DCAPE Low Scores vs. Higher Scores

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've read in a few threads to not pay too much attention to Cape scores, and i've also seen Charters refenced alot for more of a nuanced curriculum, but how exactly is that measured if Charter standardized testing scores are noticeably lower than a Brent, Janney, Maury, Murch etc? If not using DC Cape as a metric, how do parents measure whether their child is on or above grade level? And other than perceived SES level, differentiate between High performing schools vs lower or mid performing schools?

Its easy to tell what the "best" schools are based on testing scores alone(and location obviously), but i'm curious what metric parents are using to decide whether their kids are at, below or well beyond grade level in various areas?

You need to compare apples to apples. You can’t compare schools like Brent, Maury to immersion charters for instance. The kids at our charter has none, zero ELA in ECE or K and then 50% less thru 5th. So as studies show, these kids will have lower ELA scores than kids not in immersion. Eventually they will catch up and surpass. Also how do you quantify leaning another language vs not.

In addition, kids who don’t do well in the language will likely not do well in math because it is also taught in the language.

So immersion isn’t for everyone. If my kid was struggling in ELA or math, I would pull the kid out. But it’s great for kids where school comes easy and it presents as another challenge.

Also besides CAPE testing which is required, our charter uses MAP which I think is the better test. It is adaptive and used nationally in many states so you can have more of a national comparison rather than just DC.

Um no, this is just your wish

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I've read in a few threads to not pay too much attention to Cape scores, and i've also seen Charters refenced alot for more of a nuanced curriculum, but how exactly is that measured if Charter standardized testing scores are noticeably lower than a Brent, Janney, Maury, Murch etc? If not using DC Cape as a metric, how do parents measure whether their child is on or above grade level? And other than perceived SES level, differentiate between High performing schools vs lower or mid performing schools?

Its easy to tell what the "best" schools are based on testing scores alone(and location obviously), but i'm curious what metric parents are using to decide whether their kids are at, below or well beyond grade level in various areas?

Are you asking about how parents know how well their kids are doing? There are lots of assessments throughout the year -- for my kids, it's iReady at one school (which is actually quite precise) and MAP at another school. I do pay a lot of attention to these.

I don't really care about CAPE and it's weird how much later it comes out. That said schools that have very high CAPE scores tend to be doing something right.

[Anonymous]

My kids tend to have a lot of variability in their CAPE and MAP testing, from year to year and within the same year. So it's hard for me to find it helpful.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've read in a few threads to not pay too much attention to Cape scores, and i've also seen Charters refenced alot for more of a nuanced curriculum, but how exactly is that measured if Charter standardized testing scores are noticeably lower than a Brent, Janney, Maury, Murch etc? If not using DC Cape as a metric, how do parents measure whether their child is on or above grade level? And other than perceived SES level, differentiate between High performing schools vs lower or mid performing schools?

Its easy to tell what the "best" schools are based on testing scores alone(and location obviously), but i'm curious what metric parents are using to decide whether their kids are at, below or well beyond grade level in various areas?

You need to compare apples to apples. You can’t compare schools like Brent, Maury to immersion charters for instance. The kids at our charter has none, zero ELA in ECE or K and then 50% less thru 5th. So as studies show, these kids will have lower ELA scores than kids not in immersion. Eventually they will catch up and surpass. Also how do you quantify leaning another language vs not.

In addition, kids who don’t do well in the language will likely not do well in math because it is also taught in the language.

So immersion isn’t for everyone. If my kid was struggling in ELA or math, I would pull the kid out. But it’s great for kids where school comes easy and it presents as another challenge.

Also besides CAPE testing which is required, our charter uses MAP which I think is the better test. It is adaptive and used nationally in many states so you can have more of a national comparison rather than just DC.

Both of my kids came from an immersion charter and i thought this argument was nonsense. But weirdly as they hit middle school this actually came to pass for them and their friends from the same and other immersion schools. They both have 5s and are crushing it at ELA.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've read in a few threads to not pay too much attention to Cape scores, and i've also seen Charters refenced alot for more of a nuanced curriculum, but how exactly is that measured if Charter standardized testing scores are noticeably lower than a Brent, Janney, Maury, Murch etc? If not using DC Cape as a metric, how do parents measure whether their child is on or above grade level? And other than perceived SES level, differentiate between High performing schools vs lower or mid performing schools?

