Takoma and Eastern Magnets

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Have a look at the 2010-2011 school safety statistics on the MCPS website. Here are some examples:

Hoover MS in Potomac had three physical threats and one verbal threat reported, along with 3 bullying incidents.

Cabin John MS in Potomac had suspensions for the following: 3 arson/fire/explosives suspensions, 6 attacks, 5 disrespect/insubordination, 1 theft, 2 threats, and 3 weapons. There was one sexual incident, and 20 confirmed reports of bullying.

Eastern had 0 fire/arson, 20 attacks, 3 dangerous substances, 15 fighting, 7 threats, and 1 weapons suspensions. There was one sexual incident, and 1 confirmed bullying report.

Takoma Park's suspensions were: 1 arson/explosive, 10 attack, 1 dangerous substance, 8 disrespect/insubordination, 5 fighting, 3 theft, 4 threat, 2 weapons. There were no sexual incidents and no confirmed bullying reports.

Tilden MS in Rockville had 8 attack suspensions, 4 fighting, 1 threat, 1 weapons, and 3 confirmed bullying reports.

You might draw a couple of conclusions from this, such as that there is more fighting at Eastern and more bullying at Hoover. (Or you could draw conclusions about what's reported and how it's characterized.)

My point is, though, that every MS has issues, including those in so-called "nicer" areas of MoCo., and that Eastern's don't seem to be worse Takoma's.

My guess is that at Eastern the kids who are fighting and cursing are black and hispanic and therefore seem more threatening to some kids. Is your child more likely to get into a fight there? No, probably even less so because the two populations of students are kept pretty separate. Is your child more likely to see a physical fight? Maybe, but it could also just be perception.

I wouldn't call "3 bullying incidents," "more bullying." I'd be interested to know how bullying is defined and how/whether it is reported. I have a niece at TPMS and I know there is bullying there, as anywhere - but it is not cited in that list.

I will note this, based on the above snapshot: Eastern is the only school with double-digit fighting and attacks incidents listed. And none of the other schools (in this list anyway) cite arrests for drug crimes (thinking of the marijuana one at Eastern recently, which I've heard about from other sources as well).

[Anonymous]

Well, I think you are cherry-picking. Sure, Eastern has higher fighting and attack numbers. The non magnet kids are much more needy in terms of SES level and it can't be denied that this is a factor. This is a low SES urban school and not all will FEEL safe there.

But PPs are making it sound like these incidents don't occur anywhere else. And that's just not so. Cabin John had 3 weapons incidents and TPMS had 2, which I consider more serious than some kid with weed in the boy's bathroom, which is what happened at Eastern. So these things can happen anywhere. And let's face it, if you are concerned about drugs, this will be an issue in west county schools as well!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Have a look at the 2010-2011 school safety statistics on the MCPS website. Here are some examples:

Hoover MS in Potomac had three physical threats and one verbal threat reported, along with 3 bullying incidents.

Cabin John MS in Potomac had suspensions for the following: 3 arson/fire/explosives suspensions, 6 attacks, 5 disrespect/insubordination, 1 theft, 2 threats, and 3 weapons. There was one sexual incident, and 20 confirmed reports of bullying.

Eastern had 0 fire/arson, 20 attacks, 3 dangerous substances, 15 fighting, 7 threats, and 1 weapons suspensions. There was one sexual incident, and 1 confirmed bullying report.

Takoma Park's suspensions were: 1 arson/explosive, 10 attack, 1 dangerous substance, 8 disrespect/insubordination, 5 fighting, 3 theft, 4 threat, 2 weapons. There were no sexual incidents and no confirmed bullying reports.

Tilden MS in Rockville had 8 attack suspensions, 4 fighting, 1 threat, 1 weapons, and 3 confirmed bullying reports.

You might draw a couple of conclusions from this, such as that there is more fighting at Eastern and more bullying at Hoover. (Or you could draw conclusions about what's reported and how it's characterized.)

My point is, though, that every MS has issues, including those in so-called "nicer" areas of MoCo., and that Eastern's don't seem to be worse Takoma's.

My guess is that at Eastern the kids who are fighting and cursing are black and hispanic and therefore seem more threatening to some kids. Is your child more likely to get into a fight there? No, probably even less so because the two populations of students are kept pretty separate. Is your child more likely to see a physical fight? Maybe, but it could also just be perception.

