If they accelerated math, did you regret it later?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yep. My kid is in APS. Did Intensified Algebra 1 in 7th, Intensified Geometry in 8th, Intensified Algebra II/Trig in 9th, and then we demoted her to regular Pre-calc in 10th (rather than Intensified Pre-calc) and Calc AB in 11th. She's taking AP Stats now -- many of the kids she was on the same track with are now taking Multivariable Calc (and took Calc BC in 11th instead of AB). She was pulled into the higher math classes in 6th grade because of a perfect SOL score, and I wholly regret that decision. It's been many years of stress for all of us and she now thinks she "isn't good at math" because she couldn't pull As in the advanced classes.

Why are you assuming that she wouldn't have struggled just as much with the higher math if she took it a year later? Also, why are you assuming that she would think she is "good at math" if she can see that a lot of other kids are on a higher math track?

Some kids are the types who didn't really understand pre-algebra and needed more foundational math. But others understood things perfectly, and then struggled with greater abstractions and higher level thinking when reaching algebra II. Waiting a year isn't a guarantee that your kid will sail through higher math classes with no struggles.

Likewise, some kids are the types who feel like they're not good at math if they struggle on the highest track. But other kids feel like they aren't good at math even if they're getting As, simply because they know they aren't on the highest track.

There is no easy answer.

There is an easy answer but nobody likes it: Stop pushing and stressing kids out with layers and layers of tests, and hire qualified teachers to teach them interesting things so that they develop a love for the subject while working at their own pace!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yep. My kid is in APS. Did Intensified Algebra 1 in 7th, Intensified Geometry in 8th, Intensified Algebra II/Trig in 9th, and then we demoted her to regular Pre-calc in 10th (rather than Intensified Pre-calc) and Calc AB in 11th. She's taking AP Stats now -- many of the kids she was on the same track with are now taking Multivariable Calc (and took Calc BC in 11th instead of AB). She was pulled into the higher math classes in 6th grade because of a perfect SOL score, and I wholly regret that decision. It's been many years of stress for all of us and she now thinks she "isn't good at math" because she couldn't pull As in the advanced classes.

Why are you assuming that she wouldn't have struggled just as much with the higher math if she took it a year later? Also, why are you assuming that she would think she is "good at math" if she can see that a lot of other kids are on a higher math track?

Some kids are the types who didn't really understand pre-algebra and needed more foundational math. But others understood things perfectly, and then struggled with greater abstractions and higher level thinking when reaching algebra II. Waiting a year isn't a guarantee that your kid will sail through higher math classes with no struggles.

Likewise, some kids are the types who feel like they're not good at math if they struggle on the highest track. But other kids feel like they aren't good at math even if they're getting As, simply because they know they aren't on the highest track.

There is no easy answer.

I personally experienced this and saw it even moreso with others on the Algebra II by 9th grade track.

And then I knew kids who were bored in the Pre-Calculus by 9th grade track.

Not sure what would have easily distinguished all of us in 6th grade or earlier.

You can't, people are wired to develop at their own pace. Abstraction is always hard to grasp, that's why extra time and effort on the student is needed, extra time to cover the difficult material in the classroom, and of course highly qualified teachers who are allowed to teach to the level of their classroom students striving for understanding. When the 'honors' or AP classes speed up to hit x topics in y days, that is when the students suffer. A few students continue to thrive and understand mainly because they were lucky enough to develop a love for the subject at an earlier age and spent much more time with the concepts via various avenues, continuing to get positive feedback, etc. Higher level math concepts aren't easy to understand; they require much more time and effort compared to many other things that are taught in school. Schools and curriculums adapt to this mainly by watering down the content, or speeding through it in a superficial way. In some sense they have to, otherwise way more kids than acceptable will fail the tests. Which is the problem in the first place: the focus on testing and comparison with others is killing students interest and motivation in the subject.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yep. My kid is in APS. Did Intensified Algebra 1 in 7th, Intensified Geometry in 8th, Intensified Algebra II/Trig in 9th, and then we demoted her to regular Pre-calc in 10th (rather than Intensified Pre-calc) and Calc AB in 11th. She's taking AP Stats now -- many of the kids she was on the same track with are now taking Multivariable Calc (and took Calc BC in 11th instead of AB). She was pulled into the higher math classes in 6th grade because of a perfect SOL score, and I wholly regret that decision. It's been many years of stress for all of us and she now thinks she "isn't good at math" because she couldn't pull As in the advanced classes.

