DOJ Honors Program (early lawyers)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here - thanks for all your responses. My niece has read the thread - I told her just to post herself but she is bizarrely paranoid and insisted I do another post (I explained to her that this was not a good look for someone who wants to be a lawyer..but oh well!!!).

Anyway - she isn't interested in doing a clerkship. So doing a clerkship to make herself more attractive to the Honors Program isn't her current plan.

She told me that not everyone for the DOJ Honors program goes straight out of law school - some apply after working a year or two. So if she gets a job offer from her firm after her 2L summer and then, after practicing, is still interested, then she would definitely consider that route.

Her main concern is the 'politics' of doing a 2L summer associate position and then getting a job offer (which the vast majority of 2L summer associates at her firm receive) - but then, applying to the DOJ honors offices she's interested in during her first term in 3L.

Basically - in the event she receives a permanent offer after her 2L summer, she is scared of doing anything that will make the firm lose confidence in her or pull the offer. That's why she is nervous about whether it's appropriate to (potentially) have a permanent offer in hand and then apply to the DOJ honors while hoping to keep the biglaw offer if she doesn't get a position through honors.

And that’s one of the reasons she should do a clerkship.

Unless things have changed since around 2005, you have to accept your offer with a firm fall of your third year in law school and you don’t find out about doj honors until after her clerkship. If she’s clerking, she can typically keep that offer from the law firm open while also applying to doj.

Why doesn’t she want to do a clerkship? That’s a big mistake. It’s a great experience.

The way niece explained it to me is they do their 2L summer and at the end of the summer the firm lets them know whether they will get an offer for after they graduate (I'm a lawyer myself - but i got called more than 15 yrs ago and didn't get into the DOJ, clerkship, etc stuff).

If she wants to apply for the DOJ honors program offices she's interested in, that would be in her first term of 3L. I think they find out late fall/early winter for 3L whether they get a position in the DOJ honors (but obviously it's extremely competitive .. and from what i'm gleaning from this thread the applicants are often more experienced than 3L students).

As far as clerkships go - i don't know all the details - except niece says that type of experience isn't interesting to her. *sigh*.

She attends an extremely high ranked law school (not harvard/yale/stanford - but below that group - a highly regarded school).

The DC firm she is summering with would be regarded in DC as a top one (but not one of the NY firms with a DC satellite). She has her undergraduate at a prestigious (but not-ivy) private uni and has good internships prior to law - for a MOC, a congressional committee, and a USG department where her work was in their 'natsec' area (although she was obviously working as a student).

So from what i'm gleaning, her background given age/experience would be good for the DOJ offices she's interested in - but she would be, by definition, less qualified than those who were applying with clerkships or a year or two of practice under their belt.

Anyway, I'm sure she'll read this - and i will chastise her yet again for not simply asking her questions herself!!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here - thanks for all your responses. My niece has read the thread - I told her just to post herself but she is bizarrely paranoid and insisted I do another post (I explained to her that this was not a good look for someone who wants to be a lawyer..but oh well!!!).

Anyway - she isn't interested in doing a clerkship. So doing a clerkship to make herself more attractive to the Honors Program isn't her current plan.

She told me that not everyone for the DOJ Honors program goes straight out of law school - some apply after working a year or two. So if she gets a job offer from her firm after her 2L summer and then, after practicing, is still interested, then she would definitely consider that route.

Her main concern is the 'politics' of doing a 2L summer associate position and then getting a job offer (which the vast majority of 2L summer associates at her firm receive) - but then, applying to the DOJ honors offices she's interested in during her first term in 3L.

Basically - in the event she receives a permanent offer after her 2L summer, she is scared of doing anything that will make the firm lose confidence in her or pull the offer. That's why she is nervous about whether it's appropriate to (potentially) have a permanent offer in hand and then apply to the DOJ honors while hoping to keep the biglaw offer if she doesn't get a position through honors.

And that’s one of the reasons she should do a clerkship.

Unless things have changed since around 2005, you have to accept your offer with a firm fall of your third year in law school and you don’t find out about doj honors until after her clerkship. If she’s clerking, she can typically keep that offer from the law firm open while also applying to doj.

Why doesn’t she want to do a clerkship? That’s a big mistake. It’s a great experience.