It is a mistake to believe as this PP states that "the two populations of students are kept pretty separate" at Eastern. Magnet students in 6th grade take 4 classes together -- social studies, english, media and reading (a very few don't take this last one). In 7th and 8th grade magnet students have only 3 classes together. Magnet students are together with the comprehensive students in PE/Health, Science and Math and any electives. Even higher courses like GT science or advanced math have comprehensive students. Magnet and comprehensive students eat lunch together and walk the same hallways during each class change and before/after school. There is plenty of inter-mixing between magnet and comprehensive students; this is, I believe, as it should be. My DC has made friends with some comprehensive students.

While it may be true that magnet kids spend classroom time with kids (magnet or comprehensive) who are the "better" students and thus less likely to be "troublemakers". It is also true that security issues at the school happen primarily OUTSIDE of the classroom itself when kids are not under the direct, planned supervision of teachers.

[Anonymous]

PP here. My child is at Eastern so I feel like I can address this. And I will say that DC has lots of friends at Eastern who don't attend the magnet, because he went to a feeder elementary. I am only familiar with 6th grade though.

DC has four magnet classes, as mentioned above. Due to scheduling issues, his GT science class is all magnet students except for one. He takes IM for math and it is mostly magnet students (and an advanced class so the kids tend to be serious about math and therefore paying attention, etc.).

This leaves gym and lunch, which are a mix of magnet and comprehensive students. I would characterize this as "pretty separate."

I am, I should point out, defending Eastern as a safe school and agree that the classes are safe. I am extremely comfortable sending my child there. He has witnessed some fights etc. but I don't think it's a problem.

[Anonymous]

It's funny to read all this - I went to the magnet at Eastern about 20 years ago and then on to RM and I think everyone was worrying about the same exact things. School conflict, etc. pretty much rolled off me. In jr high, in particular, if you don't engage because you're in different classes or whatever, it doesn't affect you much. I adored the program and somewhat regret not going to Blair for the CAP program. It's junior high - I'd vote for letting your kid pick which program seems most fun.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:^^^PP here, sorry - I should have said, thank you.

To this PP (with the child who feels unsafe): If you could have chosen either magnet, would you have chosen Takoma, knowing what you know now?

The choice for our family was between home middle school and Eastern. Pros for Eastern are definitely more challenge academically -- better writing teaching, more interesting project-based work, emphasis on subject matters DC loves. But, honestly, I underestimated the daily psychic wear and tear my DC feels from the negative behavioral environment.

In retrospect, as a parent, I kind of drank the kool-aid about Eastern and didn't listen so much to the few voices of caution I heard in my extensive research on the school.

I think what makes me saddest when I look at this thread, is that many comments minimize what's going on at Eastern -- by confining problems to the comprehensive program, by saying that the statistics don't represent what they appear to represent on the surface, by assuring everyone that the administration has it "handled", or by a sort of 'blame the victim' approach implying that negative behavior doesn't bother most students just a few weak kids. It makes me sad because if one can't acknowledge a problem one can't fix it. Eastern has the potential to be a much better school for both comprehensive and magnet kids. But that will not happen if parents don't create higher expectations for the school, work to improve the environment, and hold the school administration accountable.

Would I have chosen our home school for DC#1 knowing what I know now? Perhaps. At a minimum we would have prepared our child for Eastern far differently. DC#2 has already expressed an interest in Eastern. If it came down to it, I would not permit him to apply.

[Anonymous]

Eastern parent here. I wasn't trying to minimize the environment, but rather to stave off the inevitable pearl-clucthing that happens when some parents contemplate sending their child from, say, Bethesda over to eastern Silver Spring.

Your child's reaction seems out of synch with all the kids I know in the program, including my own. This is not to say that it doesn't happen but that, for most kids, it's not a make-or-break issue.

I am also interested in the fact that you think parents are not holding the admin accountable or somehow have lowered expectations for the school. Let's be brutally honest: the comprehensive program has many kids who are from low SES families, many who barely speak English, etc. etc.. The social environment that these kids come from is what creates this kind of behavior, and no amount of "creating higher expectations" is going to change that. I'd like to know what you think the admin could do differently that would make these issues improve.

I will admit that the vast differences in the two school populations mean that my kid isn't interested in most after school activities, dances, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^^^PP here, sorry - I should have said, thank you.

To this PP (with the child who feels unsafe): If you could have chosen either magnet, would you have chosen Takoma, knowing what you know now?

The choice for our family was between home middle school and Eastern. Pros for Eastern are definitely more challenge academically -- better writing teaching, more interesting project-based work, emphasis on subject matters DC loves. But, honestly, I underestimated the daily psychic wear and tear my DC feels from the negative behavioral environment.

