Teacher “recommendation”/input necessary for AAP admissions, but not allowed for TJ admissions

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Equity advocates tend to dislike teacher recommendations. They believe teacher recommendations are subject to racial bias.

They are *definitely* subject to bias against autistic and ADHD kids.

There are objective behavior and performance differences between ADHD/autistic kids and those that are not.

I need clarification on what you’re saying here, because it sure sounds like you’re saying that the things valued in AAP are inconsistent with the characteristics of 2e children, which kind of proves my point.

2e kids are exactly that. They are 2e.
It is not bias to measure all the kids by the same yardstick.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They sort of tossed the baby out with the bath water. This is one piece of the old system I agree needs re-added as they would help ensure the absolute top kids from a given school are the ones selected for that school.

A test could do that better than recommendations.

We’ll agree to disagree. I’d agree if so many families in the area weren’t prepping for the test. But since they do, a teacher who has observed the kids day in day out is my preference Vs a test some prep for and some don’t.

People prep for the SAT and peer reviewed studies show that the SAT score is about the best predictor we have of academic performance at the high end of academic achievement.
https://opportunityinsights.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/SAT_ACT_on_Grades.pdf

So on the one hand I have peer reviewed research and on the other hand, you've got your gut feelings and preferences (which coincidentally favor white kids).

The difference being EVERYONE prepares for the SAT. That is the process. It is far from universal for 7th and 8th grade kids to take weekend or evening prep classes to try to get an edge on a magnet entrance test. Nor should it be.

That is your opinion.
I think it is perfectly reasonable for 8th graders to spend extra time, even a LOT of extra time on extracurricular academics.
You basically want your values and standards to be everyone's values and standards and would rather see merit be ignored than measured in a way that rewards behavior that you don't like.
You don't want to subject your kid to academic competition at the tender age of 13.
You think 8th grade is too early to be studying hard.
I think 8th grade is late in the game.

They will all be studying for the SAT at 15 or 16.
Having the best and brightest students study for the PSAT at 13 is not inhumane.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The teacher recs were only for the students who passed the initial TJ test. Teacher recs are used in college admissions- why not use them for TJ? The test was valuable (prepped or not) to show the ability to hack it in TJ math and the recs were valuable in describing work habits and interest in deep thinking.

There is a concern about racial and cultural bias.
But frankly any additional data would be an improvement over what we have now.
Reducing the false positives in the admission pool is probably the top priority.
We don't need the best of the best of the best... But we do need to avoid the kids that are academic duds.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The teacher recs were only for the students who passed the initial TJ test. Teacher recs are used in college admissions- why not use them for TJ? The test was valuable (prepped or not) to show the ability to hack it in TJ math and the recs were valuable in describing work habits and interest in deep thinking.

Equity activists believe teacher recommendations are tainted by bias, and the school board adhered to many ideas championed by equity activists. That's why TJ doesn't have teacher recommendations. Same thing with the test. Equity activists don't like them, so TJ doesn't have them.

[Anonymous]

There is no GPA for second graders, no advance math, no competition trophies or other accomplishments for second graders.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They sort of tossed the baby out with the bath water. This is one piece of the old system I agree needs re-added as they would help ensure the absolute top kids from a given school are the ones selected for that school.

A test could do that better than recommendations.

We’ll agree to disagree. I’d agree if so many families in the area weren’t prepping for the test. But since they do, a teacher who has observed the kids day in day out is my preference Vs a test some prep for and some don’t.

People prep for the SAT and peer reviewed studies show that the SAT score is about the best predictor we have of academic performance at the high end of academic achievement.
https://opportunityinsights.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/SAT_ACT_on_Grades.pdf

So on the one hand I have peer reviewed research and on the other hand, you've got your gut feelings and preferences (which coincidentally favor white kids).

The difference being EVERYONE prepares for the SAT. That is the process. It is far from universal for 7th and 8th grade kids to take weekend or evening prep classes to try to get an edge on a magnet entrance test. Nor should it be.

That is your opinion.
I think it is perfectly reasonable for 8th graders to spend extra time, even a LOT of extra time on extracurricular academics.
You basically want your values and standards to be everyone's values and standards and would rather see merit be ignored than measured in a way that rewards behavior that you don't like.
You don't want to subject your kid to academic competition at the tender age of 13.
You think 8th grade is too early to be studying hard.
I think 8th grade is late in the game.

They will all be studying for the SAT at 15 or 16.
Having the best and brightest students study for the PSAT at 13 is not inhumane.