Why are you assuming that she wouldn't have struggled just as much with the higher math if she took it a year later? Also, why are you assuming that she would think she is "good at math" if she can see that a lot of other kids are on a higher math track?

Some kids are the types who didn't really understand pre-algebra and needed more foundational math. But others understood things perfectly, and then struggled with greater abstractions and higher level thinking when reaching algebra II. Waiting a year isn't a guarantee that your kid will sail through higher math classes with no struggles.

Likewise, some kids are the types who feel like they're not good at math if they struggle on the highest track. But other kids feel like they aren't good at math even if they're getting As, simply because they know they aren't on the highest track.

There is no easy answer.

There is an easy answer but nobody likes it: Stop pushing and stressing kids out with layers and layers of tests, and hire qualified teachers to teach them interesting things so that they develop a love for the subject while working at their own pace!

How would that be equitable? The goal today is to ensure all kids get the same outcome so working at their own pace isn't going to happen.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yep. My kid is in APS. Did Intensified Algebra 1 in 7th, Intensified Geometry in 8th, Intensified Algebra II/Trig in 9th, and then we demoted her to regular Pre-calc in 10th (rather than Intensified Pre-calc) and Calc AB in 11th. She's taking AP Stats now -- many of the kids she was on the same track with are now taking Multivariable Calc (and took Calc BC in 11th instead of AB). She was pulled into the higher math classes in 6th grade because of a perfect SOL score, and I wholly regret that decision. It's been many years of stress for all of us and she now thinks she "isn't good at math" because she couldn't pull As in the advanced classes.

Why are you assuming that she wouldn't have struggled just as much with the higher math if she took it a year later? Also, why are you assuming that she would think she is "good at math" if she can see that a lot of other kids are on a higher math track?

Some kids are the types who didn't really understand pre-algebra and needed more foundational math. But others understood things perfectly, and then struggled with greater abstractions and higher level thinking when reaching algebra II. Waiting a year isn't a guarantee that your kid will sail through higher math classes with no struggles.

Likewise, some kids are the types who feel like they're not good at math if they struggle on the highest track. But other kids feel like they aren't good at math even if they're getting As, simply because they know they aren't on the highest track.

There is no easy answer.

There is an easy answer but nobody likes it: Stop pushing and stressing kids out with layers and layers of tests, and hire qualified teachers to teach them interesting things so that they develop a love for the subject while working at their own pace!

How would that be equitable? The goal today is to ensure all kids get the same outcome so working at their own pace isn't going to happen.

Getting to the same outcome is scientifically impossible because every brain is wired to work and learn at its own individual pace. That doesn't mean that teachers cannot try to challenge everyone as best they can, i.e giving everyone an equal opportunity to learn. For example, if student 1 is bored, the teacher would give them a more difficult assignment, while if student 2 needs help the teacher works with them to figure out where they are stuck, etc.

Learning is optimized for everyone because they are working at their own level.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yep. My kid is in APS. Did Intensified Algebra 1 in 7th, Intensified Geometry in 8th, Intensified Algebra II/Trig in 9th, and then we demoted her to regular Pre-calc in 10th (rather than Intensified Pre-calc) and Calc AB in 11th. She's taking AP Stats now -- many of the kids she was on the same track with are now taking Multivariable Calc (and took Calc BC in 11th instead of AB). She was pulled into the higher math classes in 6th grade because of a perfect SOL score, and I wholly regret that decision. It's been many years of stress for all of us and she now thinks she "isn't good at math" because she couldn't pull As in the advanced classes.

