APEX - why are kids dropping out?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There's always attrition freshman year. The barriers to entry are not much (basically have above a certain GPA in MS) but the classes are more demanding than regular honors, and there are required AP classes starting in 9th - which are also harder than regular honors. So those that would rather get easier As in honors classes rather vs work a little harder in AP/APEX drop out. Also, there are those for whom the schedule doesn't work due to band/Varsity sports/other EC commitments without serious shuffling, which may not seem worth the effort.

How does it interfere with sports and EC commitments? I hadn’t heard this.

Only if they can't get the schedule to match up - I don't know that this happens, but I can see where it might. My kid never had a problem with it, but then again, not a varsity athlete or on a travel team.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No value to the program.

I’ve said this since 2017. WJ and parents acted like it was a prestigious program, but 9th graders elsewhere are managing AP courses without cohorting and a study hall essentially.

What study hall?

There is no study hall

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There are still cohorts in Sophomore year. By the time you get to junior year, however, it's whatever AP classes you are in - so will likely be a mix of APEX and non.

True. But English 10 is much easier than 9 and Chem is not cohorted like Biology was

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No value to the program.

I’ve said this since 2017. WJ and parents acted like it was a prestigious program, but 9th graders elsewhere are managing AP courses without cohorting and a study hall essentially.

There is no study hall - at least not for my kid. DC perhaps could have "managed" without a cohort - but he benefitted immensely from cohort - in MS didn't really care about grades, but put with high-achieving kids that care - DC upped their game. DC will have completed 10 AP Courses before Senior year (and will take a handful more in senior year)- and has already received 2 5s and 2 3s on AP Exams in Freshman and Sophomore year - which, while not perfect, is still quite good for a kid that never studies and is a testament to the level of teaching in the APEX program. I would absolutely recommend it to anyone who has a kid that can achieve at that level but might need a little peer pressure to do so.

WJ teachers are fantastic but that doesn’t have anything to do with apex

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My DD is a freshman in the APEX program at Walter Johnson. She reports that a lot of kids are dropping out of the program. Does anyone know why this is happening?

So many here who don't know their WJ history.

Because APEX used to be a test-in program with 58 students accepted. Then it was a test-in program with an increased acceptance rate of 78 (in theory because there were so many more students they had to increase the program). Then, like so many participation trophies for all, they got rid of the cohorts (which is what made the program valuable and worthwhile), and made it open to anyone with a GPA of 3.5 in MS. Let's face it, that is the vast majority of students. And that was the undoing of the program. Too many who had no business being there in the first place

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My DD is a freshman in the APEX program at Walter Johnson. She reports that a lot of kids are dropping out of the program. Does anyone know why this is happening?

So many here who don't know their WJ history.

Because APEX used to be a test-in program with 58 students accepted. Then it was a test-in program with an increased acceptance rate of 78 (in theory because there were so many more students they had to increase the program). Then, like so many participation trophies for all, they got rid of the cohorts (which is what made the program valuable and worthwhile), and made it open to anyone with a GPA of 3.5 in MS. Let's face it, that is the vast majority of students. And that was the undoing of the program. Too many who had no business being there in the first place

Yes we know. But the new reality is what our kids are living in not the history. So we are commenting on current experience.

To be clear, WJ teachers are really good. But I think they are good whether they teach an APEX class or not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No value to the program.

I’ve said this since 2017. WJ and parents acted like it was a prestigious program, but 9th graders elsewhere are managing AP courses without cohorting and a study hall essentially.

What study hall?

There is no study hall

There used to be an extra period attached to APUSH. I can’t recall what it was called. It was essentially a study hall or what we used to call a discussion section.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No value to the program.

I’ve said this since 2017. WJ and parents acted like it was a prestigious program, but 9th graders elsewhere are managing AP courses without cohorting and a study hall essentially.

What study hall?

There is no study hall

There used to be an extra period attached to APUSH. I can’t recall what it was called. It was essentially a study hall or what we used to call a discussion section.

Not any more.

[Anonymous]

APEX isn't for everyone who initially enrolls. A lot of the STEM kids complain in 9th about the harder English class and see "no point," to continue in APEX, but when you look at who is doing best in WJ AP English language and Comp during Junior year it is the kids who stuck it out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My DD is a freshman in the APEX program at Walter Johnson. She reports that a lot of kids are dropping out of the program. Does anyone know why this is happening?

So many here who don't know their WJ history.

Because APEX used to be a test-in program with 58 students accepted. Then it was a test-in program with an increased acceptance rate of 78 (in theory because there were so many more students they had to increase the program). Then, like so many participation trophies for all, they got rid of the cohorts (which is what made the program valuable and worthwhile), and made it open to anyone with a GPA of 3.5 in MS. Let's face it, that is the vast majority of students. And that was the undoing of the program. Too many who had no business being there in the first place

Yes we know. But the new reality is what our kids are living in not the history. So we are commenting on current experience.