Pot meet kettle!
Yes of course it is my opinion. Where did I say otherwise. In my opinion they should be evaluating how good the kids do in school not how much EC academic prepping their parents are willing to make them do. Other people disagree as you do clearly but it’s just opinion either way.

Moreover your approach is the more controlling one - For kids to be able to compete it ends up forcing them into the
EC academic rat race.
My way just focuses on what they are doing in school (including if they are in higher math classes) and so keeps the door open to more kids. Teach recc’s would still help differentiate the tippy top kids from the others and yes I think teachers can tell.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There is no GPA for second graders, no advance math, no competition trophies or other accomplishments for second graders.

There are test scores, reading levels, math levels, and grades for 2nd graders. Those should count for much more than teachers' potentially biased opinions. AAP is at best a program offering mild acceleration, so whether the kid is advanced or not in math and verbal skills should be the most important factor.

Also, advanced math, competition trophies, and other accomplishments aren't being considered in the 9th grade TJ application process.

All of these are once again considered for froshmore applications, in addition to teacher recommendations. It's kind of peculiar that the one and only process where math level, achievements, teacher recommendations, and test scores aren't being considered is TJ 9th grade admissions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There is no GPA for second graders, no advance math, no competition trophies or other accomplishments for second graders.

There is a COGAT and NNAT score.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They sort of tossed the baby out with the bath water. This is one piece of the old system I agree needs re-added as they would help ensure the absolute top kids from a given school are the ones selected for that school.

A test could do that better than recommendations.

We’ll agree to disagree. I’d agree if so many families in the area weren’t prepping for the test. But since they do, a teacher who has observed the kids day in day out is my preference Vs a test some prep for and some don’t.

People prep for the SAT and peer reviewed studies show that the SAT score is about the best predictor we have of academic performance at the high end of academic achievement.
https://opportunityinsights.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/SAT_ACT_on_Grades.pdf

So on the one hand I have peer reviewed research and on the other hand, you've got your gut feelings and preferences (which coincidentally favor white kids).

The difference being EVERYONE prepares for the SAT. That is the process. It is far from universal for 7th and 8th grade kids to take weekend or evening prep classes to try to get an edge on a magnet entrance test. Nor should it be.

That is your opinion.
I think it is perfectly reasonable for 8th graders to spend extra time, even a LOT of extra time on extracurricular academics.
You basically want your values and standards to be everyone's values and standards and would rather see merit be ignored than measured in a way that rewards behavior that you don't like.
You don't want to subject your kid to academic competition at the tender age of 13.
You think 8th grade is too early to be studying hard.
I think 8th grade is late in the game.

They will all be studying for the SAT at 15 or 16.
Having the best and brightest students study for the PSAT at 13 is not inhumane.

Pot meet kettle!
Yes of course it is my opinion. Where did I say otherwise. In my opinion they should be evaluating how good the kids do in school not how much EC academic prepping their parents are willing to make them do. Other people disagree as you do clearly but it’s just opinion either way.

Moreover your approach is the more controlling one - For kids to be able to compete it ends up forcing them into the
EC academic rat race.
My way just focuses on what they are doing in school (including if they are in higher math classes) and so keeps the door open to more kids. Teach recc’s would still help differentiate the tippy top kids from the others and yes I think teachers can tell.

No they can't. Study after study tells us about teacher bias in recommendations. Peer reviewed research tells us that standardized test scores are the gold standard in predicting academic performance. I am not opposed to teach recommendations but you simply can't dismiss test scores.

So once again I have peer reviewed research and you've got your gut feelings and preferences (which coincidentally favor white kids)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They sort of tossed the baby out with the bath water. This is one piece of the old system I agree needs re-added as they would help ensure the absolute top kids from a given school are the ones selected for that school.

A test could do that better than recommendations.

We’ll agree to disagree. I’d agree if so many families in the area weren’t prepping for the test. But since they do, a teacher who has observed the kids day in day out is my preference Vs a test some prep for and some don’t.

People prep for the SAT and peer reviewed studies show that the SAT score is about the best predictor we have of academic performance at the high end of academic achievement.
https://opportunityinsights.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/SAT_ACT_on_Grades.pdf

So on the one hand I have peer reviewed research and on the other hand, you've got your gut feelings and preferences (which coincidentally favor white kids).

The difference being EVERYONE prepares for the SAT. That is the process. It is far from universal for 7th and 8th grade kids to take weekend or evening prep classes to try to get an edge on a magnet entrance test. Nor should it be.