Its easy to tell what the "best" schools are based on testing scores alone(and location obviously), but i'm curious what metric parents are using to decide whether their kids are at, below or well beyond grade level in various areas?

You need to compare apples to apples. You can’t compare schools like Brent, Maury to immersion charters for instance. The kids at our charter has none, zero ELA in ECE or K and then 50% less thru 5th. So as studies show, these kids will have lower ELA scores than kids not in immersion. Eventually they will catch up and surpass. Also how do you quantify leaning another language vs not.

In addition, kids who don’t do well in the language will likely not do well in math because it is also taught in the language.

So immersion isn’t for everyone. If my kid was struggling in ELA or math, I would pull the kid out. But it’s great for kids where school comes easy and it presents as another challenge.

Also besides CAPE testing which is required, our charter uses MAP which I think is the better test. It is adaptive and used nationally in many states so you can have more of a national comparison rather than just DC.

Um no, this is just your wish

Studies prove you wrong.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If a school has high-income demographics but low test scores, that's deeply unimpressive and I would avoid it.

Yes. CMI and Lee Montessori are two of the main schools that fall into this category.

Yes! It’s funny because some people tout Montessori as so great but it does not work for all children, unlike other educational philosophies that work for all.
CMI also has the worst ECE program.

And Lee has a better rep than SSMA and CHML!

Public and Charter Montessori in DC leaves a lot to be desired. No matter how you feel about it as a educational philosophy, the Montessori schools here underperform their demographics (sometimes shockingly so).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I've read in a few threads to not pay too much attention to Cape scores, and i've also seen Charters refenced alot for more of a nuanced curriculum, but how exactly is that measured if Charter standardized testing scores are noticeably lower than a Brent, Janney, Maury, Murch etc? If not using DC Cape as a metric, how do parents measure whether their child is on or above grade level? And other than perceived SES level, differentiate between High performing schools vs lower or mid performing schools?

Its easy to tell what the "best" schools are based on testing scores alone(and location obviously), but i'm curious what metric parents are using to decide whether their kids are at, below or well beyond grade level in various areas?

May schools also use standardized assessments such as NWEA MAP tests, which is more in line with what they are learning, and probably a better gauge of whether they are on grade level or not. I'd suggest taking a practice CAPE test yourself sometime, and you can see that it is a tricky format.

[Anonymous]

The way instruction is done at Lee and at any actual Montessori school would never result in high CAPE scores. Children are learning math in a completely different sequence and don’t see problems presented in the same way. I’d rather a child be excited about learning and look forward to school than they learn a skill based on what the standards say they should know at a certain grade level and presented in the way it is on one test. Another challenge is Montessori doesn’t have assessments, it uses observation. CAPE being a computerized assessment adds another layer to that. I would however be concerned with a traditional school having students not performing at grade level on CAPE because they should be learning those skills.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I've read in a few threads to not pay too much attention to Cape scores, and i've also seen Charters refenced alot for more of a nuanced curriculum, but how exactly is that measured if Charter standardized testing scores are noticeably lower than a Brent, Janney, Maury, Murch etc? If not using DC Cape as a metric, how do parents measure whether their child is on or above grade level? And other than perceived SES level, differentiate between High performing schools vs lower or mid performing schools?

Its easy to tell what the "best" schools are based on testing scores alone(and location obviously), but i'm curious what metric parents are using to decide whether their kids are at, below or well beyond grade level in various areas?

OP, these are two different questions.

School-wide CAPE scores reflect the students who come to the school more than they reflect the school’s impact on the students. They add very little to what you can learn from looking directly at the school’s demographics and instructional approach.

Individual CAPE scores reflect individual achievement. If your individual child scores a 5, they are actually doing well. If they score a 3, you should be concerned.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've read in a few threads to not pay too much attention to Cape scores, and i've also seen Charters refenced alot for more of a nuanced curriculum, but how exactly is that measured if Charter standardized testing scores are noticeably lower than a Brent, Janney, Maury, Murch etc? If not using DC Cape as a metric, how do parents measure whether their child is on or above grade level? And other than perceived SES level, differentiate between High performing schools vs lower or mid performing schools?

