Europe pre euro and freedom of movement

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Anyone else kind of wish Europe would switch back to individual currencies and border controls for each country? Purely selfish reasons. It’s far too crowded in many parts these days and I feel like this would clear out the travellers who aren’t willing or capable of dealing with a bit of bureaucracy and maths or planning in advance.

Mesh it’s not like the actual residents of these countries benefit from easy movement and common currency won’t you think of the ‘mericans and their desires!!??

[Anonymous]

It’s just the internet and social media. They ruined everything, not just travel.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I do miss the old currencies. They were neat. Still remember paying 1500 lira for a can of coke in Italy.

Suspect EU will fall apart before it grows closer. A lot of their voters are really unhappy with the status quo and the inability of the EU to address their concerns beyond trying to make political parties illegal. It's not a small minority but a substantial one. Re the French poster above, there's a lot of deep unhappiness in France....

French PP here. Are you referring to the German AFD, and neo-Nazi parties in general? Sorry, you're out of line. We're doing our best not to fall into fascism again. You've never lived it. My grandparents and older aunts and uncles lived through WWII. Don't talk about what you don't know.

I’m always fascinated by people who lived through the war. My great grandparents did but I didn’t know them. How old are you that you had aunts and uncles alive at that time?

Also it’s pretty great to see someone in France so invested in an American parenting website mostly geared towards those living in DC. It provides an interesting prospective. Can you tell us about the difference in expectations between French and American grandparents?

Sorry to hijack the thread, OP. The French are just so endlessly interesting to me.

This site was started in 2002…well it was a list serve first. I was 29 at the time, 53 now, and my mother and her parents and siblings all
lived thru WW2 (in England). I don’t think it’s very unusual for many of us on DCUM to have family members who lived thru WW2. My mother and her one surviving sibliNG are 82 and 83 yrs old so, old, but not exactly ancient by today’s standards

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I do miss the old currencies. They were neat. Still remember paying 1500 lira for a can of coke in Italy.

Suspect EU will fall apart before it grows closer. A lot of their voters are really unhappy with the status quo and the inability of the EU to address their concerns beyond trying to make political parties illegal. It's not a small minority but a substantial one. Re the French poster above, there's a lot of deep unhappiness in France....

French PP here. Are you referring to the German AFD, and neo-Nazi parties in general? Sorry, you're out of line. We're doing our best not to fall into fascism again. You've never lived it. My grandparents and older aunts and uncles lived through WWII. Don't talk about what you don't know.

I’m always fascinated by people who lived through the war. My great grandparents did but I didn’t know them. How old are you that you had aunts and uncles alive at that time?

Also it’s pretty great to see someone in France so invested in an American parenting website mostly geared towards those living in DC. It provides an interesting prospective. Can you tell us about the difference in expectations between French and American grandparents?

Sorry to hijack the thread, OP. The French are just so endlessly interesting to me.

DC is a pretty international place. I am assuming the French pp *is* French, but also a DC area resident.

I didn’t think of that. You’re probably right. The French PP wrote in a way that seemed to imply they were currently in France.

[Anonymous]

"Hey the country you live and work in isn't meeting my fantasy Disney vacation expectations! I want you to lower your economic stability for me."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Stop going to just the touristy destinations. You're missing out on a lot of great parts of Europe.

I’ve been to many tourist and non-tourist destinations. Agree it’s worth getting off the beaten path. But some places are super popular for good reason and it’s a shame not to be able to visit them any more.

Okay, but explain to me why YOU are deserving of visiting those tourist destinations and not everyone else who wants to go there. Why are you different from everyone else who wants to see the Eiffel Tower or the Louvre?

[Anonymous]

It was dirt cheap in Greece, parts of France, Portugal. Greece was ridiculously cheap. Then, post-euro, France became $$$ overnight!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It was dirt cheap in Greece, parts of France, Portugal. Greece was ridiculously cheap. Then, post-euro, France became $$$ overnight!

Not true! I was at uni in France in 1998, and wound up working for a French company in 1999. Toward the end of '98 and into '99 prices in France were chaotic, as people were confused by the math. Also euro was below parity vs USD until 2002, so everything seemed cheap (for those with US dollars) immediately after the introduction of the euro. It took some time before prices jumped in a meaningful way.

