Die With Zero

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The entire point of my existence is to live happily while passing on the bulk of my fortune to my children. Something my family has done, or attempted to do, for generations.

So I'll pass on the nonsense advice, thanks.

Tend to agree. Do not ignore the moment. Have fun, enjoy life. Also save. You can do both. Unless you hate your kids, passing on wealth is important. You could think -- I made mine so they have to make theirs -- sure. But life does not work that way -- it is unfair and someone with all the right moves falls flat ont heir face -- or does fine but never gets their shot or has a very ill child or a divorce or maybe they have to quit their job for a moral reason -- will not fudge numbers -- and that is the end of their run. You never know. Hopefully you leave your money and the kids have a fun life but they may not and may need that money you blew for no reason at all. Don't deny yoursefl. Don't act stupid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Another thing is that if you don’t learn how to spend (responsibly) now, you definitely aren’t going to learn it in retirement. You will be too set in your ways at that point. I have seen countless retirees who sit on huge savings and do nothing with it because they lived their lives saving every dollar possible, and they don’t know how to spend.

I don't think it's that hard to learn how to spend money responsibly - at least it's not harder than saving every dollar possible. I also kind of doubt that these people regret dying with money in the bank, and they probably enjoy being able to pass down their wealth to whoever they want. I think the way to convince people who've been scrimping their whole life to spend more is to figure out what their goals are, and show them why spending now, rather than later, will align with those goals.

For example, the Die with Zero author makes the argument that, no matter what you want to do with your fortune (spend it, pass it down to future generations, donate it to charity), that it's best to start doing it earlier than later. I believe his book (only listened to a podcast) talks about how charities can change with subsequent directors, so you don't know how they'll be run 5 to 10 years into the future, and that it's easier to make sure the charity aligns with your goals if you're still alive when giving them the donation. For giving to future generations, it's better to help them fund college, grad school, down payment for a house, etc., than to give your 60 year old children a lump sum. Obviously, with travel, you'll have more fun doing it at age 40 than 70. If you have family members that refuse to spend, maybe try talking to them about what they're hoping to get out of the money that they're saving.

Why is this obvious? I enjoy things on which I have spent money but which have not detracted from my financial goals. I’m 42 but would not enjoy a $15,000 vacation now because I have other financial goals which that would delay - I’d be thinking about that even while taking in the beautiful scenery. I’m not saying you have to wait till 70, but I know for sure I would enjoy that trip more at 52 than 42.

This age stuff is a bit odd. It is not the 1940s and 1950s. At 70 most people should be able to do most if not all of what they could do at 60. Even at 80 most people today should be reptty heathy to do whatever. At the moment YMMV after 80. People who are 40 today when they are 80 -- that will feel like 70 or 75 does today. We are living longer and healthier and that will expand greatly over the next 20-40 years. In the 1950s you were old at 65. The 1950s 65 is 80 today.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Another thing is that if you don’t learn how to spend (responsibly) now, you definitely aren’t going to learn it in retirement. You will be too set in your ways at that point. I have seen countless retirees who sit on huge savings and do nothing with it because they lived their lives saving every dollar possible, and they don’t know how to spend.

I don't think it's that hard to learn how to spend money responsibly - at least it's not harder than saving every dollar possible. I also kind of doubt that these people regret dying with money in the bank, and they probably enjoy being able to pass down their wealth to whoever they want. I think the way to convince people who've been scrimping their whole life to spend more is to figure out what their goals are, and show them why spending now, rather than later, will align with those goals.

For example, the Die with Zero author makes the argument that, no matter what you want to do with your fortune (spend it, pass it down to future generations, donate it to charity), that it's best to start doing it earlier than later. I believe his book (only listened to a podcast) talks about how charities can change with subsequent directors, so you don't know how they'll be run 5 to 10 years into the future, and that it's easier to make sure the charity aligns with your goals if you're still alive when giving them the donation. For giving to future generations, it's better to help them fund college, grad school, down payment for a house, etc., than to give your 60 year old children a lump sum. Obviously, with travel, you'll have more fun doing it at age 40 than 70. If you have family members that refuse to spend, maybe try talking to them about what they're hoping to get out of the money that they're saving.

