3/2 Programs?

[Anonymous]

Carlton has a 3-2 program with top schools in the country (can't remember specifics, but they are usually Caltech, Columbia, and WashU). Carlton website states approximately 50 entering students show interest in this program. Out of that group, approximately 2-3 students make it to the engineering schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:WTF Columbia is backdoor factory

Even from Carlton, they mostly don't make it. And the 2-3 students who make it per year are spread over several engineering schools. I doubt anyone who gets in through the backdoor to Caltech, MIT, Or Columbia, can survive.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:WTF Columbia is backdoor factory

Even from Carlton, they mostly don't make it. And the 2-3 students who make it per year are spread over several engineering schools. I doubt anyone who gets in through the backdoor to Caltech, MIT, Or Columbia, can survive.

The thing is, it's not worth it. Engineering isn't that prestige driven. If you get a great GPA in engineering at RPI or Case Western or VT or anywhere respected, you have tons and tons of options. No one is going to be more impressed that you did two years at Columbia (especially if your liberal arts program under prepares you and you take a hit to your GPA). Engineers don't care.

Grad schools would be far far more impressed to see that you did 3+ years of undergrad research at RPI/Case/etc and published, over a degree from Columbia. They'd be also more impressed by you being on a winning engineering team, writing an undergrad thesis, taking a bunch of graduate level engineering classes as an undergrad, doing a good co-op, or TAing an advance engineering or math class. They want to see a good GPA and experience doing engineering. They don't care what school.

The only people who think 3-2 programs are a good idea are those with liberal arts degrees who don't understand engineering.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:WTF Columbia is backdoor factory

Even from Carlton, they mostly don't make it. And the 2-3 students who make it per year are spread over several engineering schools. I doubt anyone who gets in through the backdoor to Caltech, MIT, Or Columbia, can survive.

Keep in mind, to do the 3-2 program you have to finish a hard STEM undergraduate degree in 3 years. I’m sure that’s easier at some schools than others but I don’t think it would be “easy” anywhere.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My niece (who does not have parents to advise her, so I've been her college support), entered a 3-2 program this year as a Freshman. Turned down a full-ride at a few strong engineering programs for the dangling carrot of Columbia Engineering guaranteed admit. She is at a SLAC that I won't name; they lied to us about guaranteed admissions to Columbia. I was there in the office of one of the STEM professors, who told us that as long as she maintained a certain GPA, she'd be admitted to Columbia.

Now she is at the SLAC and finds out there are at least 50 other kids competing for the 4-5 slots that will be guaranteed to Columbia in year 4. She is stifled by the SLAC - way too small, classes not challenging, limited clubs and internship opportunities. She has applied to transfer out for next year. I had advised her strongly to take one of the engineering schools, but she said she wanted the small school experience, and to be able to study physics/math, then engineering. The only good thing is that she has a full ride to the ridiculously overpriced SLAC so we didn't have to pay for it. Hopefully she gets re-accepted as a transfer to one of the engineering programs that she turned down.

Lesson learned - even with our due diligence, the 3-2 was totally not worth it. As other PPs have said, if student is interested in engineering, they should go directly into an engineering program. I hadn't ever heard of a 3-2 program before my niece told me about them, but now I believe they are a way for the SLACs to attract strong STEM and engineering students that they otherwise wouldn't be able to attract. I would never recommend one.

If the classes aren't challenging, why not do an independent study with a professor?

A place where the classes aren't challenging is often heavily reliant on adjuncts, who won't have time to do an independent study. And the full-time faculty are often similarly stressed.

Plus that only solves the problem for one class.

Smal LACs are not heavily reliant on adjuncts, regardless of the difficulty of classes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:They're a terrible idea. They're disruptive to your college social life, require that you pay for an extra year, reduce your opportunities to participate on engineering teams or do on campus research, make it harder to apply to engineering co-ops or internships, and result in a choppy curriculum that likely has gaps.

If you end up at a LAC and then change your mind and decide to be an engineer, fine. They're probably no worse of a plan than transferring. But no one should choose such a program at the outset.

+1000

I'd argue if you switch your mind to Engineering, unless it's during freshman year (and who at a LA college really does that), pick a major such as Math, data science, physics (or pick a major and strong minor) and get your undergrad degree. Then do your masters in engineering. It's still 5 years, but you have two degrees, and a solid consistent, non-disruptive undergrad experience.

However, I seriously doubt there are many kids who pick a LAC and then decide engineering. If it was at all on the radar, they would be at a university where it was a real option to begin with

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They're a terrible idea. They're disruptive to your college social life, require that you pay for an extra year, reduce your opportunities to participate on engineering teams or do on campus research, make it harder to apply to engineering co-ops or internships, and result in a choppy curriculum that likely has gaps.

If you end up at a LAC and then change your mind and decide to be an engineer, fine. They're probably no worse of a plan than transferring. But no one should choose such a program at the outset.

+1000

I'd argue if you switch your mind to Engineering, unless it's during freshman year (and who at a LA college really does that), pick a major such as Math, data science, physics (or pick a major and strong minor) and get your undergrad degree. Then do your masters in engineering. It's still 5 years, but you have two degrees, and a solid consistent, non-disruptive undergrad experience.

However, I seriously doubt there are many kids who pick a LAC and then decide engineering. If it was at all on the radar, they would be at a university where it was a real option to begin with

The real reason students don't "make" it, is who wants to skip their senior year of college to go off and do an engineering major at another school. Students realize they have a lot of options with their current degree--and for most LAC students--kids who are drawn to a diverse number of subjects and like to read/analyze/research/write--engineering would likely be a pretty dull career.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They're a terrible idea. They're disruptive to your college social life, require that you pay for an extra year, reduce your opportunities to participate on engineering teams or do on campus research, make it harder to apply to engineering co-ops or internships, and result in a choppy curriculum that likely has gaps.

