Start immersion if unlikely to stick with it? And related lottery question.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Sorry to detour but can PP please speak to potential reasons immersion would inhibit other learning?

I would also add it slows most kids down in learning to read/letter sounds. I think this is obvious, but if a letter sounds different in each language, it’s more challenging to use a sound it out method to spell because you associate the letter with multiple sounds depending on which language you are using. My kid is going through this now and it’s a challenge.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sorry to detour but can PP please speak to potential reasons immersion would inhibit other learning?

Not PP, but an immersion parent. Because preschoolers would be learning the foundational academic skills in a language they don’t already know. If it’s 50/50 immersion, they’ll focus on the learning during the English time and only on Spanish during the Spanish time. If it’s 90/10 and they’re starting from scratch, they’ll be focused on getting to basic comprehension and will miss other instruction. Same into elementary school. If they’re not proficient to fluent already, they’ll have to split their attention between the language and the actual material being taught. Some kids are naturals with languages and it’s NBD, or good students and don’t need a ton of instruction to master the material. But some kids struggle and eventually get frustrated and resistant with the second language.

+1. Immersion parent here too. Some subjects are taught in the language and if kids struggle with the language then they are going to not understand some of the material being taught.

As you get into the upper grades, there is much higher expectations in the language, at least at our charter, and these kids who are behind struggle even more. This is when some families, with kids like this, will pull their kid out of immersion because it’s just too hard.

Also, if your kid is struggling with math or English then that’s a problem and if this was my kid, I would pull him out of immersion too. Kids get 50% less ELA than traditional school and if they can’t master the critical basic crucial subjects such as math and English, I would not add another challenge with language on top of it.

FWIW, I just ended up teaching my kid math and writing at home. Found an awesome math curriculum I like much more than the common core (Beast Academy/AoPS). Kid is six years in to the program and eventually the second language clicked. He’s still behind his peers in the program, but I don’t care. He’s close to fluent! And he’s testing high in math and ELA, but that’s because we work at them a lot at home. I probably won’t have him take the AP class/test in 9th grade with his peers and instead drop back a year, because why not? AP in 10th grade is still grade. Anyway, the point I’m trying to make is that there have been struggles along the way, but I’m still glad we did the program. And to OP, several kids have dropped out along the way for various reasons, so that is no big deal.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It’s a benefit to hear and be exposed to languages at an early age. It makes it easier for them to pick up again later.

I don’t think there is much evidence showing this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Starting immersion for PK and then stopping in a few years is no big deal. Look, PK is a lot more like daycare than elementary school (K, on the other hand, is more like the rest of elementary than PK, by a lot). Would you get your kid a Spanish speaking nanny or send them to an immersion daycare? Then they can do immersion PK and it's fine. You absolutely do not need to commit to it for the rest of their education, and in fact many people who expect to go the distance with it later decide they don't like how immersion programs sometimes inhibit other learning and choose to leave in elementary.

As for where you should lottery, if you are IB for Payne, I'd do

Miner (almost guaranteed)
Appletree (good chance of getting in)
JO Wilson (good chance of getting in)
Lee Montessori East End (good chance of getting in)
Stokes East End French (medium chance, better than for Spanish track)
Stokes East End Spanish (medium chance of getting in)
Two Rivers, both campuses (low chance of getting in but not out of the question, especially off waitlist)
CHMS (almost no chance of getting in)
SWS (literally takes a miracle)

I would not bother to list Maury, Brent, or Ludlow Taylor. You can list Van Ness but it's unlikely and if you are leaning this way, I'd just do Payne. I think ITS is way too far of a commute for you -- do you know where it is? If you are considering it, and are actually okay with that commute, go ahead and add it, but I think that's going to get really old very fast.

