William & Mary - St. Andrews Joint Degree Program

[Anonymous]

The website says that students take the first year at their “home” school (say, W&M), and second year at the other, and then can work out the order of location with their advisor for the last two years, so they could potentially do WM-StA-WM-StA or WM-StA-StA-WM. Do most students alternate, or do they prefer to stack the two abroad years together, sandwiched by freshman and senior years and their home college? I can think of pros and cons to both options.

[Anonymous]

OP, your child might also look into the dual degree programs offered by Trinity College Dublin/Columbia, Sciences Po (France)/Columbia and Sciences Po/UC Berkeley. All those are first two years abroad, final two years in the US.

Mine ultimately decided not to take the Trinity/Columbia offer but I know a lot about that process if you're interested.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My kid is an IR major at WM and has friends in the program. It has a higher than I would expect drop out rate. I don’t remember the exact percent, but it was decent. Some kids love it and thrive. Some kids get settled on one campus or the other and don’t want to miss two years on that campus, or end up feeling like the just got settled in one place and then it’s time to start over. I think your kid’s personality plays a big role here and they should think carefully about what they want their college experience to be.

My IR major didn’t apply because she wanted a second major in a foreign language, which was not possible. I believe is was also OOS tuition (?) which was a factor, esp since since we are VA prepaid 529. And the program is structured was such that study abroad at not St. Andrews for language immersion wouldn’t be possible, even if she could get the second language.

Academically, it’s apparently a great program with great outcomes. Your kids personality plays just needs to really think about whether going back and forth between the two schools is the college experience they want.

I wouldn't call it a "drop out rate" as the students stay do enrolled in (and graduate from) either excellent university.

[Anonymous]

My experience at St Andrews was that a number of the kids in the JDP (the group starting their time at St Andrews) did decide to leave the programme and instead do the full four years at St Andrews. Or for those who did go to W&M for second year, decided to finish out years 3&4 at St Andrews (rather than doing two years at each uni). Many did successfully complete the programme and enjoyed the experience.

My impression is that the switching is a tad difficult? Also, while the universities are perhaps similar on paper (rural location, beautiful campus, mid-size, undergrad-focused, residential, research university), they are quite different in practice.

St Andrews student body is very international, moneyed and cosmopolitan. Whereas W&M skews towards UMC Americans, majority (?) from VA.

I've heard the social scenes are different: frats at W&M versus fashion shows, balls, raves, sports societies at St Andrews.

Also FWIW the grading at W&M is easier than St Andrews. Students in the JDP have massive boosts to their GPA when their American grades are converted to the UK system.

Visit both schools if you can. Having visited both, the vibes are very different. W&M was great and seemed happy, but I loved St Andrews and it felt like a much better fit.

[Anonymous]

In fairness also, there's no harm in starting with the programme and then finding after a year at both that you like one university better, and choosing that one for your last two years.

Then you've just done a year abroad as many do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does anyone have experience with this program? I have a kid who is intrigued by it and would love to hear more.

What's the student's social experience like? Do they get to join clubs, activities at each place? Do they feel part of each commjnity>
How many kids are in it each year? Do they stick together - is this their friend group?
How does housing work at St A's? Is it provided or do they have to find off campus flats?
Can they double major or minor in something else?

Have a kid in the program so will answer questions asked and try to anticipate some:

They have friends that are part of the program and at both schools. Since you have a group going back and forth, you are not going abroad alone. That said, it is in some ways like having two freshman years when you go to the other school sophomore (2nd) year. Over time they feel part of each community, W&M, St Andrews and the JDP. Housing is guaranteed at St. Andrews but some choose to move into rental flats. You cannot double major but you can minor. DC joined clubs at both schools and has had a good social experience maintaining friends at both schools. The number of students in the program varies from year to year and students do drop out of the program for a variety of reasons.

The program has been great for my DC, but it is not for everyone. Two vary distinct learning and grading styles at each school. Kids at university in the UK are adults and treated as such. St, Andrews offers no hand holding or coddling, they have rules and you need to follow them. Very few graded items, usually only two or three per semester per class and you will take 2 or 3 classes per semester depending on major. Not into reading on your own and not into or good at writing papers, then it is going to be a struggle. Grades only count in honors classes (3rd & 4th) years, but do count on W&M GPA, so don't expect to graduate with 3.8 and above.

Kids usually only come home during semester break when at St. Andrews but travel around Europe on fall and spring breaks. It can be rough getting out of class at 3:00PM and having it be dark. Often rainy as well. Like everything in life there are plusses and minuses. DC has gotten a great education, become more independent and resilient and is capable of traveling the world on her own.

