5th Grade Departmentalization

[Anonymous]

Fifth grade is elementary school. That’s not how it’s done.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Fifth grade is elementary school. That’s not how it’s done.

Many (most?) elementary schools do departmentalize for fifth grade.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So what’s the schedule with 3 teachers? C

One teaches math, the other reading/writing, the other ss/sci/health. Not difficult.

Reading/writing is a really long daily block, math is a long, but slightly shorter block, and there’s barely any time spent on social studies and science in fifth grade. You’re really oversimplifying. Probably with 3 teachers, during the reading/writing block, depending on how many kids are struggling and how many are above grade level, they’d either have one teacher teach the kids who are struggling and the other two teacher those who are on or above grade level or they’d have one teach those who are struggling and those who are one grade level, while the other two teach those who are above grade level. Then during the math block, one or two teachers would teach grade level math while the others teach compacted math. Each teacher would probably teach social studies, science and health to their own home room.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My child already switches classes for math in third. Is this how all schools in MCPS do it?

Many schools do, but not all schools. It is up to the principal.

To expand upon this, different schools have different needs. The number of students in a grade, student academic needs, and staffing allocation decisions within the school can lead to departmentalization making sense in one school, but not so much in another.

Elementary SDT here… staffing allocations have nothing to do with it. If we have allocations for 4 teachers, we don’t need additional teachers for departmentalization. There would be the same number of students. It just requires scheduling. It should absolutely be uniform across the county.

I disagree. As others have pointed out different schools/different grades/different years have different needs so one school one year might have a two full classes of kids in compacted math and another school might have three kids in compacted math. An extreme example is if it's a school with only two classes per grade you can't allocate one teacher for a compacted math class if that means the other class will be over capacity. I think it makes sense the county gives schools this flexibility.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So what’s the schedule with 3 teachers? C

One teaches math, the other reading/writing, the other ss/sci/health. Not difficult.

Except that the instructional time blocks are different. ELA block is 90 minutes, math is an hour, science/ social studies is 30 minutes. I think health is usually taught in PE(?)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My child already switches classes for math in third. Is this how all schools in MCPS do it?

Many schools do, but not all schools. It is up to the principal.

To expand upon this, different schools have different needs. The number of students in a grade, student academic needs, and staffing allocation decisions within the school can lead to departmentalization making sense in one school, but not so much in another.

Elementary SDT here… staffing allocations have nothing to do with it. If we have allocations for 4 teachers, we don’t need additional teachers for departmentalization. There would be the same number of students. It just requires scheduling. It should absolutely be uniform across the county.

I disagree. As others have pointed out different schools/different grades/different years have different needs so one school one year might have a two full classes of kids in compacted math and another school might have three kids in compacted math. An extreme example is if it's a school with only two classes per grade you can't allocate one teacher for a compacted math class if that means the other class will be over capacity. I think it makes sense the county gives schools this flexibility.

How does compacted math work then if only a few kids qualify? Who teaches the class?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My child already switches classes for math in third. Is this how all schools in MCPS do it?

Many schools do, but not all schools. It is up to the principal.

To expand upon this, different schools have different needs. The number of students in a grade, student academic needs, and staffing allocation decisions within the school can lead to departmentalization making sense in one school, but not so much in another.

Elementary SDT here… staffing allocations have nothing to do with it. If we have allocations for 4 teachers, we don’t need additional teachers for departmentalization. There would be the same number of students. It just requires scheduling. It should absolutely be uniform across the county.

I disagree. As others have pointed out different schools/different grades/different years have different needs so one school one year might have a two full classes of kids in compacted math and another school might have three kids in compacted math. An extreme example is if it's a school with only two classes per grade you can't allocate one teacher for a compacted math class if that means the other class will be over capacity. I think it makes sense the county gives schools this flexibility.

How does compacted math work then if only a few kids qualify? Who teaches the class?

A Focus teacher can teach compacted math. They do it all… “other duties as assigned.”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Fifth grade is elementary school. That’s not how it’s done.

Love when people who have no idea what they are talking about chime in as if they are an authority on the matter. The majority of fifth grade mcps elementary schools are departmentalized. Educate yourself first, then comment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Because they don't have the staff.

It doesn’t change staffing numbers at all, but okay.

What an ignorant comment. Of course it does! It also assumes existing staff isn’t already allocated which I can assure you they are.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Because they don't have the staff.

It doesn’t change staffing numbers at all, but okay.