OP here, thank you, this is so helpful! We have ITS on the list because we have some friends there who love it, and I like the idea of being able to stay at the school until at least middle school. It's about a 20-minute drive for us, which isn't great, but I suspect we'll end up moving to Brookland in the next few years. I think we are just going to aim for Tyler or Payne--am now trying to figure out if we are actually treated as in-bounds for BOTH schools this year, for purposes of the lottery--with a smattering of hope for an SWS miracle.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Starting immersion for PK and then stopping in a few years is no big deal. Look, PK is a lot more like daycare than elementary school (K, on the other hand, is more like the rest of elementary than PK, by a lot). Would you get your kid a Spanish speaking nanny or send them to an immersion daycare? Then they can do immersion PK and it's fine. You absolutely do not need to commit to it for the rest of their education, and in fact many people who expect to go the distance with it later decide they don't like how immersion programs sometimes inhibit other learning and choose to leave in elementary.

As for where you should lottery, if you are IB for Payne, I'd do

Miner (almost guaranteed)
Appletree (good chance of getting in)
JO Wilson (good chance of getting in)
Lee Montessori East End (good chance of getting in)
Stokes East End French (medium chance, better than for Spanish track)
Stokes East End Spanish (medium chance of getting in)
Two Rivers, both campuses (low chance of getting in but not out of the question, especially off waitlist)
CHMS (almost no chance of getting in)
SWS (literally takes a miracle)

I would not bother to list Maury, Brent, or Ludlow Taylor. You can list Van Ness but it's unlikely and if you are leaning this way, I'd just do Payne. I think ITS is way too far of a commute for you -- do you know where it is? If you are considering it, and are actually okay with that commute, go ahead and add it, but I think that's going to get really old very fast.

OP here, thank you, this is so helpful! We have ITS on the list because we have some friends there who love it, and I like the idea of being able to stay at the school until at least middle school. It's about a 20-minute drive for us, which isn't great, but I suspect we'll end up moving to Brookland in the next few years. I think we are just going to aim for Tyler or Payne--am now trying to figure out if we are actually treated as in-bounds for BOTH schools this year, for purposes of the lottery--with a smattering of hope for an SWS miracle.

You will not get into SWS. Go ahead and list it #1 since you clearly like it -- you have 12 spots and might as well fill them if you like the schools. But I just want to be crystal clear that you will NOT get a spot at SWS. Just expunge this from your mind as even an outside possibility. It will not happen.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Starting immersion for PK and then stopping in a few years is no big deal. Look, PK is a lot more like daycare than elementary school (K, on the other hand, is more like the rest of elementary than PK, by a lot). Would you get your kid a Spanish speaking nanny or send them to an immersion daycare? Then they can do immersion PK and it's fine. You absolutely do not need to commit to it for the rest of their education, and in fact many people who expect to go the distance with it later decide they don't like how immersion programs sometimes inhibit other learning and choose to leave in elementary.

As for where you should lottery, if you are IB for Payne, I'd do

Miner (almost guaranteed)
Appletree (good chance of getting in)
JO Wilson (good chance of getting in)
Lee Montessori East End (good chance of getting in)
Stokes East End French (medium chance, better than for Spanish track)
Stokes East End Spanish (medium chance of getting in)
Two Rivers, both campuses (low chance of getting in but not out of the question, especially off waitlist)
CHMS (almost no chance of getting in)
SWS (literally takes a miracle)

I would not bother to list Maury, Brent, or Ludlow Taylor. You can list Van Ness but it's unlikely and if you are leaning this way, I'd just do Payne. I think ITS is way too far of a commute for you -- do you know where it is? If you are considering it, and are actually okay with that commute, go ahead and add it, but I think that's going to get really old very fast.

OP here, thank you, this is so helpful! We have ITS on the list because we have some friends there who love it, and I like the idea of being able to stay at the school until at least middle school. It's about a 20-minute drive for us, which isn't great, but I suspect we'll end up moving to Brookland in the next few years. I think we are just going to aim for Tyler or Payne--am now trying to figure out if we are actually treated as in-bounds for BOTH schools this year, for purposes of the lottery--with a smattering of hope for an SWS miracle.

You might also add Wheatley in Trinidad if you really want to make sure you get a PK3 spot. Pretty much guaranteed a spot there and the PK program is similar enough to Miner or Appletree in terms quality (meaning perfectly good). I would not send my child there past PK, but DCPS has very high standards for ECE instruction and your kid would be fine there for a couple years while you lottery for something else (or decide to move IB for another school)/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sorry to detour but can PP please speak to potential reasons immersion would inhibit other learning?

