Bishop says AZ hospital no longer 'Catholic'

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:She could have practiced natural family planning which is sanctioned by the catholic church.

Yeah, and who knows, maybe that's how she got pregnant.... One question I have: when you are a patient at a Catholic hospital, are these "ethics" panels convened before life saving care is given to you? So let's say you called an ambulance and were rushed to your nearest hospital...and it was Catholic. Would you have to wait to get your life saving abortion while a bunch of non-medical people tried to argue the morality of saving your life vs. letting you die? WOW! I guess forwarned....

And to the person who said abortion is never ok within the Catholic Church...not true, there are cases where it is permissible (cancer of the uterus) etc...not many but the hospital thought they were falling under that exception and the bishop disagreed. I think personally that it is unbelievable and very instructive regarding how the church really sees women.

[Anonymous]

That's rich... coming from someone who is incapable of having a baby. Typically misogynistic.

[Anonymous]

I love how the Catholic-haters out there do their best to slam the Catholic Church. I really wish all the haters would do some homework before hurling unfounded rocks at the Catholic church, like reading even one of the many thoughtful, well-reasoned papers published regularly by the Catholic Church explaining its doctrine and the real-life application of that doctrine to these types of situations. But, I know, it is much easier (and, apparently, more satisfying) to ignore all that and hurl baseless insults. And despite the characterization that the church's view is just "black-and-white" - - it isn't - - it is a consistent approach, in many nuanced situations, to support life. Period. I don't care what you haters think you know about the Church - you apparently don't know much and aren't willing to actually learn about it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
She could have practiced natural family planning which is sanctioned by the catholic church.


Yeah, and who knows, maybe that's how she got pregnant....

Ummm...probably not. If you know anything at all about actual NFP, you'd know that is very, very unlikely if you truly are practicing NFP.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I love how the Catholic-haters out there do their best to slam the Catholic Church. I really wish all the haters would do some homework before hurling unfounded rocks at the Catholic church, like reading even one of the many thoughtful, well-reasoned papers published regularly by the Catholic Church explaining its doctrine and the real-life application of that doctrine to these types of situations. But, I know, it is much easier (and, apparently, more satisfying) to ignore all that and hurl baseless insults. And despite the characterization that the church's view is just "black-and-white" - - it isn't - - it is a consistent approach, in many nuanced situations, to support life. Period. I don't care what you haters think you know about the Church - you apparently don't know much and aren't willing to actually learn about it.

Care to enlighten us about this particular situation? What about the situation in Brazil where the archbishop excommunicated everyone associated with the abortion case of a 9 year old who had been repeatedly raped by her stepfather - wait, he excommunicated everyone but the stepfather. The Vatican had to step in on that one but to have an archbishop respond that way, well, that says a lot about the church?

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/28/world/americas/28brazil.html

[Anonymous]

Why do women continue to be members of this faith if it subjects them to second class citizen status? Would men be members of an organization where they were treated similarly?

[Anonymous]

If being "Catholic" means letting a woman and her fetus both die on principle instead of aborting the fetus to save at least the woman -- means LETTING PEOPLE DIE ON PRINCIPLE -- then I don't get why any hospital or anyone would want to be "Catholic" (as defined by this bishop). I know wonderful, thoughtful, ethical Catholic people and organizations, but the farther you get up the hierarchy, the more absolutist and close-minded and (proudly?) out-of-touch it seems to get.

This case really gave me the creeps -- like some dystopian Margaret Atwood novel or something. Imagine being the doomed woman, pregnant, dying, being told, sorry, we won't help you -- we COULD -- but no, both you and your baby will die because we think that's what God wants.

[Anonymous]

How do they determine what is ethical? Why use prescription meds or medical care or go to a hospital because you don't need human intervention if it's all up to God?

[Anonymous]

The mother had been treated previously at this hospital. She was too ill when she arrived in the emergency room to be transferred to another hospital. The staff told her that they would need to remove her placenta to stop the pulmonary hypertension which would end the pregnancy. She held off and became more ill. She finally was in a life-threatening situation and agreed to the surgery. In the meantime, the hospital ethics committee was convened and they followed what they thought was the procedure regarding these gray areas related to medical treatment and conduction the surgery. She was 12 weeks pregnant.