The way niece explained it to me is they do their 2L summer and at the end of the summer the firm lets them know whether they will get an offer for after they graduate (I'm a lawyer myself - but i got called more than 15 yrs ago and didn't get into the DOJ, clerkship, etc stuff).

If she wants to apply for the DOJ honors program offices she's interested in, that would be in her first term of 3L. I think they find out late fall/early winter for 3L whether they get a position in the DOJ honors (but obviously it's extremely competitive .. and from what i'm gleaning from this thread the applicants are often more experienced than 3L students).

As far as clerkships go - i don't know all the details - except niece says that type of experience isn't interesting to her. *sigh*.

She attends an extremely high ranked law school (not harvard/yale/stanford - but below that group - a highly regarded school).

The DC firm she is summering with would be regarded in DC as a top one (but not one of the NY firms with a DC satellite). She has her undergraduate at a prestigious (but not-ivy) private uni and has good internships prior to law - for a MOC, a congressional committee, and a USG department where her work was in their 'natsec' area (although she was obviously working as a student).

So from what i'm gleaning, her background given age/experience would be good for the DOJ offices she's interested in - but she would be, by definition, less qualified than those who were applying with clerkships or a year or two of practice under their belt.

Anyway, I'm sure she'll read this - and i will chastise her yet again for not simply asking her questions herself!!

Senior DOJ attorney here. Just a few notes for your niece’s consideration.

This is something that may have gotten lost in translation, but you generally can’t work for a year or two and then apply to the Honors Program. There are a few exceptions—the biggest being a clerkship, but also certain fellowships and similar programs. Information here: https://www.justice.gov/legal-careers/honors-program-eligibility Working at a firm as a full-time employee after graduation disqualifies you from the Honors Program.

Your niece will need to consider whether a clerkship is right for her, but the vast majority of candidates that our litigating component hires (whether as Honors or laterals) have clerkship experience. I’m not in one of the components identified in your original email, though, so I can’t speak for them.

I think the DOJ Honors Program is fantastic and Honors attorneys gain skills at DOJ more quickly than their firm counterparts, but there are a few benefits to working at a firm for a few years and then applying as a lateral. Of course, the pay is better in the private sector—just don’t get bound by golden handcuffs. And after a few years, as a lateral candidate you can target your application to the specific office where you want to work—and you may have developed a better sense of exactly where you want to work and what you want to do. The key is to try to work in that area (at least a little bit) while in private practice and have some demonstrated public interest work on your resume (such as working on a pro bono case)—those candidates tend to do the best in the lateral hiring process, as they can cite their resume to explain why they want to work at DOJ and are more likely to have the skills and commitment to public service that we are looking for.

Hope this helps—good luck to your niece as she sorts through these issues.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here - thanks for all your responses. My niece has read the thread - I told her just to post herself but she is bizarrely paranoid and insisted I do another post (I explained to her that this was not a good look for someone who wants to be a lawyer..but oh well!!!).

Anyway - she isn't interested in doing a clerkship. So doing a clerkship to make herself more attractive to the Honors Program isn't her current plan.

She told me that not everyone for the DOJ Honors program goes straight out of law school - some apply after working a year or two. So if she gets a job offer from her firm after her 2L summer and then, after practicing, is still interested, then she would definitely consider that route.

Her main concern is the 'politics' of doing a 2L summer associate position and then getting a job offer (which the vast majority of 2L summer associates at her firm receive) - but then, applying to the DOJ honors offices she's interested in during her first term in 3L.

Basically - in the event she receives a permanent offer after her 2L summer, she is scared of doing anything that will make the firm lose confidence in her or pull the offer. That's why she is nervous about whether it's appropriate to (potentially) have a permanent offer in hand and then apply to the DOJ honors while hoping to keep the biglaw offer if she doesn't get a position through honors.

And that’s one of the reasons she should do a clerkship.

Unless things have changed since around 2005, you have to accept your offer with a firm fall of your third year in law school and you don’t find out about doj honors until after her clerkship. If she’s clerking, she can typically keep that offer from the law firm open while also applying to doj.

Why doesn’t she want to do a clerkship? That’s a big mistake. It’s a great experience.

The way niece explained it to me is they do their 2L summer and at the end of the summer the firm lets them know whether they will get an offer for after they graduate (I'm a lawyer myself - but i got called more than 15 yrs ago and didn't get into the DOJ, clerkship, etc stuff).

