Interesting standardized testing data from Princeton's freshmen survey

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:One interesting missing stat is AP scores and whether they were submitted. Do you know why? Because notwithstanding how much DCUM slobbers over AP scores, they don’t matter for college admissions.

It’s not missing. Only 13 percent of admitted students didn’t take any AP. The vast majority took several or a lot. It matters.

Learn to read.

They weren't surveyed on what their AP scores were or whether they submitted them. They were asked how many AP CLASSES they took. It's the CLASSES that count. Not the scores.

+1, DS took 17 APs, and didn't submit a single score. He's now a junior at Princeton.

[Anonymous]

That number isn't surprising given the increasing number of privates doing away with AP classes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:One interesting missing stat is AP scores and whether they were submitted. Do you know why? Because notwithstanding how much DCUM slobbers over AP scores, they don’t matter for college admissions.

It’s not missing. Only 13 percent of admitted students didn’t take any AP. The vast majority took several or a lot. It matters.

Learn to read.

They weren't surveyed on what their AP scores were or whether they submitted them. They were asked how many AP CLASSES they took. It's the CLASSES that count. Not the scores.

no shit sherlock

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:That number isn't surprising given the increasing number of privates doing away with AP classes.

Most aren't doing away, they've historically not had ap classes- e.g. Philips academies. AP has been adopted more and more over time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:One interesting missing stat is AP scores and whether they were submitted. Do you know why? Because notwithstanding how much DCUM slobbers over AP scores, they don’t matter for college admissions.

It’s not missing. Only 13 percent of admitted students didn’t take any AP. The vast majority took several or a lot. It matters.

Learn to read.

They weren't surveyed on what their AP scores were or whether they submitted them. They were asked how many AP CLASSES they took. It's the CLASSES that count. Not the scores.

no shit sherlock

tell that to the other guy, not me

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Can someone, without an agenda, explain why it seems that lower sat scores seem to have no association with dropout or retention rates at these schools? If these tests are such good predictors of success, why wouldn’t. Complete 100 point drop in score not change your outcomes.

Good question. If it's really that difficult and competitive, you should have a decent percentage of students dropping out. That's how it works in fields that are arguably more competitive like professional athletics and elite military units.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Can someone, without an agenda, explain why it seems that lower sat scores seem to have no association with dropout or retention rates at these schools? If these tests are such good predictors of success, why wouldn’t. Complete 100 point drop in score not change your outcomes.

Grade inflation.

No agenda. Schools & profs have made it virtually impossible to fail.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can someone, without an agenda, explain why it seems that lower sat scores seem to have no association with dropout or retention rates at these schools? If these tests are such good predictors of success, why wouldn’t. Complete 100 point drop in score not change your outcomes.

Grade inflation.

No agenda. Schools & profs have made it virtually impossible to fail.

It might be possible that the purpose of higher education is to learn rather than to fail.

And, perhaps, given the increased difficulty of getting in, people are satisfied that the efforts of the weakest students sufficiently prove that they learned something.

I don't have personal knowledge of Princeton but I prefer stratification and professional certification exams to trying to ruthlessly weed out people in their freshmen year.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There is a spin-off post to this, so adding my comment here - look how much better legacy kids do on the SAT/ACT.

this honestly should be expected given the intelligence of parents and resources

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Can someone, without an agenda, explain why it seems that lower sat scores seem to have no association with dropout or retention rates at these schools? If these tests are such good predictors of success, why wouldn’t. Complete 100 point drop in score not change your outcomes.

US colleges spend a lot of time trying to find the best students (while rejecting mos) for a particular class and then exert a ton of effort to ensure they graduate.

A top Canadian school like U Toronto essentially admits everyone who meets a certain threshold but then is quick to fail you out if you aren’t cutting it. They bake a failure rate into their numbers because they could never have say 100% of the starting EE majors actually continue all 4 years as they don’t plan for that when you get to more advanced classes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can someone, without an agenda, explain why it seems that lower sat scores seem to have no association with dropout or retention rates at these schools? If these tests are such good predictors of success, why wouldn’t. Complete 100 point drop in score not change your outcomes.

US colleges spend a lot of time trying to find the best students (while rejecting mos) for a particular class and then exert a ton of effort to ensure they graduate.

A top Canadian school like U Toronto essentially admits everyone who meets a certain threshold but then is quick to fail you out if you aren’t cutting it. They bake a failure rate into their numbers because they could never have say 100% of the starting EE majors actually continue all 4 years as they don’t plan for that when you get to more advanced classes.

Oh this is interesting, and I appreciate the explanation. I much prefer the US where we have centers for teaching excellence and invest into teaching than dropping out students who are doing poorly. When I was in college, I would have international professors who would express how lucky we are, because, back home, only 10 or so people would get into the top major and top program in their entire country and the failure rate was still insanely high.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can someone, without an agenda, explain why it seems that lower sat scores seem to have no association with dropout or retention rates at these schools? If these tests are such good predictors of success, why wouldn’t. Complete 100 point drop in score not change your outcomes.

US colleges spend a lot of time trying to find the best students (while rejecting mos) for a particular class and then exert a ton of effort to ensure they graduate.

A top Canadian school like U Toronto essentially admits everyone who meets a certain threshold but then is quick to fail you out if you aren’t cutting it. They bake a failure rate into their numbers because they could never have say 100% of the starting EE majors actually continue all 4 years as they don’t plan for that when you get to more advanced classes.

Oh this is interesting, and I appreciate the explanation. I much prefer the US where we have centers for teaching excellence and invest into teaching than dropping out students who are doing poorly. When I was in college, I would have international professors who would express how lucky we are, because, back home, only 10 or so people would get into the top major and top program in their entire country and the failure rate was still insanely high.

Or maybe the international programs were more demanding?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That number isn't surprising given the increasing number of privates doing away with AP classes.

Most aren't doing away, they've historically not had ap classes- e.g. Philips academies. AP has been adopted more and more over time.

I'm actually surprised the percentage with zero APs isn't higher. I live in NYC and most private schools here don't have "AP" classes so students don't take the tests. I'm so glad my child is not dealing with that process. Kids taking 5+ a year starting freshman or sophomore year is ridiculous overkill.

I would love to see a stat on number of AP tests taken and what percentage of those kids get in. I'm guessing that those with extremely high numbers don't do any better than those with few or none.

[Anonymous]

this data is suspect - says that .5% of admitted students had Cornell as their top choice over Princeton. I can confirm absolutely that there has never been a student who had Cornell as their top choice over Princeton

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That number isn't surprising given the increasing number of privates doing away with AP classes.

Most aren't doing away, they've historically not had ap classes- e.g. Philips academies. AP has been adopted more and more over time.

I'm actually surprised the percentage with zero APs isn't higher. I live in NYC and most private schools here don't have "AP" classes so students don't take the tests. I'm so glad my child is not dealing with that process. Kids taking 5+ a year starting freshman or sophomore year is ridiculous overkill.

I would love to see a stat on number of AP tests taken and what percentage of those kids get in. I'm guessing that those with extremely high numbers don't do any better than those with few or none.

Many schools still offer the test even if they don’t offer the classes. I think as an example the top boarding schools still let you sit for the tests.

They are still important for Oxbridge and other international schools and are helpful for UC admissions.

Princeton does accept AP scores for credit in STEM and languages for 5s.