Looking at crowds across the Euro zone in more recent times, the biggest difference I see is the huge growth in travelers from China. Chinese investors accounted for 50% of Portuguese golden visa applications. I remember rueing my bad timing, when I walked into the Duomo just as a mega-tour group was filing out of 3 busses, and waiting as ~200 Chinese tourists each took an obligatory photo before shuffling to a nearby Chinese restaurant for their pre-paid meal. The lines outside of Goyard/Hermes/etc in Paris shifted from Japanese to Chinese over the years (as did the signage and language of SAs). I think the increase of wealth in China and appetite for foreign travel from a huge Asian market has been a very big factor in increased tourism not just in Europe, but other parts of Asia (esp Thailand) too. From 2006-2016, Chinese travel to EU more than tripled - far outpacing other non-EU countries. (https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=Tourism_statistics_-_EU_and_China). Covid stopped this for a while, but I think it's back to pre-pandemic levels again.

Also, more recently, the 'influencer' trend has also pushed this (obv not just in Europe). And filming trends - GoT alone created dedicated tours in Ireland, Croatia, etc that are still swamped at all hours and all times of year. No secret little towns or islands anymore (yes, pp who says that travel shouldn't be for the elite few, I hear you, but it was still nicer to enjoy places when you weren't pinned shoulder-to-shoulder with strangers).

As a dual national, I don't want pre-Euro EU. I love having the right to move somewhere else as work, love or curiosity compels. I love not having to carry a half dozen separate currencies. I love being able to look up EU laws/regulations in languages that I'm comfortable with. Even with right wing nationalists, I think people also see the example of Brexit and the wreckage it has caused the UK economy plus US tariff threats as good examples of why the EU needs to stand together. A lot of the nationalist sentiment is aimed at immigration - especially illegal immigration - as that threatens local housing supply, jobs, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I do miss the old currencies. They were neat. Still remember paying 1500 lira for a can of coke in Italy.

Suspect EU will fall apart before it grows closer. A lot of their voters are really unhappy with the status quo and the inability of the EU to address their concerns beyond trying to make political parties illegal. It's not a small minority but a substantial one. Re the French poster above, there's a lot of deep unhappiness in France....

French PP here. Are you referring to the German AFD, and neo-Nazi parties in general? Sorry, you're out of line. We're doing our best not to fall into fascism again. You've never lived it. My grandparents and older aunts and uncles lived through WWII. Don't talk about what you don't know.

I’m always fascinated by people who lived through the war. My great grandparents did but I didn’t know them. How old are you that you had aunts and uncles alive at that time?

Also it’s pretty great to see someone in France so invested in an American parenting website mostly geared towards those living in DC. It provides an interesting prospective. Can you tell us about the difference in expectations between French and American grandparents?

Sorry to hijack the thread, OP. The French are just so endlessly interesting to me.

This site was started in 2002…well it was a list serve first. I was 29 at the time, 53 now, and my mother and her parents and siblings all
lived thru WW2 (in England). I don’t think it’s very unusual for many of us on DCUM to have family members who lived thru WW2. My mother and her one surviving sibliNG are 82 and 83 yrs old so, old, but not exactly ancient by today’s standards

Your mother and her siblings did not live through Nazism because they were born in 1942-43. The war ended in 1945. You also state they lived in the UK, a country never conquered by Hitler.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I do miss the old currencies. They were neat. Still remember paying 1500 lira for a can of coke in Italy.

Suspect EU will fall apart before it grows closer. A lot of their voters are really unhappy with the status quo and the inability of the EU to address their concerns beyond trying to make political parties illegal. It's not a small minority but a substantial one. Re the French poster above, there's a lot of deep unhappiness in France....

French PP here. Are you referring to the German AFD, and neo-Nazi parties in general? Sorry, you're out of line. We're doing our best not to fall into fascism again. You've never lived it. My grandparents and older aunts and uncles lived through WWII. Don't talk about what you don't know.

I’m always fascinated by people who lived through the war. My great grandparents did but I didn’t know them. How old are you that you had aunts and uncles alive at that time?

Also it’s pretty great to see someone in France so invested in an American parenting website mostly geared towards those living in DC. It provides an interesting prospective. Can you tell us about the difference in expectations between French and American grandparents?

Sorry to hijack the thread, OP. The French are just so endlessly interesting to me.

This site was started in 2002…well it was a list serve first. I was 29 at the time, 53 now, and my mother and her parents and siblings all
lived thru WW2 (in England). I don’t think it’s very unusual for many of us on DCUM to have family members who lived thru WW2. My mother and her one surviving sibliNG are 82 and 83 yrs old so, old, but not exactly ancient by today’s standards

Your mother and her siblings did not live through Nazism because they were born in 1942-43. The war ended in 1945. You also state they lived in the UK, a country never conquered by Hitler.