Why are you assuming that she wouldn't have struggled just as much with the higher math if she took it a year later? Also, why are you assuming that she would think she is "good at math" if she can see that a lot of other kids are on a higher math track?
Because I saw how much she relaxed and enjoyed her regular "pre-calc" class when she was in 10th grade with almost all juniors, and she did well there. The speed associated with the intensified track was too much for her. Unfortunately, because we moved her out of the Intensified math classes, she felt like a failure. . We don't know how she would have felt if she'd not been pushed 2 years ahead in math, but we do know how she currently feels. And it bugs me.

Some kids are the types who didn't really understand pre-algebra and needed more foundational math. But others understood things perfectly, and then struggled with greater abstractions and higher level thinking when reaching algebra II. Waiting a year isn't a guarantee that your kid will sail through higher math classes with no struggles.

Likewise, some kids are the types who feel like they're not good at math if they struggle on the highest track. But other kids feel like they aren't good at math even if they're getting As, simply because they know they aren't on the highest track.

There is no easy answer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yep. My kid is in APS. Did Intensified Algebra 1 in 7th, Intensified Geometry in 8th, Intensified Algebra II/Trig in 9th, and then we demoted her to regular Pre-calc in 10th (rather than Intensified Pre-calc) and Calc AB in 11th. She's taking AP Stats now -- many of the kids she was on the same track with are now taking Multivariable Calc (and took Calc BC in 11th instead of AB). She was pulled into the higher math classes in 6th grade because of a perfect SOL score, and I wholly regret that decision. It's been many years of stress for all of us and she now thinks she "isn't good at math" because she couldn't pull As in the advanced classes.

Why are you assuming that she wouldn't have struggled just as much with the higher math if she took it a year later? Also, why are you assuming that she would think she is "good at math" if she can see that a lot of other kids are on a higher math track?

Some kids are the types who didn't really understand pre-algebra and needed more foundational math. But others understood things perfectly, and then struggled with greater abstractions and higher level thinking when reaching algebra II. Waiting a year isn't a guarantee that your kid will sail through higher math classes with no struggles.

Likewise, some kids are the types who feel like they're not good at math if they struggle on the highest track. But other kids feel like they aren't good at math even if they're getting As, simply because they know they aren't on the highest track.

There is no easy answer.

There is an easy answer but nobody likes it: Stop pushing and stressing kids out with layers and layers of tests, and hire qualified teachers to teach them interesting things so that they develop a love for the subject while working at their own pace!

How would that be equitable? The goal today is to ensure all kids get the same outcome so working at their own pace isn't going to happen.

Getting to the same outcome is scientifically impossible because every brain is wired to work and learn at its own individual pace. That doesn't mean that teachers cannot try to challenge everyone as best they can, i.e giving everyone an equal opportunity to learn. For example, if student 1 is bored, the teacher would give them a more difficult assignment, while if student 2 needs help the teacher works with them to figure out where they are stuck, etc.

Learning is optimized for everyone because they are working at their own level.

Maybe so but the elite education establishment demands that equity get top priority. Everyone knows it won't work but slowing down the high-fliers by eliminating opportunity is the only thing they can do to reduce the achievement gap.

[Anonymous]

It’s less about how hard the subject is, and more about how organized they are in middle school. If the kid won’t do his homework or study with any basic effort then it stinks to miss out on what for most bright kids should be a straightforward A for the high school transcript.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It’s less about how hard the subject is, and more about how organized they are in middle school. If the kid won’t do his homework or study with any basic effort then it stinks to miss out on what for most bright kids should be a straightforward A for the high school transcript.