Its easy to tell what the "best" schools are based on testing scores alone(and location obviously), but i'm curious what metric parents are using to decide whether their kids are at, below or well beyond grade level in various areas?

May schools also use standardized assessments such as NWEA MAP tests, which is more in line with what they are learning, and probably a better gauge of whether they are on grade level or not. I'd suggest taking a practice CAPE test yourself sometime, and you can see that it is a tricky format.

My one issue with MAP is that it shows how poorly DC schools and students are performing. IIRC 90th percentile in DC for ELA was 75th nationally. DCPS needs a bit of a reckoning, again, about how the kids might be passing but maybe shouldn’t be.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've read in a few threads to not pay too much attention to Cape scores, and i've also seen Charters refenced alot for more of a nuanced curriculum, but how exactly is that measured if Charter standardized testing scores are noticeably lower than a Brent, Janney, Maury, Murch etc? If not using DC Cape as a metric, how do parents measure whether their child is on or above grade level? And other than perceived SES level, differentiate between High performing schools vs lower or mid performing schools?

Its easy to tell what the "best" schools are based on testing scores alone(and location obviously), but i'm curious what metric parents are using to decide whether their kids are at, below or well beyond grade level in various areas?

May schools also use standardized assessments such as NWEA MAP tests, which is more in line with what they are learning, and probably a better gauge of whether they are on grade level or not. I'd suggest taking a practice CAPE test yourself sometime, and you can see that it is a tricky format.

My one issue with MAP is that it shows how poorly DC schools and students are performing. IIRC 90th percentile in DC for ELA was 75th nationally. DCPS needs a bit of a reckoning, again, about how the kids might be passing but maybe shouldn’t be.

But most DCPS ESes don’t take MAP, so the DC percentile may not be reflective of DC students at all. (And FWIW my kid in a very good private school doesn’t take it either.) No idea who takes it in other states, so it may be an apples to apples comparison… or it may not.

It’s like freaking out because your kid only gets a 90%ile on the ERB when they used to get 99% on iReady… until you realize it is only taken by private school kids. Apples to oranges.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've read in a few threads to not pay too much attention to Cape scores, and i've also seen Charters refenced alot for more of a nuanced curriculum, but how exactly is that measured if Charter standardized testing scores are noticeably lower than a Brent, Janney, Maury, Murch etc? If not using DC Cape as a metric, how do parents measure whether their child is on or above grade level? And other than perceived SES level, differentiate between High performing schools vs lower or mid performing schools?

Its easy to tell what the "best" schools are based on testing scores alone(and location obviously), but i'm curious what metric parents are using to decide whether their kids are at, below or well beyond grade level in various areas?

May schools also use standardized assessments such as NWEA MAP tests, which is more in line with what they are learning, and probably a better gauge of whether they are on grade level or not. I'd suggest taking a practice CAPE test yourself sometime, and you can see that it is a tricky format.

My one issue with MAP is that it shows how poorly DC schools and students are performing. IIRC 90th percentile in DC for ELA was 75th nationally. DCPS needs a bit of a reckoning, again, about how the kids might be passing but maybe shouldn’t be.

But most DCPS ESes don’t take MAP, so the DC percentile may not be reflective of DC students at all. (And FWIW my kid in a very good private school doesn’t take it either.) No idea who takes it in other states, so it may be an apples to apples comparison… or it may not.

It’s like freaking out because your kid only gets a 90%ile on the ERB when they used to get 99% on iReady… until you realize it is only taken by private school kids. Apples to oranges.

Of all these tests (MAP, iReady, CAPE, and course level tests at school), I care the least about CAPE for my own kids. However I did choose schools based on their high percentage of 4/5s on CAPE, and the schools are quite good, so I know there is a relationship there.

I used one to qualify a kid for CTY, but they also take iReady and eligibility last through high school. Now I just can't bring myself to care about CAPE at all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've read in a few threads to not pay too much attention to Cape scores, and i've also seen Charters refenced alot for more of a nuanced curriculum, but how exactly is that measured if Charter standardized testing scores are noticeably lower than a Brent, Janney, Maury, Murch etc? If not using DC Cape as a metric, how do parents measure whether their child is on or above grade level? And other than perceived SES level, differentiate between High performing schools vs lower or mid performing schools?

