Would you move your child out of a language immersion program

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:PP here to clarify my comment about surfing special programs and how that diminishes immersion in particular.

I don't doubt the sincerity of posters on this list. It is very true that immersion is not suited to students who have learning issues and may even mask them; the attrition in one of my kid's classes due to processing/dyslexia/other issues approached 10%. My comments had to do with kids who leave the program for HCG or middle school magnets in grades 4 to 6.

And lets be honest: enrollment for full immersion, HGC, and magnet programs is not even close to the county average which would be 20% FARMs (although 10 years my oldest's elementary immersion program was much more nearly representative). These are insider's programs that require parents to navigate the application process and continue to favor the insider and their siblings in the case of immersion. HCG and middle school magnets have outright barriers to entry in the form of selective testing and parent essays.

While it is true that kids who exit the program leave behind smaller classes that are also likely to be more diverse in the wake, it is my opinion (and I would guess that of the Board members) that the high SES of the parents exercising their options for HGC/magnets add to the appearance that immersion is a public private program. Diversity has decreased over time and attrition has increased as more magnet seats have been added. Because immersion leads to higher performance across demographic groups - one reason PGCS continued their immersion program - I believe the best answer to that dilemma is to recruit students who are more representative demograhically of MoCo as a whole. But that just has not been practical.

So those are my fairly educated biases and observations. But in the end, its just my opinion and of course other issues may apply.

MCPS's immersion program is likewise not suited to highly gifted children.

These are "insider's program" in your opinion. I disagree with that opinion.

[Anonymous]

15:16 here, coming back to add that you have not explained your statement that "the attrition in grades 4 to 6 undercuts the value of the programs that some parents have worked very hard to maintain or strengthen."

How does the attrition undercut the value of the (immersion) programs?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:15:16 here, coming back to add that you have not explained your statement that "the attrition in grades 4 to 6 undercuts the value of the programs that some parents have worked very hard to maintain or strengthen."

How does the attrition undercut the value of the (immersion) programs?

Not the PP to whom you respond, but it does interest me that parents will fight for these programs, citing all their many benefits, and then drop them like a hot rock when something they perceive to be better comes along. If kids leave, immersion programs should make a better push to fill some of the empty seats and not waste the investment the county puts into the teachers and instructional materials.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:15:16 here, coming back to add that you have not explained your statement that "the attrition in grades 4 to 6 undercuts the value of the programs that some parents have worked very hard to maintain or strengthen."

How does the attrition undercut the value of the (immersion) programs?

Not the PP to whom you respond, but it does interest me that parents will fight for these programs, citing all their many benefits, and then drop them like a hot rock when something they perceive to be better comes along. If kids leave, immersion programs should make a better push to fill some of the empty seats and not waste the investment the county puts into the teachers and instructional materials.

To the best of my knowledge, they do push to fill empty seats. My child's fifth-grade French immersion class was full-up, despite attrition in earlier grades.

These programs do have huge benefits. And people do fight for them, because not only do they work; they don't cost MCPS anything at all, other than (1) the program director salary and (2) $2K annually in translation costs. So, they are not financially burdensome.

RE attrition, I don't think anyone "drops it like a hot rock" - as a PP said, no one leaves these programs without giving it significant thought first (hence OP's original query). As with any other program, the only way to know whether it is working for your child is to keep reevaluating, and to look for other options if it is no longer working. It is impossible to predict that your rising kindergartener may need something entirely different four years in the future.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:15:16 here, coming back to add that you have not explained your statement that "the attrition in grades 4 to 6 undercuts the value of the programs that some parents have worked very hard to maintain or strengthen."

How does the attrition undercut the value of the (immersion) programs?

Not the PP to whom you respond, but it does interest me that parents will fight for these programs, citing all their many benefits, and then drop them like a hot rock when something they perceive to be better comes along. If kids leave, immersion programs should make a better push to fill some of the empty seats and not waste the investment the county puts into the teachers and instructional materials.

Actually, in my son's third-grade class last year (two classrooms), I think a combined total of maybe four children (of fifty) applied to the HGC. I don't think there are many parents opting out of immersion, once they are in.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: ...

And lets be honest: enrollment for full immersion, HGC, and magnet programs is not even close to the county average which would be 20% FARMs (although 10 years my oldest's elementary immersion program was much more nearly representative). These are insider's programs that require parents to navigate the application process and continue to favor the insider and their siblings in the case of immersion. HCG and middle school magnets have outright barriers to entry in the form of selective testing and parent essays.