In retrospect, as a parent, I kind of drank the kool-aid about Eastern and didn't listen so much to the few voices of caution I heard in my extensive research on the school.

I think what makes me saddest when I look at this thread, is that many comments minimize what's going on at Eastern -- by confining problems to the comprehensive program, by saying that the statistics don't represent what they appear to represent on the surface, by assuring everyone that the administration has it "handled", or by a sort of 'blame the victim' approach implying that negative behavior doesn't bother most students just a few weak kids. It makes me sad because if one can't acknowledge a problem one can't fix it. Eastern has the potential to be a much better school for both comprehensive and magnet kids. But that will not happen if parents don't create higher expectations for the school, work to improve the environment, and hold the school administration accountable.

Would I have chosen our home school for DC#1 knowing what I know now? Perhaps. At a minimum we would have prepared our child for Eastern far differently. DC#2 has already expressed an interest in Eastern. If it came down to it, I would not permit him to apply.

Thanks. We are considering Eastern too, but I am not liking what I am hearing and seeing there. There are too many things to worry about and we are starting to think they outweigh the benefits of the curriculum, peers, etc.

[Anonymous]

Yes, it's a pretty hairy environment, really.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Have a look at the 2010-2011 school safety statistics on the MCPS website. Here are some examples:

Hoover MS in Potomac had three physical threats and one verbal threat reported, along with 3 bullying incidents.

Cabin John MS in Potomac had suspensions for the following: 3 arson/fire/explosives suspensions, 6 attacks, 5 disrespect/insubordination, 1 theft, 2 threats, and 3 weapons. There was one sexual incident, and 20 confirmed reports of bullying.

Eastern had 0 fire/arson, 20 attacks, 3 dangerous substances, 15 fighting, 7 threats, and 1 weapons suspensions. There was one sexual incident, and 1 confirmed bullying report.

Takoma Park's suspensions were: 1 arson/explosive, 10 attack, 1 dangerous substance, 8 disrespect/insubordination, 5 fighting, 3 theft, 4 threat, 2 weapons. There were no sexual incidents and no confirmed bullying reports.

Tilden MS in Rockville had 8 attack suspensions, 4 fighting, 1 threat, 1 weapons, and 3 confirmed bullying reports.

You might draw a couple of conclusions from this, such as that there is more fighting at Eastern and more bullying at Hoover. (Or you could draw conclusions about what's reported and how it's characterized.)

My point is, though, that every MS has issues, including those in so-called "nicer" areas of MoCo., and that Eastern's don't seem to be worse Takoma's.

My guess is that at Eastern the kids who are fighting and cursing are black and hispanic and therefore seem more threatening to some kids. Is your child more likely to get into a fight there? No, probably even less so because the two populations of students are kept pretty separate. Is your child more likely to see a physical fight? Maybe, but it could also just be perception.

I wouldn't call "3 bullying incidents," "more bullying." I'd be interested to know how bullying is defined and how/whether it is reported. I have a niece at TPMS and I know there is bullying there, as anywhere - but it is not cited in that list.

I will note this, based on the above snapshot: Eastern is the only school with double-digit fighting and attacks incidents listed. And none of the other schools (in this list anyway) cite arrests for drug crimes (thinking of the marijuana one at Eastern recently, which I've heard about from other sources as well).

Whatever one thinks about interpreting these stats, it should be noted that they only represent OUT OF SCHOOL suspensions. Fighting and physical attacks carry minimum penalties of "parent conference" (far short of out-of-school suspension). My own child has reported seeing kids shoved around physically by another student, while a teacher was watching who did nothing. Physical altercations definitely go unreported at Eastern. When not totally ignored by teachers, "consequences" can often be just a verbal warning, and even when reported up to the "authorities" often aren't treated seriously enough and reports of these events to the parent body are minimal.

Similarly, reports of bullying only go on the schools at a glance sheet if a parent or student fills in the official MCPS bullying form. My child has reported a number of sad stories about kids being bullied in different ways. The most recent was about a kid with a physical difference who my child described as being relentlessly bullied by 2 girls until he was provoked to respond physically. Guess who got in trouble? There's really no effective way to report bullying at Eastern (especially if, as a student, you witness something, but don't really know the names of the students involved). The bullying form is supposed to be filled out by the victim, it seems.

Whatever you think about the stats, it's probably fair to say that the number they provide should be viewed as a "floor" and not a ceiling on violence at Eastern.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:PP here. My child is at Eastern so I feel like I can address this. And I will say that DC has lots of friends at Eastern who don't attend the magnet, because he went to a feeder elementary. I am only familiar with 6th grade though.