What an ignorant comment. Of course it does! It also assumes existing staff isn’t already allocated which I can assure you they are.

AP here… how was that an ignorant comment? It does not change staffing numbers. It might affect hiring if someone is being asked to teach science and they have no interest in doing that all day, but it absolutely does not affect the numbers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So what’s the schedule with 3 teachers? C

One teaches math, the other reading/writing, the other ss/sci/health. Not difficult.

Reading/writing is a really long daily block, math is a long, but slightly shorter block, and there’s barely any time spent on social studies and science in fifth grade. You’re really oversimplifying. Probably with 3 teachers, during the reading/writing block, depending on how many kids are struggling and how many are above grade level, they’d either have one teacher teach the kids who are struggling and the other two teacher those who are on or above grade level or they’d have one teach those who are struggling and those who are one grade level, while the other two teach those who are above grade level. Then during the math block, one or two teachers would teach grade level math while the others teach compacted math. Each teacher would probably teach social studies, science and health to their own home room.

This kind of departmentalization also doesn't work very well if you want to see kids regrouped by ability, and a lot of people seem to be advocating for that on other threads. Unless you assume everyone who needs higher math also needs higher reading and vice versa, or unless you enough teachers to have one higher math and one higher reading at the same time.

You need two teachers teaching the same subject at the same time to regroup by ability and not have a group that stays together most of the day getting the "higher" classes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So what’s the schedule with 3 teachers? C

One teaches math, the other reading/writing, the other ss/sci/health. Not difficult.

Reading/writing is a really long daily block, math is a long, but slightly shorter block, and there’s barely any time spent on social studies and science in fifth grade. You’re really oversimplifying. Probably with 3 teachers, during the reading/writing block, depending on how many kids are struggling and how many are above grade level, they’d either have one teacher teach the kids who are struggling and the other two teacher those who are on or above grade level or they’d have one teach those who are struggling and those who are one grade level, while the other two teach those who are above grade level. Then during the math block, one or two teachers would teach grade level math while the others teach compacted math. Each teacher would probably teach social studies, science and health to their own home room.

This kind of departmentalization also doesn't work very well if you want to see kids regrouped by ability, and a lot of people seem to be advocating for that on other threads. Unless you assume everyone who needs higher math also needs higher reading and vice versa, or unless you enough teachers to have one higher math and one higher reading at the same time.

You need two teachers teaching the same subject at the same time to regroup by ability and not have a group that stays together most of the day getting the "higher" classes.

It's not that difficult at all actually. 90 minutes math. 90 minutes reading/writing. 90 minutes ss/sci/health. It actually gives students more time with science and ss as they usually get pushed to the side. No one in elementary should want students grouped by ability. Focus teachers teach ELC/compacted math but otherwise, tracking is not best practice.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So what’s the schedule with 3 teachers? C

One teaches math, the other reading/writing, the other ss/sci/health. Not difficult.

Reading/writing is a really long daily block, math is a long, but slightly shorter block, and there’s barely any time spent on social studies and science in fifth grade. You’re really oversimplifying. Probably with 3 teachers, during the reading/writing block, depending on how many kids are struggling and how many are above grade level, they’d either have one teacher teach the kids who are struggling and the other two teacher those who are on or above grade level or they’d have one teach those who are struggling and those who are one grade level, while the other two teach those who are above grade level. Then during the math block, one or two teachers would teach grade level math while the others teach compacted math. Each teacher would probably teach social studies, science and health to their own home room.

This kind of departmentalization also doesn't work very well if you want to see kids regrouped by ability, and a lot of people seem to be advocating for that on other threads. Unless you assume everyone who needs higher math also needs higher reading and vice versa, or unless you enough teachers to have one higher math and one higher reading at the same time.

You need two teachers teaching the same subject at the same time to regroup by ability and not have a group that stays together most of the day getting the "higher" classes.

It's not that difficult at all actually. 90 minutes math. 90 minutes reading/writing. 90 minutes ss/sci/health. It actually gives students more time with science and ss as they usually get pushed to the side. No one in elementary should want students grouped by ability. Focus teachers teach ELC/compacted math but otherwise, tracking is not best practice.

You think schools have 90 minute for science/social studies? And that there are just extra “focus” teachers floating around ready to help with compacted and ELC? This is why non-teachers should not try to come up with educational policies.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So what’s the schedule with 3 teachers? C

One teaches math, the other reading/writing, the other ss/sci/health. Not difficult.