...

So those are my fairly educated biases and observations. But in the end, its just my opinion and of course other issues may apply.

MCPS's immersion program is likewise not suited to highly gifted children.

These are "insider's program" in your opinion. I disagree with that opinion.

As someone with a kid who did language immersion in MoCo, I agree that these are largely insiders' programs. It's been a while for us, but as I recall you have to enter a lottery, which requires getting your home school to sign off on a form, and sending stuff in to different places in the MoCo administration. If you don't know how to work a bureaucracy, this might put you off. Plus, you have to feel confident you can support your kid when he or she brings home homework in the target language. Our immersion program had an outsized share of professors' kids, kids of parents who ran non-profits, and generally parents with multiple degrees.

I also disagree it's not suited to highly gifted children. Immersion kids can do math up to 2 years ahead. Maybe 8 kids in DC's class went on to the MS magnets, including 4-5 (including DC) who went on to TPMS and are doing well there. In fact, programs for highly gifted kids are not always about accelerating to the max - instead, TPMS goes deeper into each issue area. I like the idea of challenging kids with a foreign language. Nothing like learning your math tables in a foreign language for an extra challenge to the brain.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: ...

And lets be honest: enrollment for full immersion, HGC, and magnet programs is not even close to the county average which would be 20% FARMs (although 10 years my oldest's elementary immersion program was much more nearly representative). These are insider's programs that require parents to navigate the application process and continue to favor the insider and their siblings in the case of immersion. HCG and middle school magnets have outright barriers to entry in the form of selective testing and parent essays.

...

So those are my fairly educated biases and observations. But in the end, its just my opinion and of course other issues may apply.

MCPS's immersion program is likewise not suited to highly gifted children.

These are "insider's program" in your opinion. I disagree with that opinion.

As someone with a kid who did language immersion in MoCo, I agree that these are largely insiders' programs. It's been a while for us, but as I recall you have to enter a lottery, which requires getting your home school to sign off on a form, and sending stuff in to different places in the MoCo administration. If you don't know how to work a bureaucracy, this might put you off. Plus, you have to feel confident you can support your kid when he or she brings home homework in the target language. Our immersion program had an outsized share of professors' kids, kids of parents who ran non-profits, and generally parents with multiple degrees.

I also disagree it's not suited to highly gifted children. Immersion kids can do math up to 2 years ahead. Maybe 8 kids in DC's class went on to the MS magnets, including 4-5 (including DC) who went on to TPMS and are doing well there. In fact, programs for highly gifted kids are not always about accelerating to the max - instead, TPMS goes deeper into each issue area. I like the idea of challenging kids with a foreign language. Nothing like learning your math tables in a foreign language for an extra challenge to the brain.

My child did immersion, went on to the HGC, and then went to TPMS. I can assure you that while DC benefited from immersion, and indeed did math two years ahead, the program - which is as a PP said based on MCPS standard curriculum - not meet his needs. He zoomed through the math and other subjects, and was cooperative and pleasant, but was constantly frustrated by the limitations of the program. (I'm not complaining about them; just saying this was his experience.) The HGC, which offers not only accelerated instruction but an enriched curriculum, was a godsend and addressed his needs in ways that the immersion program never did (never could).

Learning math tables in a foreign language does stretch the brain, but it is not enrichment for a gifted child. Nor is reading in the target language, or any of the rest of the program curriculum. It simply doesn't address the needs of a highly gifted child - which is why, of course, the HGC exists to begin with.

OP, if your child is admitted, I recommend you send her. It will benefit her in all sorts of ways.

[Anonymous]

Funny, because my child meets the definition of HG by any standard (DC did an IQ test in 3rd grade for another reason), yet DC was happy in the immersion program. Yes, DC got As and A+ in math that was accelerated 2 years ahead. But we didn't even apply to the HGC because we value languages and because DC seemed happy. DC is now in the Takoma magnet and doing well there.

Maybe some of the differences is among kids - some kids may want more math than is on offer, while others may be more into reading or other activities.

Plus, some families value languages over acceleration, especially if the kid seems happy in the immersion program.

So there's no obvious right or wrong here, and no black and white answer that applies to all kids. Whether you should do HGC probably depends most of all on your kid and on your own priorities.

[Anonymous]

16:21..You failed to include the transportation costs for the kids...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:16:21..You failed to include the transportation costs for the kids...

