude of reasons to take an AP subject exam even though not in a formal AP course. High AP scores in history, economics, languages and history form an impressive resume for students loaded with AP courses in math and sciences. In my days, I sat for the AP English and US and European history exams without benefit of an "honors" or "AP course". The two 5s and a 4 score came in handy.

Some students are not interested in placing our of subjects in college or university just simply getting out of the meat market introductory courses into a more seminar oriented course in the same subject. This still works for many colleges with students with sterling academic records and high AP scores. Even some students use the preparation for the AP exam to cover prerequisite subject material for other courses they could not fit into their middle or high school curricula. There are a myriad of reasons why individuals sit for these AP course exams (+ or - taking a formal AP course in the subject area).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My oldest is a math and science kid also. We will be placing into IB. He doesn't like writing and couldn't care less about philosophy and world views...but that is exactly why we think IB would be best for him. I know he will rise to the challenge and a math and science kid who has great writing skills and a holistic education (not one just loaded with AP math and science classes) is going to do much better in college and in life.

Interesting. Never had the impression the math/science kids at TJ were short-changed because they were denied the benefits of a "programme" designed by a bunch of people in Geneva.

No one is talking about TJ. Just AP vs. IB. TJ is a completely different program than just another typical AP high school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would go for an IB diploma if your child can do that. What if he/she gets only a B, or even a C, in an AP course - that would bring their overall GPA way down.

Taking one or two, even four AP courses is overrated - schools look at GPA scores, standardized test scores, and schools/programs mostly - I mean, what admissions department has the time to micro-analyze every class an applicant took and the grade achieved? They don't. But they would notice an IB grad.

AP courses are weighted, and schools are going to look at grades, the rigor of the courses taken and the high school's reputation.

An IB diploma is a plus, but IB diploma candidates have no advantage over students who've taken multiple AP courses and done well. If your kid gets an IB diploma, but has lots of Bs and Cs, he or she isn't getting into a top 20 school. And, while it is changing, US colleges and universities are still more likely to credit AP courses.

AP and IB courses are weighted, but colleges typically request an unweighted GPA...so while there is a benefit in that colleges like to see that a student is persuing academic rigor there is no real GPA benefit to taking these courses.

[Anonymous]

I suspect if your unweighted grade point average is very high and you came from a no name school (not familiar to admission committees at top schools -- e.g., homeschool or podunk high school) -- a slate of AP scores of 5 will send a strong message to these admission committees (whether you self-studied or not)?

[Anonymous]

It's important to note there are a multitude of reasons to take an AP subject exam even though not in a formal AP course. High AP scores in history, economics, languages and history form an impressive resume for students loaded with AP courses in math and sciences. In my days, I sat for the AP English and US and European history exams without benefit of an "honors" or "AP course". The two 5s and a 4 score came in handy.

Some students are not interested in placing our of subjects in college or university just simply getting out of the meat market introductory courses into a more seminar oriented course in the same subject. This still works for many colleges with students with sterling academic records and high AP scores. Even some students use the preparation for the AP exam to cover prerequisite subject material for other courses they could not fit into their middle or high school curricula. There are a myriad of reasons why individuals sit for these AP course exams (+ or - taking a formal AP course in the subject area).

Poster you are quoting.

We don't disagree. There are many many good reasons to take AP courses or exams. But, while it is true that there are colleges that allow high AP scores to place out of introductory courses, this is not as common as it was as recently as ten years ago. Colleges are reluctant to allow place outs for many reasons, including whether or not the AP exam adequately covers what the college believes is the core knowledge to advance to the next sequence course in the major.

I would not suggest that a student avoid an AP (except, perhaps, in stats) class or exam. But if they are counting on placing out of a class, at a particular college in a desired major, they should check the school's policies. I work in admissions. Whether or not to phase out AP credits in certain fields is a very hot topic in the field, and parents need to be informed with regards to trends in higher ed policy.