If she wants to apply for the DOJ honors program offices she's interested in, that would be in her first term of 3L. I think they find out late fall/early winter for 3L whether they get a position in the DOJ honors (but obviously it's extremely competitive .. and from what i'm gleaning from this thread the applicants are often more experienced than 3L students).

As far as clerkships go - i don't know all the details - except niece says that type of experience isn't interesting to her. *sigh*.

She attends an extremely high ranked law school (not harvard/yale/stanford - but below that group - a highly regarded school).

The DC firm she is summering with would be regarded in DC as a top one (but not one of the NY firms with a DC satellite). She has her undergraduate at a prestigious (but not-ivy) private uni and has good internships prior to law - for a MOC, a congressional committee, and a USG department where her work was in their 'natsec' area (although she was obviously working as a student).

So from what i'm gleaning, her background given age/experience would be good for the DOJ offices she's interested in - but she would be, by definition, less qualified than those who were applying with clerkships or a year or two of practice under their belt.

Anyway, I'm sure she'll read this - and i will chastise her yet again for not simply asking her questions herself!!

Senior DOJ attorney here. Just a few notes for your niece’s consideration.

This is something that may have gotten lost in translation, but you generally can’t work for a year or two and then apply to the Honors Program. There are a few exceptions—the biggest being a clerkship, but also certain fellowships and similar programs. Information here: https://www.justice.gov/legal-careers/honors-program-eligibility Working at a firm as a full-time employee after graduation disqualifies you from the Honors Program.

Your niece will need to consider whether a clerkship is right for her, but the vast majority of candidates that our litigating component hires (whether as Honors or laterals) have clerkship experience. I’m not in one of the components identified in your original email, though, so I can’t speak for them.

I think the DOJ Honors Program is fantastic and Honors attorneys gain skills at DOJ more quickly than their firm counterparts, but there are a few benefits to working at a firm for a few years and then applying as a lateral. Of course, the pay is better in the private sector—just don’t get bound by golden handcuffs. And after a few years, as a lateral candidate you can target your application to the specific office where you want to work—and you may have developed a better sense of exactly where you want to work and what you want to do. The key is to try to work in that area (at least a little bit) while in private practice and have some demonstrated public interest work on your resume (such as working on a pro bono case)—those candidates tend to do the best in the lateral hiring process, as they can cite their resume to explain why they want to work at DOJ and are more likely to have the skills and commitment to public service that we are looking for.

Hope this helps—good luck to your niece as she sorts through these issues.

Thanks for this - and I passed the information along.

Niece's reason for not wanting to clerk is that from the clerks she's spoken too she thinks the work sounds boring given her interests...she pointed to the extensive research involved in the job and wasn't sure if it was for her. I explained to her that if she is potentially going to be a junior associate at a large firm, especially someone interested in litigation, she will likely find the role also includes extensive research (and other tasks that she finds similarly tedious). But in any event, that's going to be up to her to decide - and as someone who never clerked I'm not the one to comment on all of that.

In any event - niece ended up talking to a partner at the firm she's going to summer at. This partner isn't involved in hiring and his practice doesn't involve supervising students that often but here is what he said - for anyone else who might be considering this sort of thing..

- Niece should use the summer focussing on her work at the firm, determining whether it is a good fit for her, and assuming it is focussing on securing a job offer (the vast majority of summer students at her firm get an offer - but never a guarantee!)
- If niece decides after the summer she still wants to apply for DOJ honors then the firm will not have a problem with it anymore than they'd have a problem with someone applying for a clerkship. If she applies for DOJ honors (and is unsuccessful) the firm wouldn't yank the offer in the same way they don't yank offers for a student who unsuccessfully applies for a clerkship.

Anyway - don't know whether that is accurate or not but just sharing what she was told.

[Anonymous]

FYI — if niece is referring to appellate clerkships then I’d agree they can be boring/too much research.

But I can’t recommend enough doing a federal district court clerkship. It’s almost never boring and you’ll learn *so much* about how to be a lawyer (and how judges operate) that they never teach you in law school.

Law school is all about “prestige” (sort of like DCUM that way) so there is a lot more focus on appellate clerkships because they are considered more prestigious even though I’d say they are much less interesting and not as helpful as training.

Of course appellate clerkships are helpful as training if you want to be an appellate lawyer, but that’s not many people and even if that’s the case I would still probably recommend doing a district court clerkship first and then an appellate.