Why is this obvious? I enjoy things on which I have spent money but which have not detracted from my financial goals. I’m 42 but would not enjoy a $15,000 vacation now because I have other financial goals which that would delay - I’d be thinking about that even while taking in the beautiful scenery. I’m not saying you have to wait till 70, but I know for sure I would enjoy that trip more at 52 than 42.

This age stuff is a bit odd. It is not the 1940s and 1950s. At 70 most people should be able to do most if not all of what they could do at 60. Even at 80 most people today should be reptty heathy to do whatever. At the moment YMMV after 80. People who are 40 today when they are 80 -- that will feel like 70 or 75 does today. We are living longer and healthier and that will expand greatly over the next 20-40 years. In the 1950s you were old at 65. The 1950s 65 is 80 today.

You don't have aging parents yet, I am assuming

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Another thing is that if you don’t learn how to spend (responsibly) now, you definitely aren’t going to learn it in retirement. You will be too set in your ways at that point. I have seen countless retirees who sit on huge savings and do nothing with it because they lived their lives saving every dollar possible, and they don’t know how to spend.

I don't think it's that hard to learn how to spend money responsibly - at least it's not harder than saving every dollar possible. I also kind of doubt that these people regret dying with money in the bank, and they probably enjoy being able to pass down their wealth to whoever they want. I think the way to convince people who've been scrimping their whole life to spend more is to figure out what their goals are, and show them why spending now, rather than later, will align with those goals.

For example, the Die with Zero author makes the argument that, no matter what you want to do with your fortune (spend it, pass it down to future generations, donate it to charity), that it's best to start doing it earlier than later. I believe his book (only listened to a podcast) talks about how charities can change with subsequent directors, so you don't know how they'll be run 5 to 10 years into the future, and that it's easier to make sure the charity aligns with your goals if you're still alive when giving them the donation. For giving to future generations, it's better to help them fund college, grad school, down payment for a house, etc., than to give your 60 year old children a lump sum. Obviously, with travel, you'll have more fun doing it at age 40 than 70. If you have family members that refuse to spend, maybe try talking to them about what they're hoping to get out of the money that they're saving.

Why is this obvious? I enjoy things on which I have spent money but which have not detracted from my financial goals. I’m 42 but would not enjoy a $15,000 vacation now because I have other financial goals which that would delay - I’d be thinking about that even while taking in the beautiful scenery. I’m not saying you have to wait till 70, but I know for sure I would enjoy that trip more at 52 than 42.

This age stuff is a bit odd. It is not the 1940s and 1950s. At 70 most people should be able to do most if not all of what they could do at 60. Even at 80 most people today should be reptty heathy to do whatever. At the moment YMMV after 80. People who are 40 today when they are 80 -- that will feel like 70 or 75 does today. We are living longer and healthier and that will expand greatly over the next 20-40 years. In the 1950s you were old at 65. The 1950s 65 is 80 today.

The life expectancy for people in the United States as of 2018 (pre-covid) is 78.64, so most people will be dead, rather than healthy, at 80.

In the 1950s, the average life expectancy in the United States was 68 years old. So if you were to compare, I guess 75 of today is the 65 in 1950.

[Anonymous]

OP, I like that philosophy. In fact, when our financial advisor asked us what we wanted to leave our children, I surprised him and said "as close to nothing as possible."

It's not because I don't want to spend money on our kids. We've given our children an incredible start in life. Private schools all the way through, a ton of travel and activities, private tutors and coaches. When they both get to 25, we'll probably give them a down-payment for a condo to get them started. And we'll enjoy being alive to see them enjoy what we give them.

