Would you move your child out of a language immersion program

[Anonymous]

to attend an MCPS Highly Gifted Center? Our child applied for admission for the fall, and while this may not even be a decision we need to make, when the time comes I would like to have thought this through.

DC is quite fluent in the target language and reasonably happy at school but definitely not challenged. DC says she would be happy to go to the HGC (and I think she would be disappointed if she were not admitted). We are not hyping it up at all.

Would you move your child from a language immersion program? (Or have you?)

[Anonymous]

I know a kid who made the move, but only after the family went through a lot of internal debate. Apparently they deliberated most on some evidence that a kid may lose the immersion language if they leave it for 2-3 years. But they went with the HGC for the extra challenges and the peer group.

We also know some bright kids who stayed with the language immersion and didn't apply to HGCs, just because immersion provided a different kind of challenge and/or a 2nd language was a priority. Yes, it's true the immersion teachers may not be fabulous with, say, math. But doing math two years ahead, and in a foreign language, is another type of challenge.

So there are a lot of factors to consider - as you've probably already realized!

[Anonymous]

16:26 again. PS, from our kid's language immersion class, about 8-10 kids went on to middle school magnets. For TPMS these were generally the kids who had done math two years ahead, although there was an exception or two.

[Anonymous]

My ES is home to a language magnet and a large number (6-8 in the past few years) leave for GT programs. Enough that the 4-5 grade is a combined class. I don't really know many immersion families so I can't comment on their decision making but just know they seem to take the GT over the immersion.

[Anonymous]

I would not move a child out of immersion, but then DH and I were language majors in college and consider the immersion program to be a huge benefit of living in MoCo. Similarly, we expected them to continue through middle school so neither let them consider or apply to any of the middle school magnets. It is a hard decision to take a child out of their home school for immersion, and I have to admit that I think poorly of families who take a sought-after spot in K and then surf the "special" programs; it leaves the impression that they have merely sought immersion as a way out of their home school. The attrition in grades 4 to 6 undercuts the value of the programs that some parents have worked very hard to maintain or strengthen.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I would not move a child out of immersion, but then DH and I were language majors in college and consider the immersion program to be a huge benefit of living in MoCo. Similarly, we expected them to continue through middle school so neither let them consider or apply to any of the middle school magnets. It is a hard decision to take a child out of their home school for immersion, and I have to admit that I think poorly of families who take a sought-after spot in K and then surf the "special" programs; it leaves the impression that they have merely sought immersion as a way out of their home school. The attrition in grades 4 to 6 undercuts the value of the programs that some parents have worked very hard to maintain or strengthen.

Not OP; our children are in middle & high school now. For us, immersion was not a way to get our kids out of their home school for immersion. In fact, our home school is excellent, and sought-after. We were not "escaping" anything.

The reason we chose immersion to begin with was that, like you, we both speak second languages and value it highly. We liked the program in general for the first several years, but around grade 4 it fell apart (in our opinion). It was poorly-organized; the teachers were very ad hoc in their approach (and not in a good way); and the language arts in particular were weak. DC#1's year in Grade 5 was a big waste of time, and we regret not seeking out other options at that time. So, as DC approached the later years in the program, we looked at other options, considered our home school, and ultimately chose a magnet program.

In your view, how does the attrition in grades 4-6 "undercut the value" of the immersion program? I would think that, on the contrary, it leaves the students with a much lower student-to-teacher ratio than they would have had, had all of the children continued.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I would not move a child out of immersion, but then DH and I were language majors in college and consider the immersion program to be a huge benefit of living in MoCo. Similarly, we expected them to continue through middle school so neither let them consider or apply to any of the middle school magnets. It is a hard decision to take a child out of their home school for immersion, and I have to admit that I think poorly of families who take a sought-after spot in K and then surf the "special" programs; it leaves the impression that they have merely sought immersion as a way out of their home school. The attrition in grades 4 to 6 undercuts the value of the programs that some parents have worked very hard to maintain or strengthen.

I don't think anyone enrolls their child in immersion intending to "surf" special programs later. Whether or not a given child will benefit more from e.g. the HGC than the immersion program is not, in general, something that any parent can possibly know when that child is 4yo and approaching kindergarten age. As a child develops and goes through school, however, his abilities and needs become far more apparent than they had been prior to starting school. A responsible and loving parent makes decisions based on her particular child and his individual needs as they become apparent, and when those decisions aren't working any longer, then the responsible and loving parent seeks out alternatives.

I have never heard anyone call this "surfing."