DC has four magnet classes, as mentioned above. Due to scheduling issues, his GT science class is all magnet students except for one. He takes IM for math and it is mostly magnet students (and an advanced class so the kids tend to be serious about math and therefore paying attention, etc.).

This leaves gym and lunch, which are a mix of magnet and comprehensive students. I would characterize this as "pretty separate."

I am, I should point out, defending Eastern as a safe school and agree that the classes are safe. I am extremely comfortable sending my child there. He has witnessed some fights etc. but I don't think it's a problem.

Your DC's experience may not be typical. Mine is in a "GT" science class which is 60% or more comprehensive students. The quality of the class is very low. Even my DC, who is not interested in science at all, views it as boring and a joke (so I know it must be pretty painful to sit through) and pretty out of control. Kids wander in, out and around during class and cheat relentlessly on assignments and exams.

[Anonymous]

My kid, who is at Eastern in the magnet, told me something interesting today: that there is a program at Eastern for kids who have been behavior issues at other schools. He says there are a couple of classrooms where these kids are, and that most of the fighting and other similar behavior is from these kids. He said that the magnet and comprehensive kids do the normal middle school stuff but the real wild misbehavior comes from kids who are sent to Eastern from around the county for this program.

He told me that one of his teachers explained this when students in the magnet were asking why so-and-so didn't get into trouble for his behavior. The teacher explained about this program and said that those kids had different kinds of discipline plans and that it wasn't always obvious because the school wanted to be discreet, but that they were addressed with those individual students.

I looked and can find no reference to this but I thought it was interesting that his teacher told them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My kid, who is at Eastern in the magnet, told me something interesting today: that there is a program at Eastern for kids who have been behavior issues at other schools. He says there are a couple of classrooms where these kids are, and that most of the fighting and other similar behavior is from these kids. He said that the magnet and comprehensive kids do the normal middle school stuff but the real wild misbehavior comes from kids who are sent to Eastern from around the county for this program.

He told me that one of his teachers explained this when students in the magnet were asking why so-and-so didn't get into trouble for his behavior. The teacher explained about this program and said that those kids had different kinds of discipline plans and that it wasn't always obvious because the school wanted to be discreet, but that they were addressed with those individual students.

I looked and can find no reference to this but I thought it was interesting that his teacher told them.

Interesting. If this is true, it should be public information.

We went to the orientation and are not sending DC to Eastern in the fall. Too many cons, not enough pros to compensate for that.

[Anonymous]

My kid is at TPMS, where there have been a few gang members. I've heard that almost every MoCo MS and HS has some gang activity.

But honestly, it hasn't been an issue at all for DC. It's not like the gang members are checking your kid for the right tat at the door. The gang members will probably not be in your kid's magnet class and, if they are in the magnet, this means their behavior in the classroom isn't likely to be a problem. A year or two ago somebody tagged the back of the TPMS school building, but again, this didn't affect the magnet kids' experience in the classroom, or even out of the classroom. DC tells me that most TPMS kids look down on the gang members as losers, generally short losers, who need to join something. Which, I suppose, is a pretty good assessment.

I'm definitely glad I didn't let the reports of gang activity at TPMS deter us from sending DC, because the program is fantastic. I can't speak for Eastern, but I would expect much the same holds true re magnet kids being fairly untouched by any violence. The kids I know who went to Eastern are all graduated without being personally affected by physical violence, and they seem to have loved the program.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My kid, who is at Eastern in the magnet, told me something interesting today: that there is a program at Eastern for kids who have been behavior issues at other schools. He says there are a couple of classrooms where these kids are, and that most of the fighting and other similar behavior is from these kids. He said that the magnet and comprehensive kids do the normal middle school stuff but the real wild misbehavior comes from kids who are sent to Eastern from around the county for this program.

He told me that one of his teachers explained this when students in the magnet were asking why so-and-so didn't get into trouble for his behavior. The teacher explained about this program and said that those kids had different kinds of discipline plans and that it wasn't always obvious because the school wanted to be discreet, but that they were addressed with those individual students.

I looked and can find no reference to this but I thought it was interesting that his teacher told them.

It is true that there is a program at EMS for kids with emotional disabilities and behavioral issues. Kids who need special support for these kinds of problems are grouped together in a single school in the cluster. EMS is the cluster middle school for this program, which is referenced on the school info sheet which can be found on the MCPS website on the schools at a glance page.

FWIW, our DC's perception of misbehavior at school is quite different and that it's not fair to scapegoat this program for the overall discipline problems at EMS.