Agreed.

Still, negligible.

[Anonymous]

Transportation costs for immersion and magnet programs total nearly $5million/year, which is why the Board was looking for ways to charge families for transportation. @$1,000 or more per student, the costs would not be neglible to many famlies.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Transportation costs for immersion and magnet programs total nearly $5million/year, which is why the Board was looking for ways to charge families for transportation. @$1,000 or more per student, the costs would not be neglible to many famlies.

Actually, it was MD Senator Madaleno who introduced this idea, not the BOE. In fact, the BOE pointed out that MCPS cannot charge for transportation. In any case it's not gonna happen.

http://parentscoalitionmc.blogspot.com/2010/12/berthiaume-was-right-every-md-school.html

http://parentscoalitionmc.blogspot.com/2010/11/berthiaume-all-24-maryland-school.html

The cost is negligible in the larger scheme of the MCPS budget.

[Anonymous]

11:06 - your are right, Senator Madaleno (reportedly an MCPS immersion parent) introduced the bill and it is not currently on the table. According to the article in the the Washington Examiner at http://washingtonexaminer.com/education/2010/11/montgomery-school-board-pushes-allow-bus-fees#ixzz1CFkkgWfk

"The board voted 7-1 to support Sen. Richard Madaleno Jr.'s effort to lift a 1997 state law forbidding bus fees specifically in Montgomery County."

While costs may appear to be negligible from a parent standpoint, The Board is clearly looking for places to trim.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: ...

And lets be honest: enrollment for full immersion, HGC, and magnet programs is not even close to the county average which would be 20% FARMs (although 10 years my oldest's elementary immersion program was much more nearly representative). These are insider's programs that require parents to navigate the application process and continue to favor the insider and their siblings in the case of immersion. HCG and middle school magnets have outright barriers to entry in the form of selective testing and parent essays.

...

So those are my fairly educated biases and observations. But in the end, its just my opinion and of course other issues may apply.

MCPS's immersion program is likewise not suited to highly gifted children.

These are "insider's program" in your opinion. I disagree with that opinion.

As someone with a kid who did language immersion in MoCo, I agree that these are largely insiders' programs. It's been a while for us, but as I recall you have to enter a lottery, which requires getting your home school to sign off on a form, and sending stuff in to different places in the MoCo administration. If you don't know how to work a bureaucracy, this might put you off. Plus, you have to feel confident you can support your kid when he or she brings home homework in the target language. Our immersion program had an outsized share of professors' kids, kids of parents who ran non-profits, and generally parents with multiple degrees.

I also disagree it's not suited to highly gifted children. Immersion kids can do math up to 2 years ahead. Maybe 8 kids in DC's class went on to the MS magnets, including 4-5 (including DC) who went on to TPMS and are doing well there. In fact, programs for highly gifted kids are not always about accelerating to the max - instead, TPMS goes deeper into each issue area. I like the idea of challenging kids with a foreign language. Nothing like learning your math tables in a foreign language for an extra challenge to the brain.

My child did immersion, went on to the HGC, and then went to TPMS. I can assure you that while DC benefited from immersion, and indeed did math two years ahead, the program - which is as a PP said based on MCPS standard curriculum - not meet his needs. He zoomed through the math and other subjects, and was cooperative and pleasant, but was constantly frustrated by the limitations of the program. (I'm not complaining about them; just saying this was his experience.) The HGC, which offers not only accelerated instruction but an enriched curriculum, was a godsend and addressed his needs in ways that the immersion program never did (never could).

Learning math tables in a foreign language does stretch the brain, but it is not enrichment for a gifted child. Nor is reading in the target language, or any of the rest of the program curriculum. It simply doesn't address the needs of a highly gifted child - which is why, of course, the HGC exists to begin with.

OP, if your child is admitted, I recommend you send her. It will benefit her in all sorts of ways.

Totally agree with this. For some kids, it's not enough, or not the right kind of challenge.

[Anonymous]

Again, there is no black-and-white answer for every kid or every family. There are a few posters on DCUM who think that every HG or PG kid needs exactly the same thing. But I know a number of kids (4-5 kids) who went from immersion to the TPMS magnet without even applying to the HGC, were happy in the immersion program, are doing extremely well at the Takoma magnet, and are now fluent in the target language to boot.

I'm also going to throw out that there may be some differences among immersion programs and how much they challenge kids. We've only done one program, so obviously we can't compare, but I'm not sure any other posters can compare either.