Reading/writing is a really long daily block, math is a long, but slightly shorter block, and there’s barely any time spent on social studies and science in fifth grade. You’re really oversimplifying. Probably with 3 teachers, during the reading/writing block, depending on how many kids are struggling and how many are above grade level, they’d either have one teacher teach the kids who are struggling and the other two teacher those who are on or above grade level or they’d have one teach those who are struggling and those who are one grade level, while the other two teach those who are above grade level. Then during the math block, one or two teachers would teach grade level math while the others teach compacted math. Each teacher would probably teach social studies, science and health to their own home room.

This kind of departmentalization also doesn't work very well if you want to see kids regrouped by ability, and a lot of people seem to be advocating for that on other threads. Unless you assume everyone who needs higher math also needs higher reading and vice versa, or unless you enough teachers to have one higher math and one higher reading at the same time.

You need two teachers teaching the same subject at the same time to regroup by ability and not have a group that stays together most of the day getting the "higher" classes.

It's not that difficult at all actually. 90 minutes math. 90 minutes reading/writing. 90 minutes ss/sci/health. It actually gives students more time with science and ss as they usually get pushed to the side. No one in elementary should want students grouped by ability. Focus teachers teach ELC/compacted math but otherwise, tracking is not best practice.

You think schools have 90 minute for science/social studies? And that there are just extra “focus” teachers floating around ready to help with compacted and ELC? This is why non-teachers should not try to come up with educational policies.

When my kids were in fifth grade 4 years ago, in addition to reading, writing, math, science, social studies, and family life, students also had weekly specials: PE, art, music, chorus. Students who were in band or orchestra also had instruction once a week. Obviously, there will be lunch and recess every day. In order to pack it all in, they didn’t have math instruction on days they had chorus, so they had long blocks for math the other 4 days a week. Science and social studies instruction were alternated during the same block and only took place 1-2 a week. It was shocking how little science instruction there was, given that fifth graders take the MISA.

Anyone who acts like this is easy and you just make all the different blocks the same length of time doesn’t know how things actually work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So what’s the schedule with 3 teachers? C

One teaches math, the other reading/writing, the other ss/sci/health. Not difficult.

Reading/writing is a really long daily block, math is a long, but slightly shorter block, and there’s barely any time spent on social studies and science in fifth grade. You’re really oversimplifying. Probably with 3 teachers, during the reading/writing block, depending on how many kids are struggling and how many are above grade level, they’d either have one teacher teach the kids who are struggling and the other two teacher those who are on or above grade level or they’d have one teach those who are struggling and those who are one grade level, while the other two teach those who are above grade level. Then during the math block, one or two teachers would teach grade level math while the others teach compacted math. Each teacher would probably teach social studies, science and health to their own home room.

This kind of departmentalization also doesn't work very well if you want to see kids regrouped by ability, and a lot of people seem to be advocating for that on other threads. Unless you assume everyone who needs higher math also needs higher reading and vice versa, or unless you enough teachers to have one higher math and one higher reading at the same time.

You need two teachers teaching the same subject at the same time to regroup by ability and not have a group that stays together most of the day getting the "higher" classes.

It's not that difficult at all actually. 90 minutes math. 90 minutes reading/writing. 90 minutes ss/sci/health. It actually gives students more time with science and ss as they usually get pushed to the side. No one in elementary should want students grouped by ability. Focus teachers teach ELC/compacted math but otherwise, tracking is not best practice.

You think schools have 90 minute for science/social studies? And that there are just extra “focus” teachers floating around ready to help with compacted and ELC? This is why non-teachers should not try to come up with educational policies.

When my kids were in fifth grade 4 years ago, in addition to reading, writing, math, science, social studies, and family life, students also had weekly specials: PE, art, music, chorus. Students who were in band or orchestra also had instruction once a week. Obviously, there will be lunch and recess every day. In order to pack it all in, they didn’t have math instruction on days they had chorus, so they had long blocks for math the other 4 days a week. Science and social studies instruction were alternated during the same block and only took place 1-2 a week. It was shocking how little science instruction there was, given that fifth graders take the MISA.

Anyone who acts like this is easy and you just make all the different blocks the same length of time doesn’t know how things actually work.

It is absolutely shocking how little instruction is spent on Science and Social Studies, and it is evident in the MISA. In my opinion the ELA and Math blocks are too long at the expense of science and social studies. Especially considering Science and Social Studies should both include math and ELA.