The incident was later reported to the bishop. He insisted that they did not follow the procedures and declared any Catholic involved, including the sister who is the head administrator to be automatically excommunicated since they participated in an act that under canon(church) law separates you from the church. Sister continues to be employed at the hospital.

The hospital hired its own ethicist to review the case. The bishop wrote to say that he was not going to debate canon law but that the hospital, in order to be Catholic, had to accept his authority to teach and determine Catholic doctrine.

What is really unfortunate is that in the last 20 years, the Vatican and American bishops keep appointing very strict constructivist conservatives to lead. This bishop is one of them and he has not looked with any compassion on the mother, family, the doctors in this case - just a rigid upholding of his ethical views and his authority. It actully means very little change to the hospital. They have said they will not conduct any abortions or tubal ligations which was their previous policy.

This incident and so many others in recent years makes me wonder if the Catholic church in America is concerned about anything except abortion, gay marriage and immigration policy, especially for Hispanics. No other topics are ever spoken about in public above the parish level. The bishops opposed health care reform, and it took the sisters, who are the health care administrators in the Catholic system to say that reform was more important than focusing on the abortion issue as more important than any other aspect of access to health care.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
She could have practiced natural family planning which is sanctioned by the catholic church.


Yeah, and who knows, maybe that's how she got pregnant....

Ummm...probably not. If you know anything at all about actual NFP, you'd know that is very, very unlikely if you truly are practicing NFP.

Which is especially ironic given that the church insists that couples remain "open to life" when practicing NFP. And yes, I'm well aware of what NFP is, and I know that unless carefully followed (taking temps every day, checking your cervix every day, and watching the calendar carefully) it is a method that can fail, like all others.

And to the person who said this is just Catholic "bashing"; no, some people really have read about this and have come away completely perplexed about how the bishop came to this conclusion. These are his words: The exceptional cases, mentioned in ERD #47, were not met, that is, that there was not a cancerous uterus or other grave malady that might justify an indirect and unintended termination of the life of the baby to treat the grave illness. In this case, the baby was healthy and there were no problems with the pregnancy; rather, the mother had a disease that needed to be treated. But instead of treating the disease, St. Joseph's medical staff and ethics committee decided that the healthy, 11-week-old baby should be directly killed. This is contrary to the teaching of the Church .

Now my question is how he could say that the abortion wasn't essential to save the life of this mother when the medical doctors say that it was? Evidently they could not "treat" her disease in any other way that would prevent her death. Is this humane? For them both to die? Just answer that question...should this woman have been left to die, regardless of her wishes, because this bishop thought that was the "moral" path to take? Is there any Catholic on here who will come out and say that, with children already at home, you would rather go to a certain death (taking your unborn baby with you) than terminate? Was this woman even Catholic?

[Anonymous]

Sick, twisted, and positively middle ages. And yes, I was raised a Catholic.

[Anonymous]

Is Shady Grove Adventist Hospital a Catholic hospital? I guess I should do my homework in case I ever end up there. It is the closest hospital to my house.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Why do women continue to be members of this faith if it subjects them to second class citizen status? Would men be members of an organization where they were treated similarly?

Ugh...why do women continue to be members of the Muslim community given the obvious inferior status they have? Culture, tradition, veiled threats?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Is Shady Grove Adventist Hospital a Catholic hospital? I guess I should do my homework in case I ever end up there. It is the closest hospital to my house.

Um, it's Seventh Day Adventist.

[Anonymous]

Former Catholic here. That's the thing about being a Catholic. There is a higher authority (man made) between you and God that dictates the rules to you. If you choose to be a Catholic, you are theoretically submitting yourself to that authority. They pissed me off enough to make me leave. But it seems to me your choices are to lobby for change from within, or stop giving them your support.

If you choose to practice in a Catholic hospital, or receive care there, you are again subjecting yourself to Catholic rules. There are other hospitals. Go there instead.

Natural Family Planning. Snort. That's probably how she got in this mess in the first place.