Worth gaming the system?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:In your experience, is it worth gaming the system by taking easier classes in high school to keep a very high GPA, just to improve chances of getting into a T20 or Ivy? Then once admitted, switching into a different major?

I recently heard about several students who entered T20 schools with less competitive or undersubscribed majors. Their plan was to move into premed after enrollment. But during freshman year they ran into the typical STEM weed-out courses, calculus, general chemistry, and physics. Many of them struggled and some had to abandon the premed track.

On the other hand, what about students who took the most rigorous courses in high school but ended up with a lower GPA and attended a non-T20 college? Do they tend to be more successful on the premed track because they are already used to the workload and difficulty?

For those who have seen this play out, does this strategy actually work in the long run? Or does avoiding rigorous coursework in high school end up making the transition to college stem or econ much harder?

All I have is anecdata, of course, but I wouldn’t suggest this route. My CS kid at Stanford took the hardest curriculum across the board in high school, got in REA while truthfully presenting himself as a CS kid with all the expected extracurriculars, and is cruising through major requirements because he is extremely well prepared. While some of his CS classmates perhaps emphasized other interests in their applications, they are not doing quite as well in class. Whether that makes a meaningful difference later remains to be seen, but they do not appear to be having as much fun in college as he has been so far.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Art history at Dartmouth, then MBB or GS. I don't think anyone would complain about that outcome.

Except that they would never get into Dartmouth

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In your experience, is it worth gaming the system by taking easier classes in high school to keep a very high GPA, just to improve chances of getting into a T20 or Ivy? Then once admitted, switching into a different major?

I recently heard about several students who entered T20 schools with less competitive or undersubscribed majors. Their plan was to move into premed after enrollment. But during freshman year they ran into the typical STEM weed-out courses, calculus, general chemistry, and physics. Many of them struggled and some had to abandon the premed track.

On the other hand, what about students who took the most rigorous courses in high school but ended up with a lower GPA and attended a non-T20 college? Do they tend to be more successful on the premed track because they are already used to the workload and difficulty?

For those who have seen this play out, does this strategy actually work in the long run? Or does avoiding rigorous coursework in high school end up making the transition to college stem or econ much harder?

All I have is anecdata, of course, but I wouldn’t suggest this route. My CS kid at Stanford took the hardest curriculum across the board in high school, got in REA while truthfully presenting himself as a CS kid with all the expected extracurriculars, and is cruising through major requirements because he is extremely well prepared. While some of his CS classmates perhaps emphasized other interests in their applications, they are not doing quite as well in class. Whether that makes a meaningful difference later remains to be seen, but they do not appear to be having as much fun in college as he has been so far.

Exactly. Use high school to prepare for the work in college. It is very challenging and difficult.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:In your experience, is it worth gaming the system by taking easier classes in high school to keep a very high GPA, just to improve chances of getting into a T20 or Ivy? Then once admitted, switching into a different major?

I recently heard about several students who entered T20 schools with less competitive or undersubscribed majors. Their plan was to move into premed after enrollment. But during freshman year they ran into the typical STEM weed-out courses, calculus, general chemistry, and physics. Many of them struggled and some had to abandon the premed track.

On the other hand, what about students who took the most rigorous courses in high school but ended up with a lower GPA and attended a non-T20 college? Do they tend to be more successful on the premed track because they are already used to the workload and difficulty?

For those who have seen this play out, does this strategy actually work in the long run? Or does avoiding rigorous coursework in high school end up making the transition to college stem or econ much harder?

Ivies and the like do not fall for that. There are Val or Sal every year with weaker rigor than students a few places below them and the lower GPA students get in, unhooked, over the higher GPA similar number of AP/honors but easier coursework.
The students that do best at ivies unhooked are the ones who take the hardest courses and end up Val or Sal. T15-20 does not need quite that level, but rigor often outweighs higher GPA in those cases as well.

For premed in particular, go to the best school with a med school on or near campus where the student will be top 10% if it is ranked T60-100ish, top 25% if it is ranked T20-50ish, and top HALF or potentially just below average, if they attend T15/ivy.
Compare their normal-timed SAT to the pre-Test-Optional data to have an idea where they will sit relative to the class.
If the non-superscored normal-timed SAT is below 1400 after 1-2 tries they are highly unlikely to have an MCAT above 505 making MD not possible from any school.
Aspiring premeds should try two of the three AP Bio, Chem, Physics in high school and if they cannot get a 4 or 5 on the ones they try, med school is not too likely based on the current way AP is scored since 2024.
Your sneak into premed friends at T20 most likely did not meet the guidelines above. Plus, consider that the vast majority of T20 curve the stem courses such that the median is B or even B+, with fewer than 20% getting assigned C grades. Bs do not weed one out of premed, Cs do. Your friends were not close to being competitive for med school if they got more than one C at a T20.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:A girl in my DC’s class did this. She literally told her that she will apply for an undersubscribed major and then transfer to the most competitive major once admitted. She took the same classes as my DD and had similar grades. They both were in AP calc A/B in senior year. The girl also got help with EC’s (book publishing etc) from her parents. Ended up at HYP and then successfully transferred to the most prestigious department.. so yes u can game the system.. people do it all the time..

