Why Will or Won’t Euclid MS succeed?

[Anonymous]

At a Francis feeder and have kids younger than grade 3. I wonder if DCPS will decide to keep Cleveland, Garrison and Seaton at Francis? I know families are pushing for more advanced course options - like Geometry - at Francis and a larger student population might help with that.

Anyone know how those temporary feeder rights are going? Should parents at Ross/Thomson/Francis be pushing for it to stay this way? Would parents at Cleveland/Seaton/Garrison even want that?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:At a Francis feeder and have kids younger than grade 3. I wonder if DCPS will decide to keep Cleveland, Garrison and Seaton at Francis? I know families are pushing for more advanced course options - like Geometry - at Francis and a larger student population might help with that.

Anyone know how those temporary feeder rights are going? Should parents at Ross/Thomson/Francis be pushing for it to stay this way? Would parents at Cleveland/Seaton/Garrison even want that?

DCPS wants to offer Geometry at most middle schools, so I have no doubt that Euclid could have it. Lots of schools do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:At a Francis feeder and have kids younger than grade 3. I wonder if DCPS will decide to keep Cleveland, Garrison and Seaton at Francis? I know families are pushing for more advanced course options - like Geometry - at Francis and a larger student population might help with that.

Anyone know how those temporary feeder rights are going? Should parents at Ross/Thomson/Francis be pushing for it to stay this way? Would parents at Cleveland/Seaton/Garrison even want that?

I think if Francis is successful as a middle school, then more people will want to attend and then the building won't be big enough, so some will have to be boundaried out one way or another. Euclid building is, for many of the Seaton/Garrison/Cleveland folks, more convenient anyway. So I think it's kind of an odd dynamic where it's better for the older kids at the feeders to be at Francis, but in the long run for younger kids like current preschoolers, starting up Euclid is a better deal.

[Anonymous]

I'm optimistic. DCI attracted lots of UMC families from their feeder schools. Macarthur attracted the Jackson-Reed-bound kids. UMC families are obviously not what makes a school great, but it certainly is easier to run a school when you've got a solid cadre of families whose lives and incomes aren't in too much flux, and who are already addressing some of their kids' learning issues.

[Anonymous]

I think it could wind up not a Hardy or Deal, but equivalent to Wells or Eliot Hine. And I don't think it's as make-or-break as PPs are suggesting: with at least 1/3 of the student body leaving each year, there can be rapid shifts in test scores, demographics, desirability, etc. I think having advanced classes and interesting electives and extracurriculars will help. If they offer Spanish at a level that's good for native speakers or kids coming from immersion/dual language programs that would be good too. And if they can help kids prepare for high school (whether that's the IB, selective DCPS, charters, private, or moving out of DC) that would help more people choose it. To have the best chance at Walls, that means grade inflation. For Duke, a good arts program.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm optimistic. DCI attracted lots of UMC families from their feeder schools. Macarthur attracted the Jackson-Reed-bound kids. UMC families are obviously not what makes a school great, but it certainly is easier to run a school when you've got a solid cadre of families whose lives and incomes aren't in too much flux, and who are already addressing some of their kids' learning issues.

MC and UMC kids might not make a school great but they’re the only thing keeping a school from being a pit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm optimistic. DCI attracted lots of UMC families from their feeder schools. Macarthur attracted the Jackson-Reed-bound kids. UMC families are obviously not what makes a school great, but it certainly is easier to run a school when you've got a solid cadre of families whose lives and incomes aren't in too much flux, and who are already addressing some of their kids' learning issues.

MC and UMC kids might not make a school great but they’re the only thing keeping a school from being a pit.

There are some very successful schools that are primarily low income (like DC Prep, the other charters that exceed expectations and send many of their graduates to college). But it seems like DCPS can rarely pull off a good school unless there is buy in from "professional class" parents. When they do, it's because of a visionary principal, not because of the school district.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm optimistic. DCI attracted lots of UMC families from their feeder schools. Macarthur attracted the Jackson-Reed-bound kids. UMC families are obviously not what makes a school great, but it certainly is easier to run a school when you've got a solid cadre of families whose lives and incomes aren't in too much flux, and who are already addressing some of their kids' learning issues.