Not PP, but an immersion parent. Because preschoolers would be learning the foundational academic skills in a language they don’t already know. If it’s 50/50 immersion, they’ll focus on the learning during the English time and only on Spanish during the Spanish time. If it’s 90/10 and they’re starting from scratch, they’ll be focused on getting to basic comprehension and will miss other instruction. Same into elementary school. If they’re not proficient to fluent already, they’ll have to split their attention between the language and the actual material being taught. Some kids are naturals with languages and it’s NBD, or good students and don’t need a ton of instruction to master the material. But some kids struggle and eventually get frustrated and resistant with the second language.

+1. Immersion parent here too. Some subjects are taught in the language and if kids struggle with the language then they are going to not understand some of the material being taught.

As you get into the upper grades, there is much higher expectations in the language, at least at our charter, and these kids who are behind struggle even more. This is when some families, with kids like this, will pull their kid out of immersion because it’s just too hard.

Also, if your kid is struggling with math or English then that’s a problem and if this was my kid, I would pull him out of immersion too. Kids get 50% less ELA than traditional school and if they can’t master the critical basic crucial subjects such as math and English, I would not add another challenge with language on top of it.

FWIW, I just ended up teaching my kid math and writing at home. Found an awesome math curriculum I like much more than the common core (Beast Academy/AoPS). Kid is six years in to the program and eventually the second language clicked. He’s still behind his peers in the program, but I don’t care. He’s close to fluent! And he’s testing high in math and ELA, but that’s because we work at them a lot at home. I probably won’t have him take the AP class/test in 9th grade with his peers and instead drop back a year, because why not? AP in 10th grade is still grade. Anyway, the point I’m trying to make is that there have been struggles along the way, but I’m still glad we did the program. And to OP, several kids have dropped out along the way for various reasons, so that is no big deal.

That’s great for your child but you are basically homeschooling your child in math and and English after a full day at school. That’s a big commitment for 6 years that realistically most families do not have the time or bandwidth to do this.

It is also kid dependent. Some kids are not going to be cooperative to doing so much outside of school in their free time.

[Anonymous]

your child will not retain much spanish if you do not continue w it. but i think immersion makes sense for ece and youd get all the other benefits of going nearby and meeting neighborhood families at tyler

[Anonymous]

A late reply but for others thinking this, but as the minority-language parent of bilingual kids, I wanted to add one thing to maybe your thought process about the decision that is maybe altruistic?? Only that, if you are not really sure, those of us who have bilingual homes/kids with languages not offered in DCPS so much (eg French, Chinese, have a steep learning curve for our kids and low support for formal (grammar etc) instruction in these languages until high school -- and even as a second language in high school, it doesn't quite match with their dual-language needs as other kids are starting from a different place/level.

While I don't resent anyone's spot or choice to immerse in pre-k/ES school (no need to come for me! I understand the parental desire for it for your kids =D), if it's not something SUPER important to you and/or you don't think you'll continue/it's too far, I know many families who would be grateful for better chances in these very low-success lotteries.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sorry to detour but can PP please speak to potential reasons immersion would inhibit other learning?

Not PP, but an immersion parent. Because preschoolers would be learning the foundational academic skills in a language they don’t already know. If it’s 50/50 immersion, they’ll focus on the learning during the English time and only on Spanish during the Spanish time. If it’s 90/10 and they’re starting from scratch, they’ll be focused on getting to basic comprehension and will miss other instruction. Same into elementary school. If they’re not proficient to fluent already, they’ll have to split their attention between the language and the actual material being taught. Some kids are naturals with languages and it’s NBD, or good students and don’t need a ton of instruction to master the material. But some kids struggle and eventually get frustrated and resistant with the second language.

+1. Immersion parent here too. Some subjects are taught in the language and if kids struggle with the language then they are going to not understand some of the material being taught.