Hard disagree. I'm with the poster who said there's a brain development step you cannot predict that helps students process higher level math concepts. The same kind of brain development I firmly think also helps with computer science concepts like recursion. Pushing those too early is just painful and doesn't accomplish much, where as after the brain development step they are easy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s less about how hard the subject is, and more about how organized they are in middle school. If the kid won’t do his homework or study with any basic effort then it stinks to miss out on what for most bright kids should be a straightforward A for the high school transcript.

Hard disagree. I'm with the poster who said there's a brain development step you cannot predict that helps students process higher level math concepts. The same kind of brain development I firmly think also helps with computer science concepts like recursion. Pushing those too early is just painful and doesn't accomplish much, where as after the brain development step they are easy.

True but very oversold when looking at school scale. Some people have it and others are never going to get it. Some 3rd graders have better math sense than 12th graders. People can't handle basic algebra by age 11 likely never will.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Realizing that taking Geometry in MS puts them on a faster math track and 12th grade math may be more than calculus. Looking back, do you wish they had slowed down/less stress?

No it doesn't because they can take Stats or 2-year Calculus

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I recommend not taking algebra in 7th for most kids.

I don't have most kids. Do you?

[Anonymous]

Easy way to tell who fits in acceleration is who can solve Olympiad/MathCounts problems and is willing to study them

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s less about how hard the subject is, and more about how organized they are in middle school. If the kid won’t do his homework or study with any basic effort then it stinks to miss out on what for most bright kids should be a straightforward A for the high school transcript.

Hard disagree. I'm with the poster who said there's a brain development step you cannot predict that helps students process higher level math concepts. The same kind of brain development I firmly think also helps with computer science concepts like recursion. Pushing those too early is just painful and doesn't accomplish much, where as after the brain development step they are easy.

I don't necessarily disagree with this, but I also don't understand why one would opt to make a child waste a year repeating pre-algebra when they've already mastered it, just in case their brain isn't sufficiently developed for higher level math. Wouldn't it make more sense to advance the child forward, but then slow things down or give them more time with the material when they do hit that roadblock? I guess I'm seeing it this way: If you have a kid who has mastered pre-algebra in 6th and is ready to advance in 7th, these cases seem logical:
A. You put the kid in Algebra in 7th, and the kid sails through all high school math with no issues.
B. You put the kid in Algebra in 7th. The kid does fine until hitting a road block later. You slow the math down and do tutoring, remediation, repeating a year, jumping down to regular, taking calc AB and then BC the next year. In this case, the child spends more time with the material that they are struggling to understand.
C. You make the kid repeat pre-algebra. They do fine with later math, but are behind the kids in group A and at best on the same level as the kids in group B.
D. You make the kid repeat pre-algebra. They still struggle with later math, because they always were doing to do so.

People seem to view acceleration as B vs. C when it's really A or B vs. C or D. I'd pick A or B any day of the week over C or D.

[Anonymous]

There are posts elsewhere on this forum that talk about this but you'll want to search key word "Algebra" or something like that. I had posted about my daughter taking Algebra in 7th because I had the same concerns that you are sharing in your original post. I wasn't really sure I wanted her in IB Math as a sophomore. If you can find those posts, there were some people who responded who had insight as parents of older kids who did or did not take Algebra as a 7th grader and how it impacted them overall.

FWIW - I did end up letting my daughter take Honors Algebra in 7th because it was a goal of hers, she achieved it by meeting the score cutoffs to get in, and she wanted to do it. If she had said "no way" we'd have stuck with M7H. I am hoping this motivation on her part helps as she progresses into those higher level classes. Plus, she's just "good" at math. She gets it. But we'll see how that goes when she gets to the IB classes.

[Anonymous]

You really need to know your kid well. Aside from being honest about their math skills, consider—
Do they have a lot of grit? (Good)
Do they get frustrated easily? (Bad)
Does getting a bad grade upset then? (Bad)
Is their math journey theirs and theirs alone? (Good)
Or, is a parent the one pushing them? (Bad)

If a kid is independent, loves math, and has a lot of grit & resilience then they’re a good candidate.