We've had to work really hard to do this. We deserve to spend on ourselves when we retire in 3 years -- while we're healthy enough to do it. Yes, health costs are an unknown so we won't be stupid. But the financial plan that ended with us dying at 95 and leaving our kids $7M? No thanks. I might be interested in leaving a small trust to help with educational costs for future generations, but that'll probably be it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Another thing is that if you don’t learn how to spend (responsibly) now, you definitely aren’t going to learn it in retirement. You will be too set in your ways at that point. I have seen countless retirees who sit on huge savings and do nothing with it because they lived their lives saving every dollar possible, and they don’t know how to spend.

I don't think it's that hard to learn how to spend money responsibly - at least it's not harder than saving every dollar possible. I also kind of doubt that these people regret dying with money in the bank, and they probably enjoy being able to pass down their wealth to whoever they want. I think the way to convince people who've been scrimping their whole life to spend more is to figure out what their goals are, and show them why spending now, rather than later, will align with those goals.

For example, the Die with Zero author makes the argument that, no matter what you want to do with your fortune (spend it, pass it down to future generations, donate it to charity), that it's best to start doing it earlier than later. I believe his book (only listened to a podcast) talks about how charities can change with subsequent directors, so you don't know how they'll be run 5 to 10 years into the future, and that it's easier to make sure the charity aligns with your goals if you're still alive when giving them the donation. For giving to future generations, it's better to help them fund college, grad school, down payment for a house, etc., than to give your 60 year old children a lump sum. Obviously, with travel, you'll have more fun doing it at age 40 than 70. If you have family members that refuse to spend, maybe try talking to them about what they're hoping to get out of the money that they're saving.

Why is this obvious? I enjoy things on which I have spent money but which have not detracted from my financial goals. I’m 42 but would not enjoy a $15,000 vacation now because I have other financial goals which that would delay - I’d be thinking about that even while taking in the beautiful scenery. I’m not saying you have to wait till 70, but I know for sure I would enjoy that trip more at 52 than 42.

This age stuff is a bit odd. It is not the 1940s and 1950s. At 70 most people should be able to do most if not all of what they could do at 60. Even at 80 most people today should be reptty heathy to do whatever. At the moment YMMV after 80. People who are 40 today when they are 80 -- that will feel like 70 or 75 does today. We are living longer and healthier and that will expand greatly over the next 20-40 years. In the 1950s you were old at 65. The 1950s 65 is 80 today.

What are you talking about? More than half the population dies before they get to 80. And the percentage that get to 80 without major health issues is small minority. Sure, there are some. But don't expect this to be the norm.

[Anonymous]

I worry that even though DH and I have enough to potentially die leaving a lot behind, I don’t know what the future brings regarding healthcare expenses/needs. A friend’s 66 yr old DW recently had a stroke and even with Medicare paying for almost everything up front, over time her extreme physical and mental disabilities will wipe them out. This worries me — healthcare costs and money not being what it used to be — and keeps me from spending.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Another thing is that if you don’t learn how to spend (responsibly) now, you definitely aren’t going to learn it in retirement. You will be too set in your ways at that point. I have seen countless retirees who sit on huge savings and do nothing with it because they lived their lives saving every dollar possible, and they don’t know how to spend.

I don't think it's that hard to learn how to spend money responsibly - at least it's not harder than saving every dollar possible. I also kind of doubt that these people regret dying with money in the bank, and they probably enjoy being able to pass down their wealth to whoever they want. I think the way to convince people who've been scrimping their whole life to spend more is to figure out what their goals are, and show them why spending now, rather than later, will align with those goals.