MC and UMC kids might not make a school great but they’re the only thing keeping a school from being a pit.

There are some very successful schools that are primarily low income (like DC Prep, the other charters that exceed expectations and send many of their graduates to college). But it seems like DCPS can rarely pull off a good school unless there is buy in from "professional class" parents. When they do, it's because of a visionary principal, not because of the school district.

And add to that -- I heard someone in the neighborhood make a wish for a Euclid Principal -- Brigham Kiplinger, the Garrison principal who turned that school into what it is today.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm optimistic. DCI attracted lots of UMC families from their feeder schools. Macarthur attracted the Jackson-Reed-bound kids. UMC families are obviously not what makes a school great, but it certainly is easier to run a school when you've got a solid cadre of families whose lives and incomes aren't in too much flux, and who are already addressing some of their kids' learning issues.

MC and UMC kids might not make a school great but they’re the only thing keeping a school from being a pit.

There are some very successful schools that are primarily low income (like DC Prep, the other charters that exceed expectations and send many of their graduates to college). But it seems like DCPS can rarely pull off a good school unless there is buy in from "professional class" parents. When they do, it's because of a visionary principal, not because of the school district.

Schools like DC Prep succeed because of buy in too -- they offer a very strict, traditional educational experience that is appealing to a lot of middle class black families in the district. The school community tends to be pretty homogenous which makes it easier to maintain a very specific culture. It doesn't work well for all students, including all low income students, but it works well for the families who self select into the school.

A neighborhood DCPS can't do that, not because they lack a "visionary principal" but because that approach would inevitably not work for half the students at the school and it would be a mess. Neighborhood schools have to be able to meet the needs of a broad range of students from varying cultural and economic backgrounds, with different levels of parental involvement and buy in, has to accommodate a range of special needs, etc. DC Prep doesn't have to do any of that. In this way it's not dissimilar from a school like LAMB, which offers an educational approach that people who attend the school love but would never fly in a regular DCPS because a significant portion of the buy right population would inevitably hate it, or it just would totally fail to meet their needs.

[Anonymous]

It's a good question.

I think it's worth looking at Ida B Wells and Brookland Middle for lessons.

Wells has been successful, in large part due to neighborhood buy-in and Brookland has not.

Looking at what led to both outcomes is worth doing.

It's clearly not the building as the contrast there is clear.

It also doesn't seem to be proximity of successful charter middle schools as both are close to those.

Which schools / students are zoned to the school seems to be a major factor as well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm optimistic. DCI attracted lots of UMC families from their feeder schools. Macarthur attracted the Jackson-Reed-bound kids. UMC families are obviously not what makes a school great, but it certainly is easier to run a school when you've got a solid cadre of families whose lives and incomes aren't in too much flux, and who are already addressing some of their kids' learning issues.

MC and UMC kids might not make a school great but they’re the only thing keeping a school from being a pit.

I think another factor is immigrant families' buy in. That often makes or breaks a new school. Does a particular immigrant group think that a school is good? They can help keep it successful.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It's a good question.

I think it's worth looking at Ida B Wells and Brookland Middle for lessons.

Wells has been successful, in large part due to neighborhood buy-in and Brookland has not.

Looking at what led to both outcomes is worth doing.

It's clearly not the building as the contrast there is clear.

It also doesn't seem to be proximity of successful charter middle schools as both are close to those.

Which schools / students are zoned to the school seems to be a major factor as well.

There are some key structural differences. Brookland is near more Catholic middle schools than Wells is. Brookland also has a lot of DCI feeders and the red line commute to DCI is doable and ther are lots of Brookland families for carpools. Brookland is also near ITDS, a strong middle. Friendship and DC Prep are also strong there.