That is your opinion.
I think it is perfectly reasonable for 8th graders to spend extra time, even a LOT of extra time on extracurricular academics.
You basically want your values and standards to be everyone's values and standards and would rather see merit be ignored than measured in a way that rewards behavior that you don't like.
You don't want to subject your kid to academic competition at the tender age of 13.
You think 8th grade is too early to be studying hard.
I think 8th grade is late in the game.

They will all be studying for the SAT at 15 or 16.
Having the best and brightest students study for the PSAT at 13 is not inhumane.

Pot meet kettle!
Yes of course it is my opinion. Where did I say otherwise. In my opinion they should be evaluating how good the kids do in school not how much EC academic prepping their parents are willing to make them do. Other people disagree as you do clearly but it’s just opinion either way.

Moreover your approach is the more controlling one - For kids to be able to compete it ends up forcing them into the
EC academic rat race.
My way just focuses on what they are doing in school (including if they are in higher math classes) and so keeps the door open to more kids. Teach recc’s would still help differentiate the tippy top kids from the others and yes I think teachers can tell.

No they can't. Study after study tells us about teacher bias in recommendations. Peer reviewed research tells us that standardized test scores are the gold standard in predicting academic performance. I am not opposed to teach recommendations but you simply can't dismiss test scores.

So once again I have peer reviewed research and you've got your gut feelings and preferences (which coincidentally favor white kids)

I’m mot arguing against using tests. They should use tests - grades from class plus SOLs. Account for the math level the kid is taking.

I’m just against the outside of school tests being used as it has been clearly documented that some families make their kids take academic ECs to prep for them and in my view that skews results.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They sort of tossed the baby out with the bath water. This is one piece of the old system I agree needs re-added as they would help ensure the absolute top kids from a given school are the ones selected for that school.

A test could do that better than recommendations.

We’ll agree to disagree. I’d agree if so many families in the area weren’t prepping for the test. But since they do, a teacher who has observed the kids day in day out is my preference Vs a test some prep for and some don’t.

People prep for the SAT and peer reviewed studies show that the SAT score is about the best predictor we have of academic performance at the high end of academic achievement.
https://opportunityinsights.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/SAT_ACT_on_Grades.pdf

So on the one hand I have peer reviewed research and on the other hand, you've got your gut feelings and preferences (which coincidentally favor white kids).

The difference being EVERYONE prepares for the SAT. That is the process. It is far from universal for 7th and 8th grade kids to take weekend or evening prep classes to try to get an edge on a magnet entrance test. Nor should it be.

That is your opinion.
I think it is perfectly reasonable for 8th graders to spend extra time, even a LOT of extra time on extracurricular academics.
You basically want your values and standards to be everyone's values and standards and would rather see merit be ignored than measured in a way that rewards behavior that you don't like.
You don't want to subject your kid to academic competition at the tender age of 13.
You think 8th grade is too early to be studying hard.
I think 8th grade is late in the game.

They will all be studying for the SAT at 15 or 16.
Having the best and brightest students study for the PSAT at 13 is not inhumane.

Pot meet kettle!
Yes of course it is my opinion. Where did I say otherwise. In my opinion they should be evaluating how good the kids do in school not how much EC academic prepping their parents are willing to make them do. Other people disagree as you do clearly but it’s just opinion either way.

Moreover your approach is the more controlling one - For kids to be able to compete it ends up forcing them into the
EC academic rat race.
My way just focuses on what they are doing in school (including if they are in higher math classes) and so keeps the door open to more kids. Teach recc’s would still help differentiate the tippy top kids from the others and yes I think teachers can tell.

No they can't. Study after study tells us about teacher bias in recommendations. Peer reviewed research tells us that standardized test scores are the gold standard in predicting academic performance. I am not opposed to teach recommendations but you simply can't dismiss test scores.

So once again I have peer reviewed research and you've got your gut feelings and preferences (which coincidentally favor white kids)

I’m mot arguing against using tests. They should use tests - grades from class plus SOLs. Account for the math level the kid is taking.

I’m just against the outside of school tests being used as it has been clearly documented that some families make their kids take academic ECs to prep for them and in my view that skews results.

And I'm telling you that the minute the SOL becomes the de facto admissions test, those same kids are going to stay studying for the SOLs.

So once again it is your view vs peer reviewed research.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Equity advocates tend to dislike teacher recommendations. They believe teacher recommendations are subject to racial bias.

