Not Everyone DESERVES Secondary School Education

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:“Other countries, that don’t automatically give everyone a secondary school education such as Germany and Netherlands seem to do well.”

What do you mean by not automatically give everyone secondary school education? Kids in at least one of the two countries you mention have to go to school until 16 by law.

Correct in both countries students must attend “school” to that age. But the thing is that ”school” there encompasses apprenticeships and vocational training. They take exams in middle school to determine if the “school” to they will attend is STEM, vocational, business, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I disagree with the premise of your post. It's not about which kids "deserve" an education. In theory, every kid is deserving of an education.

The issue might actually be whether a traditional HS education is a good fit for every kid. Maybe not, but there aren't any viable alternatives.

DP and another HS teacher. A viable alternative is working--at anything legal. It's better than being babysat while on your phone and doing essentially no work for 4 years, during which you are at best wasting the education financed by taxpayers, not to mention wasting some of the best years of your life. The money saved could be put to good use on lots of other things--infrastructure, community services, public health, housing assistance, etc. Those kids could even be provided with a voucher to come back later to some form of adult high school once they realize that learning matters.

Right now they effectively fail up, get a worthless and expensive "college" diploma (assuming they graduate) , and more than half end up worse off financially than if they'd never gone to college since they've wasted another 4 years and tens of thousands of dollars warming up a seat, but this time in college:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/careersandeducation/more-than-half-of-college-grads-are-stuck-in-jobs-that-dont-require-degrees/ar-BB1iL98p

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This sounds like someone from flyover who wants cheap labor for their meatpacking plant.

In order to have educated voters, everyone needs to study American government. Trades people create jobs because many run their own businesses. They need secondary math. Geometry proofs help people learn logic an reasoning skills. Literature helps people to empathize with others from different walks of life. Half of the recent innovations in tech started life on sci-fi shows.

European countries silo their kids early. It's not good preparation for the more flexible US job market. It also means that a lot of voters in Europe are low info; a lot of these countries have fascist parties and vote for insane GDP-wreckers like Brexit.

OP. But the USA has just of a high concentration of low info voters as Europe nations.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There was a time when vocational training was part of a high school curriculum. There was shop class, automotive class, etc... It's too bad those were phased out because I think there are lots of kids who are attracted to that sort of hands on learning.
I agree that the Great Gatsby isn't for everyone.

It still is. Why aren't you aware of current vocational programs in high schools?

[Anonymous]

I think vocational high schools, like they have in Germany, are really valuable. I have a family member who attended vocational high school and is now the CEO of a mid-sized company. She’s not wealthy, because she doesn’t own the company, and they fine over-pay CEOs there. Her husband also attended a vocational high school and now sells used cars. He’s always quick to explain that it’s an honorable job over there, and that he has to have a lot of specialized knowledge. They have a nice life.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think vocational high schools, like they have in Germany, are really valuable. I have a family member who attended vocational high school and is now the CEO of a mid-sized company. She’s not wealthy, because she doesn’t own the company, and they don’t over-pay CEOs there. Her husband also attended a vocational high school and now sells used cars. He’s always quick to explain that it’s an honorable job over there, and that he has to have a lot of specialized knowledge. They have a nice life.

[Anonymous]

“too many bad apples”? You might have had some sort of point until you painted all kids not able to be successful in a fairly rigid high school environment as “bad apples.”

[Anonymous]

I’ll agree to that if you agree that only people with college degrees can vote.

/s

[Anonymous]

Agree, the US would do well to adopt the UK’s education system. Too much wasted resources on those not suited for a traditional US K-12 based system for a variety of reasons.

[Anonymous]

I see both points. As I understand, there are vocational schools out there but it’s not at the level that meets the needs of our community. It must be extremely frustrating to be a high school teacher for kids who don’t want to be there. But at the same time, these kids need to be educated. I think the problem started earlier when those kids never get a good foundation to begin with and give up at high school. If the kid can barely do basic math, he’s not comprehending geometric proofs. I think a hybrid vocational school that also teaches lower level of general education is the solution.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No. Everyone needs k-12. But it doesnt have to be college track for everyone. There is a lot of practical knowledge (like taxes and how govt works) that we need for people to know. All these people will be able to vote for people and policies, they need to know what they are choosing.

Unpopular opinion but as a HS teacher I actually agree. My students roam the hall aimlessly. They pass eventually because of terrible grading and attendance policies but aren't learning anything. They desperately need personal finance and life skills, soft job skills and a trade. They're stuck in a cycle of poverty with no way out, and algebra and the Great Gatsby isn't going to help if they're not motivated.

This is the problem with the system - not with the kids. First, locally controlled school districts have been a failure. What does Karl Fritsche (or any of them frankly) know about running an enormous school district? Nothing. He's good at campaigning and good for him - but not good for the kids or the schools. Second, studies have shown that when the economy is stagnating (which it is), kids' motivation will lag - they don't see a good reason to learn if they are just going to work as an Amazon driver. and watch Netflix all weekend. That is true - but it's our job to show that the economy won't always have so few opportunities and if they learn now, they will be better prepared to take advantage of it later.

A well-educated society is really important for maintaining a healthy economy and a healthy democracy. Don't give up on the kids.

[Anonymous]

I have a feeling that OP would be all for this plan until her precious angel got put on the alternate track.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have a feeling that OP would be all for this plan until her precious angel got put on the alternate track.

OP. AWS engineer. Older Brother GCP engineer. Youngest sibling however, had a mental disability and lacks a high school education, but is able to earn a respectable living by doing a trade program.

[Anonymous]

Liberals have destroyed education.
DEI is destroying America.

[Anonymous]

The question is not whether the per student cost is wasted on some kids, the question is how can we best spend the money to benefit all kids and society as a whole?

Every kid deserves a chance and support - but not every kid is college bound. The kids who sleep through class and do the minimum are getting some exposure to adults who care and a structured environment. If you let them drop out at age 13, you might as well just send a lot of them work dead end jobs with their parents or straight to jail. That costs society so much more in the long run.

Kids with learning disabilities, mental health challenges, and neurodivergent conditions deserve the opportunity to learn the skills needed to live independently and function in society. School is well organized to provide those services - it’s just that schools are underfunded and understaffed. Again, I see special education as an investment that saves money in the long run. Some citizens will always need services, but others will have a reduced need for social services if they have a solid start.

I grew up in a semi-rural community where it was not considered shameful to not be college-bound. My HS had programs that allowed students to opt in for junior and senior year so they could graduate with their cosmetology license, or basic training in auto repair, heating and A/C repair, or ready to enter an apprenticeship to be an electrician, plumber, or carpenter. We need skilled tradespeople and a kid who acts out or blows off Biology or Physics might really thrive in a hands-on vocational program.