This is fake. One does not transfer departments after admission because one is not admitted to a concentration or department at these places.
If that student posed as interested in an easier-major and is doing well not just scraping by (ie 3.8+) in Physics or Math or Chem there, then they had the chops for it, period. Such as 5 in AP calc and other stem courses and likely 750+ on math. Sure they may have had a boost in admissions with the publication but they would not be successful in a quantitative major there without the baseline ability.

Ivies often do let in (hooked) applicants with less than the baseline needed for success in the most rigorous majors and sometimes these students try them and struggle to be at or above the means. Most times the hooked applicant without the academic skills of the average ivy student selects for an easier major/concentration, well aware that they are not on the same level. That is ok. Below average at an ivy is 3.5-3.6 and almost all get jobs.

[Anonymous]

It was reported only about 50% admits at ivy have finished AP Calculus BC or above. The idea that ivy always requires highest rigor is fictional. I don’t understand why some people insist on this highest-rigor agenda that is not supported by evidence.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It was reported only about 50% admits at ivy have finished AP Calculus BC or above. The idea that ivy always requires highest rigor is fictional. I don’t understand why some people insist on this highest-rigor agenda that is not supported by evidence.

Right. Did you see that visual from Princeton?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A girl in my DC’s class did this. She literally told her that she will apply for an undersubscribed major and then transfer to the most competitive major once admitted. She took the same classes as my DD and had similar grades. They both were in AP calc A/B in senior year. The girl also got help with EC’s (book publishing etc) from her parents. Ended up at HYP and then successfully transferred to the most prestigious department.. so yes u can game the system.. people do it all the time..

This did not happen.

+1 Epic troll fail

[Anonymous]

My kid is a paid peer tutor at an Ivy for the equivalent of Calculus BC and DCUM would be shocked at how little math many kids know when they arrive and how poorly many of them do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My kid is a paid peer tutor at an Ivy for the equivalent of Calculus BC and DCUM would be shocked at how little math many kids know when they arrive and how poorly many of them do.

Sounds like they're teaching the legacies and recruited athletes.

[Anonymous]

I don't understand how its gaming the system. Lots of college students change majors. 18-22 is big growing time in kids lives

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My kid is a paid peer tutor at an Ivy for the equivalent of Calculus BC and DCUM would be shocked at how little math many kids know when they arrive and how poorly many of them do.

Not surprised. A 5 in Calc BC merely says that one could solve 60% of the problems on the day of the AP exam. 60% -- what a low bar! And the 60% can easily become 30% three months later, when they start their freshman year, contributing to what your kid observed as a tutor. My kid also got a 5 in Calc BC (and 790 in SAT math) but when I asked her why the derivative of x^2 is 2x, or why must the second derivative be positive at a local minimum, she could only respond with "that's the rule." She can competently differentiate and integrate functions for the purpose of the AP exam but she doesn't really understand why those rules work. I expect her to have forgotten most of these rules in August when she starts college

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It was reported only about 50% admits at ivy have finished AP Calculus BC or above. The idea that ivy always requires highest rigor is fictional. I don’t understand why some people insist on this highest-rigor agenda that is not supported by evidence.

Maybe...
Not every HS offers AP calc BC perhaps.
Kid may have rigor in other academic areas.
This may be the one thing missing but other areas of application were stellar.
Recruited athlete.
Hooked.

Taking easy classes in HS to get into a top college just doesn't make any sense. It's about the rigor plus the GPA, not just GPA. If you're not hooked, you need rigor.
Also if your kid can handle ivy courseload, then they will be bored out of their minds doing easy classes in HS - why would you torture your kid like that?
If your kid can't even handle HS classes, save kid trouble and don't think about med school

And as for calculus specifically, doctors really don't need to know calculus. But premed/med school is no joke and they need to be able to learn a ton of information and retain it. Med school is not the "easy" path.

Taking easier classes in HS than you can handle and want is not "gaming the system", it's just weird and dumb.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My kid is a paid peer tutor at an Ivy for the equivalent of Calculus BC and DCUM would be shocked at how little math many kids know when they arrive and how poorly many of them do.

This is why Ivy grads are not getting the jobs that they used to be first in line for.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It was reported only about 50% admits at ivy have finished AP Calculus BC or above. The idea that ivy always requires highest rigor is fictional. I don’t understand why some people insist on this highest-rigor agenda that is not supported by evidence.

It is supported by evidence. You need to remember context. No BC available then no BC needed. The point is that one needs to take the most difficult curriculum available at your school.