— former law clerk on district court and court of appeals

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:FYI — if niece is referring to appellate clerkships then I’d agree they can be boring/too much research.

But I can’t recommend enough doing a federal district court clerkship. It’s almost never boring and you’ll learn *so much* about how to be a lawyer (and how judges operate) that they never teach you in law school.

Law school is all about “prestige” (sort of like DCUM that way) so there is a lot more focus on appellate clerkships because they are considered more prestigious even though I’d say they are much less interesting and not as helpful as training.

Of course appellate clerkships are helpful as training if you want to be an appellate lawyer, but that’s not many people and even if that’s the case I would still probably recommend doing a district court clerkship first and then an appellate.

— former law clerk on district court and court of appeals

Yep. I loved my district court clerkship. I was a strong candidate for an appeals clerkship but I chose to focus on district court. (Of course the true stars often like up district than appeals.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here - thanks for all your responses. My niece has read the thread - I told her just to post herself but she is bizarrely paranoid and insisted I do another post (I explained to her that this was not a good look for someone who wants to be a lawyer..but oh well!!!).

Anyway - she isn't interested in doing a clerkship. So doing a clerkship to make herself more attractive to the Honors Program isn't her current plan.

She told me that not everyone for the DOJ Honors program goes straight out of law school - some apply after working a year or two. So if she gets a job offer from her firm after her 2L summer and then, after practicing, is still interested, then she would definitely consider that route.

Her main concern is the 'politics' of doing a 2L summer associate position and then getting a job offer (which the vast majority of 2L summer associates at her firm receive) - but then, applying to the DOJ honors offices she's interested in during her first term in 3L.

Basically - in the event she receives a permanent offer after her 2L summer, she is scared of doing anything that will make the firm lose confidence in her or pull the offer. That's why she is nervous about whether it's appropriate to (potentially) have a permanent offer in hand and then apply to the DOJ honors while hoping to keep the biglaw offer if she doesn't get a position through honors.

And that’s one of the reasons she should do a clerkship.

Unless things have changed since around 2005, you have to accept your offer with a firm fall of your third year in law school and you don’t find out about doj honors until after her clerkship. If she’s clerking, she can typically keep that offer from the law firm open while also applying to doj.

Why doesn’t she want to do a clerkship? That’s a big mistake. It’s a great experience.

The way niece explained it to me is they do their 2L summer and at the end of the summer the firm lets them know whether they will get an offer for after they graduate (I'm a lawyer myself - but i got called more than 15 yrs ago and didn't get into the DOJ, clerkship, etc stuff).

If she wants to apply for the DOJ honors program offices she's interested in, that would be in her first term of 3L. I think they find out late fall/early winter for 3L whether they get a position in the DOJ honors (but obviously it's extremely competitive .. and from what i'm gleaning from this thread the applicants are often more experienced than 3L students).

As far as clerkships go - i don't know all the details - except niece says that type of experience isn't interesting to her. *sigh*.

She attends an extremely high ranked law school (not harvard/yale/stanford - but below that group - a highly regarded school).

The DC firm she is summering with would be regarded in DC as a top one (but not one of the NY firms with a DC satellite). She has her undergraduate at a prestigious (but not-ivy) private uni and has good internships prior to law - for a MOC, a congressional committee, and a USG department where her work was in their 'natsec' area (although she was obviously working as a student).

So from what i'm gleaning, her background given age/experience would be good for the DOJ offices she's interested in - but she would be, by definition, less qualified than those who were applying with clerkships or a year or two of practice under their belt.

Anyway, I'm sure she'll read this - and i will chastise her yet again for not simply asking her questions herself!!

Let me guess - she goes to Columbia?

This is just extremely depressing yet typical to read: extremely able and privileged law students who are SO caught up in a rigid pathway and “prestige” that they pay zero attention to what they actually want to get out of a career. Cannot deviate from the path at all.

Here is the future I see for your niece: she does well enough at 2L summer, gets offer, does not get DOJ honors (because she does not have a clerkship, and because her risk-adverse, careerist nature is evident in her application materials.) She takes the firm offer. She practices in NYC and becomes increasingly miserable at the nature and quantity of the work. When you meet her for dinner she tells you how miserable she is but that it is “impossible” to leave because of her student loans and “nobody is hiring laterals.”