To be clear, WJ teachers are really good. But I think they are good whether they teach an APEX class or not.

The question was why are so many dropping out, and the answer is because they never should have been there in the first place. The above explains why

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My DD is a freshman in the APEX program at Walter Johnson. She reports that a lot of kids are dropping out of the program. Does anyone know why this is happening?

So many here who don't know their WJ history.

Because APEX used to be a test-in program with 58 students accepted. Then it was a test-in program with an increased acceptance rate of 78 (in theory because there were so many more students they had to increase the program). Then, like so many participation trophies for all, they got rid of the cohorts (which is what made the program valuable and worthwhile), and made it open to anyone with a GPA of 3.5 in MS. Let's face it, that is the vast majority of students. And that was the undoing of the program. Too many who had no business being there in the first place

Yes we know. But the new reality is what our kids are living in not the history. So we are commenting on current experience.

To be clear, WJ teachers are really good. But I think they are good whether they teach an APEX class or not.

The question was why are so many dropping out, and the answer is because they never should have been there in the first place. The above explains why

True. But the new method could be good if it captures more kids that would benefit from the program and eliminates an unnecessary competition in grade 8. The problem is really about the benefit. After grade 10, there isn’t any. You can take all the same AP classes, APEX or not. APEX is effectively a grade 9 program only plus maybe English 10.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Is that right that there is no cohorting in sophomore year for English? I don't think I realized that. My impression is that there aren't a lot of requirements for sophomore year, other than take a bunch of APs, so I'm not sure why that would drive kids out (unless they just are feeling turned off by their AP Gov class).

I have heard that they significantly changed the APEX Bio curriculum this year and made it much, much harder than Honors Bio (although on the transcript it is just reflected as Honors Bio). I don't know if some kids are maybe feeling a little burned by that. I'm a little curious what the average grades in that class are, and how it compares to the regular "honors" Bio.

They expanded the APEX program a LOT a few years ago -- maybe now they are trying to shrink it through an old-school look-to-your-left-look-to-your-right approach.

The best APEX bio teacher retired a couple years ago. APEX bio has always been harder than standard honors, but this may be a growing pains year if they are trying to teach to a test that is a month earlier than end of semester.

[Anonymous]

Why people stay, compare APEX to whole school:

https://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/siteassets/schools/high-schools/r-w/wjhs/uploadedfiles/programs/apex/profile-letter-apex-2023-2024-1.pdf

https://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/siteassets/schools/high-schools/r-w/wjhs/uploadedfiles/counseling/wj-profile-2023--2024.pdf

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Why people stay, compare APEX to whole school:

https://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/siteassets/schools/high-schools/r-w/wjhs/uploadedfiles/programs/apex/profile-letter-apex-2023-2024-1.pdf

https://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/siteassets/schools/high-schools/r-w/wjhs/uploadedfiles/counseling/wj-profile-2023--2024.pdf

But all this shows is that a selection of students from the top quarter of the class has better stats than the class as a whole. That is inherently true.

There isn’t an experience associated with this after grade 10 because the cohorting ends.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is that right that there is no cohorting in sophomore year for English? I don't think I realized that. My impression is that there aren't a lot of requirements for sophomore year, other than take a bunch of APs, so I'm not sure why that would drive kids out (unless they just are feeling turned off by their AP Gov class).

I have heard that they significantly changed the APEX Bio curriculum this year and made it much, much harder than Honors Bio (although on the transcript it is just reflected as Honors Bio). I don't know if some kids are maybe feeling a little burned by that. I'm a little curious what the average grades in that class are, and how it compares to the regular "honors" Bio.

They expanded the APEX program a LOT a few years ago -- maybe now they are trying to shrink it through an old-school look-to-your-left-look-to-your-right approach.

The best APEX bio teacher retired a couple years ago. APEX bio has always been harder than standard honors, but this may be a growing pains year if they are trying to teach to a test that is a month earlier than end of semester.

I don’t think it has to do with the state test as my understanding is the issue is unique to apex bio, not the other bio classes.
I’m very curious whether the drop out rate is higher than this year because of the bio issue. After seeing the post above, I asked my kid and they confirmed that they know many people dropping solely because of bio — that the tests cover material they haven’t been taught and most of the kids are saying it is by far their hardest class, harder than the APs they are taking. This includes some kids I know are very brigjt (we’re in the test-in CES program or the magnet middle schools). Given how easy the MS science classes are, I don’t think the kids were adequately prepared for what sounds like an almost AP level class.