Its easy to tell what the "best" schools are based on testing scores alone(and location obviously), but i'm curious what metric parents are using to decide whether their kids are at, below or well beyond grade level in various areas?

You need to compare apples to apples. You can’t compare schools like Brent, Maury to immersion charters for instance. The kids at our charter has none, zero ELA in ECE or K and then 50% less thru 5th. So as studies show, these kids will have lower ELA scores than kids not in immersion. Eventually they will catch up and surpass. Also how do you quantify leaning another language vs not.

In addition, kids who don’t do well in the language will likely not do well in math because it is also taught in the language.

So immersion isn’t for everyone. If my kid was struggling in ELA or math, I would pull the kid out. But it’s great for kids where school comes easy and it presents as another challenge.

Also besides CAPE testing which is required, our charter uses MAP which I think is the better test. It is adaptive and used nationally in many states so you can have more of a national comparison rather than just DC.

Um no, this is just your wish

Studies prove you wrong.

Sadly, studies prove you wrong.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've read in a few threads to not pay too much attention to Cape scores, and i've also seen Charters refenced alot for more of a nuanced curriculum, but how exactly is that measured if Charter standardized testing scores are noticeably lower than a Brent, Janney, Maury, Murch etc? If not using DC Cape as a metric, how do parents measure whether their child is on or above grade level? And other than perceived SES level, differentiate between High performing schools vs lower or mid performing schools?

Its easy to tell what the "best" schools are based on testing scores alone(and location obviously), but i'm curious what metric parents are using to decide whether their kids are at, below or well beyond grade level in various areas?

You need to compare apples to apples. You can’t compare schools like Brent, Maury to immersion charters for instance. The kids at our charter has none, zero ELA in ECE or K and then 50% less thru 5th. So as studies show, these kids will have lower ELA scores than kids not in immersion. Eventually they will catch up and surpass. Also how do you quantify leaning another language vs not.

In addition, kids who don’t do well in the language will likely not do well in math because it is also taught in the language.

So immersion isn’t for everyone. If my kid was struggling in ELA or math, I would pull the kid out. But it’s great for kids where school comes easy and it presents as another challenge.

Also besides CAPE testing which is required, our charter uses MAP which I think is the better test. It is adaptive and used nationally in many states so you can have more of a national comparison rather than just DC.

Um no, this is just your wish

Studies prove you wrong.

Sadly, studies prove you wrong.

This is fairly well studied actually. Kids in bilingual settings perform better on tests overall, across class lines. E.g., https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6168086/. Are the immersion programs in DC strong enough to produce this result? Unclear. My own kid arrived at immersion program with no English, a mother tongue language, and exposure to another family language. In third grade, she’s now fully fluent in English, mother tongue, and an advanced speaker of the third language. She’s in the 97% percentile in math and 90% percentile in ELA. Would the ELA be higher if she was monolingual? Probably, but the ELA score has jumped significantly in first and second whereas math has stayed the same with little growth.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've read in a few threads to not pay too much attention to Cape scores, and i've also seen Charters refenced alot for more of a nuanced curriculum, but how exactly is that measured if Charter standardized testing scores are noticeably lower than a Brent, Janney, Maury, Murch etc? If not using DC Cape as a metric, how do parents measure whether their child is on or above grade level? And other than perceived SES level, differentiate between High performing schools vs lower or mid performing schools?

Its easy to tell what the "best" schools are based on testing scores alone(and location obviously), but i'm curious what metric parents are using to decide whether their kids are at, below or well beyond grade level in various areas?

OP, these are two different questions.

School-wide CAPE scores reflect the students who come to the school more than they reflect the school’s impact on the students. They add very little to what you can learn from looking directly at the school’s demographics and instructional approach.

Individual CAPE scores reflect individual achievement. If your individual child scores a 5, they are actually doing well. If they score a 3, you should be concerned.

Nope. Completely disagree.

You need to look at school wide CAPE scores and majority of kids should be on grade level so teaching can be at grade level minimum. Thus is especially true if your kid is grade level or above.

Teaching in DCPS is to the lowest common denominator.