If she is not actually interested in practicing law in an interesting way, and follows lockstep what “everyone does”, this will be her fate.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here - thanks for all your responses. My niece has read the thread - I told her just to post herself but she is bizarrely paranoid and insisted I do another post (I explained to her that this was not a good look for someone who wants to be a lawyer..but oh well!!!).

Anyway - she isn't interested in doing a clerkship. So doing a clerkship to make herself more attractive to the Honors Program isn't her current plan.

She told me that not everyone for the DOJ Honors program goes straight out of law school - some apply after working a year or two. So if she gets a job offer from her firm after her 2L summer and then, after practicing, is still interested, then she would definitely consider that route.

Her main concern is the 'politics' of doing a 2L summer associate position and then getting a job offer (which the vast majority of 2L summer associates at her firm receive) - but then, applying to the DOJ honors offices she's interested in during her first term in 3L.

Basically - in the event she receives a permanent offer after her 2L summer, she is scared of doing anything that will make the firm lose confidence in her or pull the offer. That's why she is nervous about whether it's appropriate to (potentially) have a permanent offer in hand and then apply to the DOJ honors while hoping to keep the biglaw offer if she doesn't get a position through honors.

And that’s one of the reasons she should do a clerkship.

Unless things have changed since around 2005, you have to accept your offer with a firm fall of your third year in law school and you don’t find out about doj honors until after her clerkship. If she’s clerking, she can typically keep that offer from the law firm open while also applying to doj.

Why doesn’t she want to do a clerkship? That’s a big mistake. It’s a great experience.

The way niece explained it to me is they do their 2L summer and at the end of the summer the firm lets them know whether they will get an offer for after they graduate (I'm a lawyer myself - but i got called more than 15 yrs ago and didn't get into the DOJ, clerkship, etc stuff).

If she wants to apply for the DOJ honors program offices she's interested in, that would be in her first term of 3L. I think they find out late fall/early winter for 3L whether they get a position in the DOJ honors (but obviously it's extremely competitive .. and from what i'm gleaning from this thread the applicants are often more experienced than 3L students).

As far as clerkships go - i don't know all the details - except niece says that type of experience isn't interesting to her. *sigh*.

She attends an extremely high ranked law school (not harvard/yale/stanford - but below that group - a highly regarded school).

The DC firm she is summering with would be regarded in DC as a top one (but not one of the NY firms with a DC satellite). She has her undergraduate at a prestigious (but not-ivy) private uni and has good internships prior to law - for a MOC, a congressional committee, and a USG department where her work was in their 'natsec' area (although she was obviously working as a student).

So from what i'm gleaning, her background given age/experience would be good for the DOJ offices she's interested in - but she would be, by definition, less qualified than those who were applying with clerkships or a year or two of practice under their belt.

Anyway, I'm sure she'll read this - and i will chastise her yet again for not simply asking her questions herself!!

Let me guess - she goes to Columbia?

This is just extremely depressing yet typical to read: extremely able and privileged law students who are SO caught up in a rigid pathway and “prestige” that they pay zero attention to what they actually want to get out of a career. Cannot deviate from the path at all.

Here is the future I see for your niece: she does well enough at 2L summer, gets offer, does not get DOJ honors (because she does not have a clerkship, and because her risk-adverse, careerist nature is evident in her application materials.) She takes the firm offer. She practices in NYC and becomes increasingly miserable at the nature and quantity of the work. When you meet her for dinner she tells you how miserable she is but that it is “impossible” to leave because of her student loans and “nobody is hiring laterals.”

If she is not actually interested in practicing law in an interesting way, and follows lockstep what “everyone does”, this will be her fate.

Niece does not attend Columbia. And she is not working in NYC - she is working for a top notch DC firm (not a firm that is based in NYC with a DC office).

She hopes to do litigation. And is very excited about the firm she is working at - and would be thrilled to get hired back after her summer. It's just that her heart draws her to some of the DOJ Honors offices.

I don't get your post - it doesn't fit my niece. She's happy and enthusiastic about the firm she's summering at. She was just wondering about the politics about applying for DOC Honors during 3L (and I think most of that has been hashed out in this thread - THANK YOU for all of those who have chimed in with constructive advice - I know DCUM can be an ugly board at times but some of the posts here have been extremely valuable to my niece).