As you get into the upper grades, there is much higher expectations in the language, at least at our charter, and these kids who are behind struggle even more. This is when some families, with kids like this, will pull their kid out of immersion because it’s just too hard.

Also, if your kid is struggling with math or English then that’s a problem and if this was my kid, I would pull him out of immersion too. Kids get 50% less ELA than traditional school and if they can’t master the critical basic crucial subjects such as math and English, I would not add another challenge with language on top of it.

FWIW, I just ended up teaching my kid math and writing at home. Found an awesome math curriculum I like much more than the common core (Beast Academy/AoPS). Kid is six years in to the program and eventually the second language clicked. He’s still behind his peers in the program, but I don’t care. He’s close to fluent! And he’s testing high in math and ELA, but that’s because we work at them a lot at home. I probably won’t have him take the AP class/test in 9th grade with his peers and instead drop back a year, because why not? AP in 10th grade is still grade. Anyway, the point I’m trying to make is that there have been struggles along the way, but I’m still glad we did the program. And to OP, several kids have dropped out along the way for various reasons, so that is no big deal.

That’s great for your child but you are basically homeschooling your child in math and and English after a full day at school. That’s a big commitment for 6 years that realistically most families do not have the time or bandwidth to do this.

It is also kid dependent. Some kids are not going to be cooperative to doing so much outside of school in their free time.

+1 on all of this. We left immersion because of this. We anticipated supplementing the language, but didn't anticipate the amount of supplementing we'd have to do in the basics (reading, writing, math).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Starting immersion for PK and then stopping in a few years is no big deal. Look, PK is a lot more like daycare than elementary school (K, on the other hand, is more like the rest of elementary than PK, by a lot). Would you get your kid a Spanish speaking nanny or send them to an immersion daycare? Then they can do immersion PK and it's fine. You absolutely do not need to commit to it for the rest of their education, and in fact many people who expect to go the distance with it later decide they don't like how immersion programs sometimes inhibit other learning and choose to leave in elementary.

As for where you should lottery, if you are IB for Payne, I'd do

Miner (almost guaranteed)
Appletree (good chance of getting in)
JO Wilson (good chance of getting in)
Lee Montessori East End (good chance of getting in)
Stokes East End French (medium chance, better than for Spanish track)
Stokes East End Spanish (medium chance of getting in)
Two Rivers, both campuses (low chance of getting in but not out of the question, especially off waitlist)
CHMS (almost no chance of getting in)
SWS (literally takes a miracle)

I would not bother to list Maury, Brent, or Ludlow Taylor. You can list Van Ness but it's unlikely and if you are leaning this way, I'd just do Payne. I think ITS is way too far of a commute for you -- do you know where it is? If you are considering it, and are actually okay with that commute, go ahead and add it, but I think that's going to get really old very fast.

OP here, thank you, this is so helpful! We have ITS on the list because we have some friends there who love it, and I like the idea of being able to stay at the school until at least middle school. It's about a 20-minute drive for us, which isn't great, but I suspect we'll end up moving to Brookland in the next few years. I think we are just going to aim for Tyler or Payne--am now trying to figure out if we are actually treated as in-bounds for BOTH schools this year, for purposes of the lottery--with a smattering of hope for an SWS miracle.

You would get stronger academics at Payne than you would at SWS. Your school population would be whiter and possibly wealthier.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:A late reply but for others thinking this, but as the minority-language parent of bilingual kids, I wanted to add one thing to maybe your thought process about the decision that is maybe altruistic?? Only that, if you are not really sure, those of us who have bilingual homes/kids with languages not offered in DCPS so much (eg French, Chinese, have a steep learning curve for our kids and low support for formal (grammar etc) instruction in these languages until high school -- and even as a second language in high school, it doesn't quite match with their dual-language needs as other kids are starting from a different place/level.

While I don't resent anyone's spot or choice to immerse in pre-k/ES school (no need to come for me! I understand the parental desire for it for your kids =D), if it's not something SUPER important to you and/or you don't think you'll continue/it's too far, I know many families who would be grateful for better chances in these very low-success lotteries.

I agree, and also it won’t help your child at all if you’re not going to stick to it.