I was respondimg to this: “ I’m always fascinated by people who lived through the war. My great grandparents did but I didn’t know them. How old are you that you had aunts and uncles alive at that time?”

[Anonymous]

Yes, the European tourist spots are overcrowded. Those quaint little streets can't get any bigger, so if you add more tourists, it gets crowded big time.

As a PP mentioned, the growth of tourists from Asia, particularly China, has had a big effect on this. Add on that you can easily book everything online so it's a lot easier to hop over for a few days without massive planning and need fro a travel agent.

If you want a pleasant experience, go off-season or to secondary cities. That's what we've been doing, but we've also cut back our European travel as well. There's a lot of the US and Canada to see, so our next family trips are there.

[Anonymous]

While I wouldn’t presume to declare that Europe was better off pre-Euro, I do understand the OP’s sentiment. Europe is simply not the place it was when I first traveled there in the early-mid 90’s. In some ways it’s better (it was kind of a pain to have to exchange currencies every time you crossed a border), but I don’t remember it being as wall-to-wall crowded as it is nowadays. It was just more of a challenge to travel in those pre-internet days, when you just had your guidebook, and no lines of people taking iPhone selfies to prove they visited somewhere. Sigh. It won’t stop me from going (we’ve had wonderful trips to France and Italy the past couple of years, and it’s been fun to see it through DS’s eyes), but I am a little wistful.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:While I wouldn’t presume to declare that Europe was better off pre-Euro, I do understand the OP’s sentiment. Europe is simply not the place it was when I first traveled there in the early-mid 90’s. In some ways it’s better (it was kind of a pain to have to exchange currencies every time you crossed a border), but I don’t remember it being as wall-to-wall crowded as it is nowadays. It was just more of a challenge to travel in those pre-internet days, when you just had your guidebook, and no lines of people taking iPhone selfies to prove they visited somewhere. Sigh. It won’t stop me from going (we’ve had wonderful trips to France and Italy the past couple of years, and it’s been fun to see it through DS’s eyes), but I am a little wistful.

OP here. As it happens, I’m not American and should have realised that my tongue in cheek comment would be taken literally by too many here. It was kind of prompted by another thread with people whining about having to get a visa waiver. Obviously, tourism underpins many of the economies in Europe although the sheer numbers have arguably created problems in some places that they are struggling to address. Hence, the ban on Airbnb in some places, imposition of tourist taxes, etc. Whether the euro is an overall benefit, it would be interesting to see an analysis. Clearly, it provides some stability and facilitated more trade within the bloc but the flaw of monetary union without fiscal union was definitely demonstrated by the Greek financial crisis.

My grandfather fought with Tito’s partisans in WW2 and my father remembered seeing villagers hanged from telegraph poles. My 14 year old great aunt was a gun runner.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:NO.

I'm French. It's in the interests of Europeans to work towards a closer union, really a federation, like the US. I hope that at some point the European Union will become one nation, and I don't care what language it speaks. It will be in a much stronger position to negotiate trade deals and oversee its defense on the global stage when it reaches that state.

It's not happening in my lifetime, but this is the vision of certain of its progressive politicians. Let's hope the ultra-right nationalists don't win.

Yes, it is selfish to wish for a regressive time just to visit certain places. Do I want to stroll through Venice and Florence without the hordes? Of course I do. The only time I have ever walked through an empty Louvre was during the Covid lockdown Don't wish for those things again. We can find other ways to control traffic and visitors.

Language is a part of life one’s culture. It’s frightening how easily some people would erase a part of other’s identity. Throughout history, the discouragement (and sometimes outright banning) of using one’s native language has been used as a tool of oppression. As much as I fear the alt-right, I fear people like you…different sides of the same coin.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I do miss the old currencies. They were neat. Still remember paying 1500 lira for a can of coke in Italy.

Suspect EU will fall apart before it grows closer. A lot of their voters are really unhappy with the status quo and the inability of the EU to address their concerns beyond trying to make political parties illegal. It's not a small minority but a substantial one. Re the French poster above, there's a lot of deep unhappiness in France....

French PP here. Are you referring to the German AFD, and neo-Nazi parties in general? Sorry, you're out of line. We're doing our best not to fall into fascism again. You've never lived it. My grandparents and older aunts and uncles lived through WWII. Don't talk about what you don't know.

Sorry - being against your country being overrun by migrants is not the same as being a Nazi. You are engaged in simplistic thinking.