interesting article about college admissions

[Anonymous]

These days, schools like Brown and Columbia also take only 7-10%, in fact one recent article I saw suggested Columbia is harder to get into than Princeton. Schools like Penn, Cornell and Swarthmore take 10-16% percent. http://money.cnn.com/2012/03/30/pf/college/acceptance_rates_ivy_league/index.htm

With odds like these, even kids with great grades and SATs will find that schools like Columbia are a "reach", if only because there are so many equally qualified kids applying. So you need to choose your reach schools carefully, and if you're only applying to 3 reach (and 3 target and 3 safety, or whatever), then I can totally see applying to Brown and Swarthmore as reaches but not HYP, if you think Brown is a better fit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Or maybe she's not eager to have her kid surrounded by kids who have been raised by parents with attitudes like yours. If she gets in, it must be because she was a legacy; if she doesn't, she's a loser whose Mom must have been lying. Charming.

You might try to re-read my post again after you have had some morning coffee (that was quite a hostile response). Also re-read the article, if you really care. My ultimate point is that IF the girl is a good academic candidate (excellent grades AND scores -- and the article does not mention test scores at all); and IF the mom believes Princeton would be a good option for her; THEN the mother is being defeatist, especially given the documented advantage to legacies in college admissions. There's no "if she gets in" going on here -- the mother has asserted she will dissuade or has dissuaded her daughter from applying.

Because your average Princeton grad knows very well the advantage of legacy status, this suggests to me that, as is not uncommon in "first person" articles designed to make a larger point (value for kids who show work ethic and aren't over-programmed), the author is massaging the facts (i.e., selecting emphasizing some but not others) to help her make that larger point.

And I was flagging the "IF the Mom believes Princeton would be a good option for her" issue (a question you didn't seem to be considering in your original post) and, specifically, pointing out that the question of good options isn't just a "can you do this" question but a "is this what you want" question. The kid values a balanced life; the parent's claim/perception is that Princeton is full of kids who want success at any cost (and that the costs, both literal and psychic, have escalated to an insane level) and whose definition of success (admissions, class rank) has become divorced from the qualities/characteristics/experiences that enable people to live satisfying lives once they're out of school.

Sorry that I was harsh -- it was pre-coffee and I was reacting to two posts in a row that followed the same "if you can (or even might be able to), then you should/must" logic wrt Ivy League colleges and your post seemed to ratchet that up a step further ("if you don't, it's probably because you secretly know that you can't and you're trying to obscure that fact"). But my point is a substantive one. The whole "dare to dream/reach for the brass ring" thing becomes not an inspiration but a prison when the goals and prizes don't really have anything to do with the values, interests, or desires of the kid being urged on by his/her parents.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Or maybe she's not eager to have her kid surrounded by kids who have been raised by parents with attitudes like yours. If she gets in, it must be because she was a legacy; if she doesn't, she's a loser whose Mom must have been lying. Charming.

At our school, when helping make the college list for the applying students, the college counselors often suggest that the student include the parent's alma mater as an option, including as a "reach school," because of the legacy effect. There are also students who are legacies at a particular college for whom that college is not a "reach." But with admissions rates at Ivies between 6-8 percent, by definition such schools must reject many highly qualified applicants. Thus, it makes a lot of sense for even the most objectively qualified applicants to try to leverage legacy status. It's not a badge of dishonor.

Never quite thought of it like that. LOL! We always wanted DS to attend the same Ivy as his father, grandfather, great grand... Even before he was born.

[Anonymous]

10:42 -- you win the prize for the best VBA/faux naievite post of the year! Even more disingenuous than the OP on the "my, my, what are we going to do when my special snowflake goes to school and rubs elbows with the progeny of the rich and famous elite???!!! thread.
Really, you never imagined that some people might look at your kid and say he/she got in to the Ancient 8 school because of legacy status? This reminds me of Ann Richards' comment about GHWBush: "He was born on 3rd base, but thinks he hit a triple."

[Anonymous]

Oh brother. No kidding people will think he got in b/c of legacy status. He probably WILL get in b/c of legacy status. We think he will get in b/c of legacy status and the fact that we are big donors. His chances of getting in w/o it are minuscule like everyone else.

[Anonymous]

We're gonna need a really big, flashing neon VBA sign for your 2nd post. So nice that you can be big donors. BTW, my oldest, a Princeton legacy by virtue of DH, got in without our contributing big bucks, though he did rock the SATs. Fortunately, he has cultivated a nice sense of self-deprecating humor to avoid being an insufferable a-hole. I'd work on that if I were you, PP.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We're gonna need a really big, flashing neon VBA sign for your 2nd post. So nice that you can be big donors. BTW, my oldest, a Princeton legacy by virtue of DH, got in without our contributing big bucks, though he did rock the SATs. Fortunately, he has cultivated a nice sense of self-deprecating humor to avoid being an insufferable a-hole. I'd work on that if I were you, PP.