For example, the Die with Zero author makes the argument that, no matter what you want to do with your fortune (spend it, pass it down to future generations, donate it to charity), that it's best to start doing it earlier than later. I believe his book (only listened to a podcast) talks about how charities can change with subsequent directors, so you don't know how they'll be run 5 to 10 years into the future, and that it's easier to make sure the charity aligns with your goals if you're still alive when giving them the donation. For giving to future generations, it's better to help them fund college, grad school, down payment for a house, etc., than to give your 60 year old children a lump sum. Obviously, with travel, you'll have more fun doing it at age 40 than 70. If you have family members that refuse to spend, maybe try talking to them about what they're hoping to get out of the money that they're saving.

Why is this obvious? I enjoy things on which I have spent money but which have not detracted from my financial goals. I’m 42 but would not enjoy a $15,000 vacation now because I have other financial goals which that would delay - I’d be thinking about that even while taking in the beautiful scenery. I’m not saying you have to wait till 70, but I know for sure I would enjoy that trip more at 52 than 42.

Are you really saying that, if you had the money, you would rather take the trip at 52 than 42? FWIW, Die with Zero is directed at people with money, not the average joe who has 150K in net worth at age 65.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Another thing is that if you don’t learn how to spend (responsibly) now, you definitely aren’t going to learn it in retirement. You will be too set in your ways at that point. I have seen countless retirees who sit on huge savings and do nothing with it because they lived their lives saving every dollar possible, and they don’t know how to spend.

I don't think it's that hard to learn how to spend money responsibly - at least it's not harder than saving every dollar possible. I also kind of doubt that these people regret dying with money in the bank, and they probably enjoy being able to pass down their wealth to whoever they want. I think the way to convince people who've been scrimping their whole life to spend more is to figure out what their goals are, and show them why spending now, rather than later, will align with those goals.

For example, the Die with Zero author makes the argument that, no matter what you want to do with your fortune (spend it, pass it down to future generations, donate it to charity), that it's best to start doing it earlier than later. I believe his book (only listened to a podcast) talks about how charities can change with subsequent directors, so you don't know how they'll be run 5 to 10 years into the future, and that it's easier to make sure the charity aligns with your goals if you're still alive when giving them the donation. For giving to future generations, it's better to help them fund college, grad school, down payment for a house, etc., than to give your 60 year old children a lump sum. Obviously, with travel, you'll have more fun doing it at age 40 than 70. If you have family members that refuse to spend, maybe try talking to them about what they're hoping to get out of the money that they're saving.

Why is this obvious? I enjoy things on which I have spent money but which have not detracted from my financial goals. I’m 42 but would not enjoy a $15,000 vacation now because I have other financial goals which that would delay - I’d be thinking about that even while taking in the beautiful scenery. I’m not saying you have to wait till 70, but I know for sure I would enjoy that trip more at 52 than 42.

This age stuff is a bit odd. It is not the 1940s and 1950s. At 70 most people should be able to do most if not all of what they could do at 60. Even at 80 most people today should be reptty heathy to do whatever. At the moment YMMV after 80. People who are 40 today when they are 80 -- that will feel like 70 or 75 does today. We are living longer and healthier and that will expand greatly over the next 20-40 years. In the 1950s you were old at 65. The 1950s 65 is 80 today.

You don't have aging parents yet, I am assuming

Seriously. 70-ish can be very different from 60-ish and it can happen suddenly and be different (worse) than how their parents aged. And 80? Many are dead. Also average or expected life expectancy doesn't matter to an individual the same way it does at a population level. I don't care if most people are okay at 70 or 80 (if that's even true?). I care if I get to see and do the things I want to do and if it's with my spouse.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I worry that even though DH and I have enough to potentially die leaving a lot behind, I don’t know what the future brings regarding healthcare expenses/needs. A friend’s 66 yr old DW recently had a stroke and even with Medicare paying for almost everything up front, over time her extreme physical and mental disabilities will wipe them out. This worries me — healthcare costs and money not being what it used to be — and keeps me from spending.