If your kid is interested in working in the UK, they get an automatic 2 year work visa as a graduate of a distinguished UK university.

Hope that helps.

^^ can you link to where the HPI visa applies to the WM/StA programme? Can’t seem to find the information, thank you

[Anonymous]

this sounds a very expensive proposition with no AP credit allowed, travel costs, visa fees etc wow

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:this sounds a very expensive proposition with no AP credit allowed, travel costs, visa fees etc wow

Study abroad programs inherently require extra costs, and joint programs like these that are 2 and 2 are like study abroad on steroids. So yeah. Not for everyone.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:this sounds a very expensive proposition with no AP credit allowed, travel costs, visa fees etc wow

$48k sticker price tuition for the JDP isn't crazy. Maybe not the best bet for those who aren't full pay, although W&M offers financial aid for the JDP.

Tuition elsewhere (not incl. living room and board, additional costs, etc.) for reference:

W&M: $43k sticker OOS
St Andrews: $38k (£30k) international fees for entrants this year (rate locks in for four years)
Middlebury: $67k
NYU: $62k

So it looks like the minimum sticker tuition price for top privates is c. $60k and for good publics (OOS) c. $45k

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does anyone have experience with this program? I have a kid who is intrigued by it and would love to hear more.

What's the student's social experience like? Do they get to join clubs, activities at each place? Do they feel part of each commjnity>
How many kids are in it each year? Do they stick together - is this their friend group?
How does housing work at St A's? Is it provided or do they have to find off campus flats?
Can they double major or minor in something else?

Have a kid in the program so will answer questions asked and try to anticipate some:

They have friends that are part of the program and at both schools. Since you have a group going back and forth, you are not going abroad alone. That said, it is in some ways like having two freshman years when you go to the other school sophomore (2nd) year. Over time they feel part of each community, W&M, St Andrews and the JDP. Housing is guaranteed at St. Andrews but some choose to move into rental flats. You cannot double major but you can minor. DC joined clubs at both schools and has had a good social experience maintaining friends at both schools. The number of students in the program varies from year to year and students do drop out of the program for a variety of reasons.

The program has been great for my DC, but it is not for everyone. Two vary distinct learning and grading styles at each school. Kids at university in the UK are adults and treated as such. St, Andrews offers no hand holding or coddling, they have rules and you need to follow them. Very few graded items, usually only two or three per semester per class and you will take 2 or 3 classes per semester depending on major. Not into reading on your own and not into or good at writing papers, then it is going to be a struggle. Grades only count in honors classes (3rd & 4th) years, but do count on W&M GPA, so don't expect to graduate with 3.8 and above.

Kids usually only come home during semester break when at St. Andrews but travel around Europe on fall and spring breaks. It can be rough getting out of class at 3:00PM and having it be dark. Often rainy as well. Like everything in life there are plusses and minuses. DC has gotten a great education, become more independent and resilient and is capable of traveling the world on her own.

If your kid is interested in working in the UK, they get an automatic 2 year work visa as a graduate of a distinguished UK university.

Hope that helps.

^^ can you link to where the HPI visa applies to the WM/StA programme? Can’t seem to find the information, thank you

Not the HPI as far as I know. International graduates with a St Andrews degree (the JDP confers one from both universities) are eligible for the graduate visa, which allows you to live freely and work without restrictions in the UK for two years.

https://www.gov.uk/graduate-visa

[Anonymous]

Your student could just do a semester there. That is what mine IR DD is planning to do.

[Anonymous]

Where does it state that this particular programme’s graduates are eligible for any UK work visa? Don’t see it on W&M site and one would think that would be emphasised as a bonus for participating in the programme.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:this sounds a very expensive proposition with no AP credit allowed, travel costs, visa fees etc wow

Study abroad programs inherently require extra costs, and joint programs like these that are 2 and 2 are like study abroad on steroids. So yeah. Not for everyone.

Plus if you live in VA, you have to pay OOS tuition. That was a deal killer for us.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:this sounds a very expensive proposition with no AP credit allowed, travel costs, visa fees etc wow

Study abroad programs inherently require extra costs, and joint programs like these that are 2 and 2 are like study abroad on steroids. So yeah. Not for everyone.

Plus if you live in VA, you have to pay OOS tuition. That was a deal killer for us.

Really? Do you have a cite for that?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Where does it state that this particular programme’s graduates are eligible for any UK work visa? Don’t see it on W&M site and one would think that would be emphasised as a bonus for participating in the programme.

Students in the JDP are graduates of both schools. International students with an undergraduate degree are eligible for a 2 year graduate route visa https://study-uk.britishcouncil.org/after-your-studies/graduate-route