If you end up at a LAC and then change your mind and decide to be an engineer, fine. They're probably no worse of a plan than transferring. But no one should choose such a program at the outset.

+1000

I'd argue if you switch your mind to Engineering, unless it's during freshman year (and who at a LA college really does that), pick a major such as Math, data science, physics (or pick a major and strong minor) and get your undergrad degree. Then do your masters in engineering. It's still 5 years, but you have two degrees, and a solid consistent, non-disruptive undergrad experience.

However, I seriously doubt there are many kids who pick a LAC and then decide engineering. If it was at all on the radar, they would be at a university where it was a real option to begin with

The real reason students don't "make" it, is who wants to skip their senior year of college to go off and do an engineering major at another school. Students realize they have a lot of options with their current degree--and for most LAC students--kids who are drawn to a diverse number of subjects and like to read/analyze/research/write--engineering would likely be a pretty dull career.

Engineering majors anywhere including public universities drop out after seeing their gpa plunge below 3.0 or even below 2.0.

[Anonymous]

Many SLACS have a 2-1-1-1 program with Dartmouth.
Any experience with that ?

[Anonymous]

I think the only place it might possibly make sense is when the "2" school is very close to the "3" school so you aren't disrupting your life so much and can still stay engaged with your LAC's community in senior year. The one that comes to mind is Agnes Scott College's dual degrees with Emory (10 minutes away from Agnes Scott) and Georgia Tech (a little farther)
https://www.agnesscott.edu/academicadvising/dual-degree-program.html

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think the only place it might possibly make sense is when the "2" school is very close to the "3" school so you aren't disrupting your life so much and can still stay engaged with your LAC's community in senior year. The one that comes to mind is Agnes Scott College's dual degrees with Emory (10 minutes away from Agnes Scott) and Georgia Tech (a little farther)
https://www.agnesscott.edu/academicadvising/dual-degree-program.html

Nope. Still doesn't make sense.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think the only place it might possibly make sense is when the "2" school is very close to the "3" school so you aren't disrupting your life so much and can still stay engaged with your LAC's community in senior year. The one that comes to mind is Agnes Scott College's dual degrees with Emory (10 minutes away from Agnes Scott) and Georgia Tech (a little farther)
https://www.agnesscott.edu/academicadvising/dual-degree-program.html

As an example, the student enrolls in Bowdoin or Amherst. They spend junior year “abroad” at Dartmouth and then return to their home school for senior year to graduate with a BA or BS from there. Finally they spend a fifth year back at Dartmouth and finish with a BS in engineering.
Thoughts ?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the only place it might possibly make sense is when the "2" school is very close to the "3" school so you aren't disrupting your life so much and can still stay engaged with your LAC's community in senior year. The one that comes to mind is Agnes Scott College's dual degrees with Emory (10 minutes away from Agnes Scott) and Georgia Tech (a little farther)
https://www.agnesscott.edu/academicadvising/dual-degree-program.html

As an example, the student enrolls in Bowdoin or Amherst. They spend junior year “abroad” at Dartmouth and then return to their home school for senior year to graduate with a BA or BS from there. Finally they spend a fifth year back at Dartmouth and finish with a BS in engineering.
Thoughts ?

Totally ridiculous and disruptive.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They're a terrible idea. They're disruptive to your college social life, require that you pay for an extra year, reduce your opportunities to participate on engineering teams or do on campus research, make it harder to apply to engineering co-ops or internships, and result in a choppy curriculum that likely has gaps.

If you end up at a LAC and then change your mind and decide to be an engineer, fine. They're probably no worse of a plan than transferring. But no one should choose such a program at the outset.

+1000

I'd argue if you switch your mind to Engineering, unless it's during freshman year (and who at a LA college really does that), pick a major such as Math, data science, physics (or pick a major and strong minor) and get your undergrad degree. Then do your masters in engineering. It's still 5 years, but you have two degrees, and a solid consistent, non-disruptive undergrad experience.

However, I seriously doubt there are many kids who pick a LAC and then decide engineering. If it was at all on the radar, they would be at a university where it was a real option to begin with

The real reason students don't "make" it, is who wants to skip their senior year of college to go off and do an engineering major at another school. Students realize they have a lot of options with their current degree--and for most LAC students--kids who are drawn to a diverse number of subjects and like to read/analyze/research/write--engineering would likely be a pretty dull career.

Engineering majors anywhere including public universities drop out after seeing their gpa plunge below 3.0 or even below 2.0.

Yes, but the LAC students who are initially interested in the Engineering 3/2 major find out that after keeping up 3 years of their physics or math major at the LAC that they don't really want to go and do 2 years at another school--that they can just finish up in their major and have career options from there. So it's not for the same reason--the vast majority of "initially interested" students don't even start once they are in year 3. Those who really want to go on to engineering realize it might be better to finish out the Math or Physics degree and then do a master's in a specialized area of engineering than to leave their undergrad program early to do 2 more years of undergrad.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think the only place it might possibly make sense is when the "2" school is very close to the "3" school so you aren't disrupting your life so much and can still stay engaged with your LAC's community in senior year. The one that comes to mind is Agnes Scott College's dual degrees with Emory (10 minutes away from Agnes Scott) and Georgia Tech (a little farther)
https://www.agnesscott.edu/academicadvising/dual-degree-program.html

This argument is overrated. In most SLACs, junior year is their study abroad year. Anyone attending a top private college is away anyway. And by the time they all return to campus, it's time to graduate.

The real disadvantage here is engineering is just hard. Even at top SLACs, most students drop out. Only the best of the best survive.