[Anonymous]

Yes! We moved DC form an immersion program to the HGC and it was the best move we ever made.

I have a language degree and work in an international field so I am very committed to the idea of immersion. However, DC really needed a different environment. He has thrived at the HGC and frankly, I think he's getting an amazing education.

I would not hesitate to do it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Yes! We moved DC form an immersion program to the HGC and it was the best move we ever made.

I have a language degree and work in an international field so I am very committed to the idea of immersion. However, DC really needed a different environment. He has thrived at the HGC and frankly, I think he's getting an amazing education.

I would not hesitate to do it.

OP here - thank you so much.

What grade is your child in now? Has he retained the language?

[Anonymous]

He's now in fifth -- so the second year in the center.

He has retained a lot but, to be honest, never practices it. In my own experience, a lot of that will come back once he's in middle school and can take it again. But I believe that the comfort with learning languages (and the neural pathways to do so) have been established, so I'm sure he will learn more in the future.

For this particular kid, the enriched and accelerated material and the peer group was so much more important for his mental well being -- it was totally worth it.

[Anonymous]

Also, I want to say to the PPs that immersion is a great thing but it isn't for everyone.

Remember, the immersion curriculum is the same as regular MCPS, and despite the additional language challenge, it can be boring for kids who need something accelerated.

Also, when you sign your child up in K, you don't necessarily know about learning disabilities that will crop up later. For kids with language-based learning disabilities, immersion can add an additional layer that impedes their learning, and it is really hard to find an outside tutor to work with them if all their work is in Spanish.

So people who leave immersion aren't surfing -- it's a hard decision, not taken lightly by most parents. Let's face it, immersion is a big commitment and I don't think people leave it easily, either.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Also, I want to say to the PPs that immersion is a great thing but it isn't for everyone.

Remember, the immersion curriculum is the same as regular MCPS, and despite the additional language challenge, it can be boring for kids who need something accelerated.

Also, when you sign your child up in K, you don't necessarily know about learning disabilities that will crop up later. For kids with language-based learning disabilities, immersion can add an additional layer that impedes their learning, and it is really hard to find an outside tutor to work with them if all their work is in Spanish.

So people who leave immersion aren't surfing -- it's a hard decision, not taken lightly by most parents. Let's face it, immersion is a big commitment and I don't think people leave it easily, either.

I agree. The program is there for the kids - not vice-versa.

[Anonymous]

If you're talking about Chinese Immersion I don't think it matters. By the time they are in middle school and definitely by high school, most of the (non-native) immersion kids have dropped out. They keep the classes full by replacing the immersion kids with native speakers. You can check it out for yourself. Don't know about the other immersions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If you're talking about Chinese Immersion I don't think it matters. By the time they are in middle school and definitely by high school, most of the (non-native) immersion kids have dropped out. They keep the classes full by replacing the immersion kids with native speakers. You can check it out for yourself. Don't know about the other immersions.

Class sizes take a big dip at the 4th grade level for Spanish immersion. It doesn't seem that the class sizes are kept full by bringing in more native speakers. I'm not sure why given the large Spanish speaking population in the county, maybe it's just not advertised much.

[Anonymous]

PP here to clarify my comment about surfing special programs and how that diminishes immersion in particular.

I don't doubt the sincerity of posters on this list. It is very true that immersion is not suited to students who have learning issues and may even mask them; the attrition in one of my kid's classes due to processing/dyslexia/other issues approached 10%. My comments had to do with kids who leave the program for HCG or middle school magnets in grades 4 to 6.

And lets be honest: enrollment for full immersion, HGC, and magnet programs is not even close to the county average which would be 20% FARMs (although 10 years my oldest's elementary immersion program was much more nearly representative). These are insider's programs that require parents to navigate the application process and continue to favor the insider and their siblings in the case of immersion. HCG and middle school magnets have outright barriers to entry in the form of selective testing and parent essays.

While it is true that kids who exit the program leave behind smaller classes that are also likely to be more diverse in the wake, it is my opinion (and I would guess that of the Board members) that the high SES of the parents exercising their options for HGC/magnets add to the appearance that immersion is a public private program. Diversity has decreased over time and attrition has increased as more magnet seats have been added. Because immersion leads to higher performance across demographic groups - one reason PGCS continued their immersion program - I believe the best answer to that dilemma is to recruit students who are more representative demograhically of MoCo as a whole. But that just has not been practical.

So those are my fairly educated biases and observations. But in the end, its just my opinion and of course other issues may apply.