Do you know the life expectancy of someone who has a stroke at 66? I'm just curious because I keep hearing people being afraid they'll be stuck with long term medical bills, but I can't imagine many people living to 100 years old with severe medical issues at 66. According to this website, only about 50% of people live past 5 years post stroke. https://www.healthline.com/health/stroke/stroke-prognosis

[Anonymous]

The books author probably owns a travel business! We are retired with more money than we need and while we do spend a good amount on experiences more of our money goes into 529 plans for grandchildren, trusts and charity. When we die, what’s left will all go to charity. Most of our favorite experiences are with our family and that costs very little.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The entire point of my existence is to live happily while passing on the bulk of my fortune to my children. Something my family has done, or attempted to do, for generations.

So I'll pass on the nonsense advice, thanks.

Tend to agree. Do not ignore the moment. Have fun, enjoy life. Also save. You can do both. Unless you hate your kids, passing on wealth is important. You could think -- I made mine so they have to make theirs -- sure. But life does not work that way -- it is unfair and someone with all the right moves falls flat ont heir face -- or does fine but never gets their shot or has a very ill child or a divorce or maybe they have to quit their job for a moral reason -- will not fudge numbers -- and that is the end of their run. You never know. Hopefully you leave your money and the kids have a fun life but they may not and may need that money you blew for no reason at all. Don't deny yoursefl. Don't act stupid.

Same here. I came from nothing and worked hard to accumulate wealth. Yes, I worked hard, but there was a substantial luck component. My children are unlikely to repeat that. Why not leave them a comfortable cushion? If I wanted to die with zero, I could quit now. But I also want to instill good work ethic in my children, so I plan on working and saving for another 10 years. With some luck, I will still be healthy enough for another decade of traveling and collecting memories.

[Anonymous]

I have the book and many similar ones. I think I have found my happy place for now, but it is a balancing act. It's also very personal.
As of right now, I don't have to work for money, but can add work as the 'enjoyable experience'.
I will never have to take care of my parents.
My very young kid already has an investment account. I found it easier to start theirs early and keep it separate from mine.
I worked in a very toxic environment. Getting out of it overtook any need to try to Die with zero. Such problems arise and then back to balancing my life.
It's a short book. I would recommend it, but don't expect most people to be able to follow it a whole lot.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The entire point of my existence is to live happily while passing on the bulk of my fortune to my children. Something my family has done, or attempted to do, for generations.

So I'll pass on the nonsense advice, thanks.

Tend to agree. Do not ignore the moment. Have fun, enjoy life. Also save. You can do both. Unless you hate your kids, passing on wealth is important. You could think -- I made mine so they have to make theirs -- sure. But life does not work that way -- it is unfair and someone with all the right moves falls flat ont heir face -- or does fine but never gets their shot or has a very ill child or a divorce or maybe they have to quit their job for a moral reason -- will not fudge numbers -- and that is the end of their run. You never know. Hopefully you leave your money and the kids have a fun life but they may not and may need that money you blew for no reason at all. Don't deny yoursefl. Don't act stupid.

Same here. I came from nothing and worked hard to accumulate wealth. Yes, I worked hard, but there was a substantial luck component. My children are unlikely to repeat that. Why not leave them a comfortable cushion? If I wanted to die with zero, I could quit now. But I also want to instill good work ethic in my children, so I plan on working and saving for another 10 years. With some luck, I will still be healthy enough for another decade of traveling and collecting memories.

+1 million. Doesn’t matter how talented you are, not every generation gets lucky in creating wealth. I am enjoying now as I take trips with my kids but the bulk of our money will be left to them. They are smart and hardworking but you can never predict the luck factor. The only thing with which I probably agree with the author is to spend on travel now, in my late forties/early fifties, I don’t want to travel a lot after retirement. That time is for my garden.

[Anonymous]

I guess I just don't know anyone who fits the description of a money hoarder. The handful of rich people I know are spending money to enjoy their lives AND actively giving it away (to help their kids and to charities) AND will have a huge pile at the end, which will go to their kids, grandkids and charities. The other folks (like me) are trying to save what we can and hope to not outlive our money.