They are *definitely* subject to bias against autistic and ADHD kids.

There are objective behavior and performance differences between ADHD/autistic kids and those that are not.

I need clarification on what you’re saying here, because it sure sounds like you’re saying that the things valued in AAP are inconsistent with the characteristics of 2e children, which kind of proves my point.

2e kids are exactly that. They are 2e.
It is not bias to measure all the kids by the same yardstick.

It is when the yardstick is specifically exclusionary towards the challenges of most 2e kids.

I mean, sure, I get that you want your special snowflake away from the disabled kids. Fortunately for you, if Larlo can get into TJ, there are almost no kids with disabilities there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Equity advocates tend to dislike teacher recommendations. They believe teacher recommendations are subject to racial bias.

They are *definitely* subject to bias against autistic and ADHD kids.

There are objective behavior and performance differences between ADHD/autistic kids and those that are not.

I need clarification on what you’re saying here, because it sure sounds like you’re saying that the things valued in AAP are inconsistent with the characteristics of 2e children, which kind of proves my point.

2e kids are exactly that. They are 2e.
It is not bias to measure all the kids by the same yardstick.

It is when the yardstick is specifically exclusionary towards the challenges of most 2e kids.

I mean, sure, I get that you want your special snowflake away from the disabled kids. Fortunately for you, if Larlo can get into TJ, there are almost no kids with disabilities there.

The yardstick right now is GPA and an essay exam. Is that exclusionary?
It used to be a test plus recommendations. You already said that was exclusionary
What reasonable yardstick would NOT exclude the 2e kids?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They sort of tossed the baby out with the bath water. This is one piece of the old system I agree needs re-added as they would help ensure the absolute top kids from a given school are the ones selected for that school.

A test could do that better than recommendations.

We’ll agree to disagree. I’d agree if so many families in the area weren’t prepping for the test. But since they do, a teacher who has observed the kids day in day out is my preference Vs a test some prep for and some don’t.

People prep for the SAT and peer reviewed studies show that the SAT score is about the best predictor we have of academic performance at the high end of academic achievement.
https://opportunityinsights.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/SAT_ACT_on_Grades.pdf

So on the one hand I have peer reviewed research and on the other hand, you've got your gut feelings and preferences (which coincidentally favor white kids).

The difference being EVERYONE prepares for the SAT. That is the process. It is far from universal for 7th and 8th grade kids to take weekend or evening prep classes to try to get an edge on a magnet entrance test. Nor should it be.

That is your opinion.
I think it is perfectly reasonable for 8th graders to spend extra time, even a LOT of extra time on extracurricular academics.
You basically want your values and standards to be everyone's values and standards and would rather see merit be ignored than measured in a way that rewards behavior that you don't like.
You don't want to subject your kid to academic competition at the tender age of 13.
You think 8th grade is too early to be studying hard.
I think 8th grade is late in the game.

They will all be studying for the SAT at 15 or 16.
Having the best and brightest students study for the PSAT at 13 is not inhumane.

Pot meet kettle!
Yes of course it is my opinion. Where did I say otherwise. In my opinion they should be evaluating how good the kids do in school not how much EC academic prepping their parents are willing to make them do. Other people disagree as you do clearly but it’s just opinion either way.

Moreover your approach is the more controlling one - For kids to be able to compete it ends up forcing them into the
EC academic rat race.
My way just focuses on what they are doing in school (including if they are in higher math classes) and so keeps the door open to more kids. Teach recc’s would still help differentiate the tippy top kids from the others and yes I think teachers can tell.

No they can't. Study after study tells us about teacher bias in recommendations. Peer reviewed research tells us that standardized test scores are the gold standard in predicting academic performance. I am not opposed to teach recommendations but you simply can't dismiss test scores.

So once again I have peer reviewed research and you've got your gut feelings and preferences (which coincidentally favor white kids)

I’m mot arguing against using tests. They should use tests - grades from class plus SOLs. Account for the math level the kid is taking.

I’m just against the outside of school tests being used as it has been clearly documented that some families make their kids take academic ECs to prep for them and in my view that skews results.

And I'm telling you that the minute the SOL becomes the de facto admissions test, those same kids are going to stay studying for the SOLs.

So once again it is your view vs peer reviewed research.

So be it re: SOLs - at least they are testing what has been taught in school. And I would STILL keep teacher recc’s.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Equity advocates tend to dislike teacher recommendations. They believe teacher recommendations are subject to racial bias.

and personality bias. If they don’t like your kid they’re out