Apparently he got that from his dad as well...

[Anonymous]

And I presume your child will inherit your sense of entitlement.

[Anonymous]

Hey, Princeton legacy --- how do you define rocking the SATs? 2400, 2250 or 2100? Curious. --- another Ivy grad, with legacy hopeful child

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We're gonna need a really big, flashing neon VBA sign for your 2nd post. So nice that you can be big donors. BTW, my oldest, a Princeton legacy by virtue of DH, got in without our contributing big bucks, though he did rock the SATs. Fortunately, he has cultivated a nice sense of self-deprecating humor to avoid being an insufferable a-hole. I'd work on that if I were you, PP.

So he got in b/c of his legacy status. I always assume if someone is a legacy at an Ivy they got in b/c they are a legacy and so does everyone else including most legacies except you apparently. Being a big donor is another plus. Get over yourself.

[Anonymous]

And as for your son with rock'n SATs, I sure Princeton turned down many others with SATs just as high if not higher who didn't have the good luck of having a father who went there.

[Anonymous]

HYP is not the goal in our household. A top 25 school is the focus. We live in a prominent overseas country, our kids attend a broadminded international school. Their classmates and their parents seem to be far more global in their thoughts and actions as compared to the typical middle/upper middle income American family. So, I invite friends and families with kids to come visit and experience what's happening out here; but, none of them have taken advantage of my offer in two years. I even offered to host their kids for Christmas breaks, and other school breaks in order to give their kids a different experience/perspective, so far, no takers.

There are disadvantages to living overseas, but the advantages are great as well. My kids are smart enough academically, but most importantly, they are otherwise a lot more sophisticated and insightful about the 'real' world. Our overseas living experience has taught us, the kids don't have to reach for HYP to get a better commend of their future. They're preparing themselves according to what we're seeing and experiencing out here. I think the changes that are happening in the American educational system have more to do with what's happening globally than just the changes that are happening in US society. So I don't see things going back to the way they were, as much as the writer wishes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:HYP is not the goal in our household. A top 25 school is the focus. We live in a prominent overseas country, our kids attend a broadminded international school. Their classmates and their parents seem to be far more global in their thoughts and actions as compared to the typical middle/upper middle income American family. So, I invite friends and families with kids to come visit and experience what's happening out here; but, none of them have taken advantage of my offer in two years. I even offered to host their kids for Christmas breaks, and other school breaks in order to give their kids a different experience/perspective, so far, no takers.

There are disadvantages to living overseas, but the advantages are great as well. My kids are smart enough academically, but most importantly, they are otherwise a lot more sophisticated and insightful about the 'real' world. Our overseas living experience has taught us, the kids don't have to reach for HYP to get a better commend of their future. They're preparing themselves according to what we're seeing and experiencing out here. I think the changes that are happening in the American educational system have more to do with what's happening globally than just the changes that are happening in US society. So I don't see things going back to the way they were, as much as the writer wishes.

NP here. You get the award for insufferable self-righteousness.

Signed, another mom who has lived overseas and am not aiming at HYP either

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:HYP is not the goal in our household. A top 25 school is the focus. We live in a prominent overseas country, our kids attend a broadminded international school. Their classmates and their parents seem to be far more global in their thoughts and actions as compared to the typical middle/upper middle income American family. So, I invite friends and families with kids to come visit and experience what's happening out here; but, none of them have taken advantage of my offer in two years. I even offered to host their kids for Christmas breaks, and other school breaks in order to give their kids a different experience/perspective, so far, no takers.

There are disadvantages to living overseas, but the advantages are great as well. My kids are smart enough academically, but most importantly, they are otherwise a lot more sophisticated and insightful about the 'real' world. Our overseas living experience has taught us, the kids don't have to reach for HYP to get a better commend of their future. They're preparing themselves according to what we're seeing and experiencing out here. I think the changes that are happening in the American educational system have more to do with what's happening globally than just the changes that are happening in US society. So I don't see things going back to the way they were, as much as the writer wishes.

NP here. You get the award for insufferable self-righteousness.

Signed, another mom who has lived overseas and am not aiming at HYP either

I didn't find this post insufferable or self-righteous. But it did remind me of Barack Obama's claim in 2008 that he was well-qualified in foreign affairs because he lived overseas as a child. That was almost on the same level as "I can see Russia from my house."

[Anonymous]

No really, it's insufferable. The little slap about nobody wanting to visit her overseas -- maybe her friends have their own Christmas plans, or maybe they can't afford $900 round trip fares for a 1-week visit (or maybe they too think she's insufferable, perhaps in other ways).

Frankly, her kids are hanging out with rich diplomats' and financiers' kids in a little ghetto of privilege called "The American School of Country X" (my DH attended several of these in various countries) or some such thing. This talk about "the real world" and "preparing themselves according to what we're seeing and experiencing out here" in London or Brussels or whatever is BS. My kids have been to Soweto and are headed to another 3rd world poverty trap, and that's the real world.