Coolidge is a way more appealing high school than Dunbar.

On the DME spreadsheet of school enrollment by boundary, I can see than in SY 23-24, Brookland zoned kids attended 67 different schools. 119 to DCI, 67 to DC Prep, 37 to Perry St Prep, 37 to Truth, 35 to ITDS. 25 and 29 Latin. Etc. Wells has a shorter and different list of other schools attended. I think proximity of other options plus high school quality difference are the big factors here. Maybe also the new-ness of Wells or its leadership but I'm not familiar with that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's a good question.

I think it's worth looking at Ida B Wells and Brookland Middle for lessons.

Wells has been successful, in large part due to neighborhood buy-in and Brookland has not.

Looking at what led to both outcomes is worth doing.

It's clearly not the building as the contrast there is clear.

It also doesn't seem to be proximity of successful charter middle schools as both are close to those.

Which schools / students are zoned to the school seems to be a major factor as well.

There are some key structural differences. Brookland is near more Catholic middle schools than Wells is. Brookland also has a lot of DCI feeders and the red line commute to DCI is doable and ther are lots of Brookland families for carpools. Brookland is also near ITDS, a strong middle. Friendship and DC Prep are also strong there.

Coolidge is a way more appealing high school than Dunbar.

On the DME spreadsheet of school enrollment by boundary, I can see than in SY 23-24, Brookland zoned kids attended 67 different schools. 119 to DCI, 67 to DC Prep, 37 to Perry St Prep, 37 to Truth, 35 to ITDS. 25 and 29 Latin. Etc. Wells has a shorter and different list of other schools attended. I think proximity of other options plus high school quality difference are the big factors here. Maybe also the new-ness of Wells or its leadership but I'm not familiar with that.

DCPS actually acknowledged that the Brookland MS launch wasn't ideal and used those lessons learned when opening Wells. Brookland's founding principal came from Janney and wasn't a good fit. Wells's founding principal and assistant principal both came from Ward 4 education campuses (West/Lewis and LaSalle Backus, respectively). Vroman stayed for three years and then the founding AP, Lyles, became principal (by far the top choice of the panel). The curricular model has stayed basically the same in these seven years and much of the staff has also stayed.

I also believe that Brookland opened at full enrollment from the jump, while Wells opened one grade at a time. Unfortunately the first two years were interrupted by covid, but they managed to build a strong culture in spite of that. It also helps that Whittier is right across the street and Wells is in a very walkable area so it feels easy to get to for Whittier and Takoma (and Breakthrough) families. Brookland doesn't have that structural/accessibility benefit.

The Euclid SIT is in touch with members of the Wells(/Coolidge) SIT so I'm hopeful that they'll build on those experiences.

[Anonymous]

Well Euclid is easily walkable from Tubman and parts of Garrison and Cleveland. Marie Reed and Seaton are not that close, and there aren't easy bus options for Marie Reed. Not sure how that compares to Wells.

The Garrison principal has an elementary background, may not be the best for middle school. And he has a more mixed reputation than the boosters realize.

Parents zoned for Brookland said they would send their kids. But then they didn't.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Well Euclid is easily walkable from Tubman and parts of Garrison and Cleveland. Marie Reed and Seaton are not that close, and there aren't easy bus options for Marie Reed. Not sure how that compares to Wells.

The Garrison principal has an elementary background, may not be the best for middle school. And he has a more mixed reputation than the boosters realize.

Parents zoned for Brookland said they would send their kids. But then they didn't.

Brookland is also walkable for much if its zone, and well-served by bus and metro.

Part of the problem with Brookland was a bad launch, yes, but also DCPS didn't come through with advanced coursework. If you look at the planning team documents vs what the school offers now, it isn't the same at all. Arts and World Languages focus was promised, but is lacking. Math is below other schools in the area.

That all coincided with DCI turning out to be a solid option, which wasn't a known fact in advance.