Middle school magnets - criteria-based

Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Wow, STEM magnet with a 60th percentile score. I can see giving some boost for higher FARM rates, but this seems excessive. 60th national percentile might actually be below average in MCPS.


I'm going to ask a dumb question. If a child is in 60th percentile and another child is in the 92% percentile, aren't' the 2 children at different levels? How does attending the magnet program help either student?


They are, but the theory MCPS is working with here is that the MS magnets aren't just for kids who are already high achievers, but also for those who have the potential to excel and would not have a peer group at their home MS. The eight elementary schools with that low threshold are also *incredibly* high needs. Unlike some of the moderate FARMS schools, there really are very few MS kids in those eight schools. They exist, but these are schools with 90+ percent of kids receiving FARMS. So, there's a good chance that any random kid you pull out of that pool is experiencing real poverty, may be an English Language Learner, and has parents who may not speak English and may not have the resources to push in extensive prep.

So, the MCPS theory is that a kid hitting 60% with those disadvantages might have the same potential as a kid hitting 95% with every advantage in the world.

Of course, it's not a perfect system because it's based on averages. Not every single kid at Arcola is poor, and not every single kid at Bethesda is getting test prep on the weekends, but MCPS is looking at averages.

What I am curious about are three things. First, whether MCPS has any data on the educational impact of FARMS students moving from high FARMS to low FARMS schools? Second, I would like to understand how they consider this scenario: a non-FARMS student in a high FARMs school receiving advantage in selection than a FARMS student in a low FARMS school. Perhaps that is the goal? Third, what is the appropriate level of education to meet the needs of the high performing kids that are not selected?



I think right now they're just letting in more mediocre non-farm students from high farm schools into the programs. It's a penalty for farm students living in non-farm school neighborhood. It would be interesting to see current 6th and 7th grade magnet program MAP profile side by side comparison with all other individual MS MAP profile. I suspect some schools in low farm area may even outperform magnet programs. MCPS need to address the needs for high performing students that are not selected through lottery.


DP but no, they really don’t. High-performing students, especially those from wealthier areas, do not need another leg up. They do not need extra public resources when SO many kids are behind and do need that help. I’m happy for my tax dollars to go towards boosting up the kids who live in poverty - not so much for them to go towards giving already advantaged kids still more advantage.

MCPS’s system is imperfect, but I appreciate what they’re trying to do. I have little sympathy for parents who deliberately sequester themselves in wealthy areas and then whine that their kids aren’t receiving still more enrichment from the *public* school system.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Wow, STEM magnet with a 60th percentile score. I can see giving some boost for higher FARM rates, but this seems excessive. 60th national percentile might actually be below average in MCPS.


I'm going to ask a dumb question. If a child is in 60th percentile and another child is in the 92% percentile, aren't' the 2 children at different levels? How does attending the magnet program help either student?


They are, but the theory MCPS is working with here is that the MS magnets aren't just for kids who are already high achievers, but also for those who have the potential to excel and would not have a peer group at their home MS. The eight elementary schools with that low threshold are also *incredibly* high needs. Unlike some of the moderate FARMS schools, there really are very few MS kids in those eight schools. They exist, but these are schools with 90+ percent of kids receiving FARMS. So, there's a good chance that any random kid you pull out of that pool is experiencing real poverty, may be an English Language Learner, and has parents who may not speak English and may not have the resources to push in extensive prep.

So, the MCPS theory is that a kid hitting 60% with those disadvantages might have the same potential as a kid hitting 95% with every advantage in the world.

Of course, it's not a perfect system because it's based on averages. Not every single kid at Arcola is poor, and not every single kid at Bethesda is getting test prep on the weekends, but MCPS is looking at averages.

What I am curious about are three things. First, whether MCPS has any data on the educational impact of FARMS students moving from high FARMS to low FARMS schools? Second, I would like to understand how they consider this scenario: a non-FARMS student in a high FARMs school receiving advantage in selection than a FARMS student in a low FARMS school. Perhaps that is the goal? Third, what is the appropriate level of education to meet the needs of the high performing kids that are not selected?



I think right now they're just letting in more mediocre non-farm students from high farm schools into the programs. It's a penalty for farm students living in non-farm school neighborhood. It would be interesting to see current 6th and 7th grade magnet program MAP profile side by side comparison with all other individual MS MAP profile. I suspect some schools in low farm area may even outperform magnet programs. MCPS need to address the needs for high performing students that are not selected through lottery.


DP but no, they really don’t. High-performing students, especially those from wealthier areas, do not need another leg up. They do not need extra public resources when SO many kids are behind and do need that help. I’m happy for my tax dollars to go towards boosting up the kids who live in poverty - not so much for them to go towards giving already advantaged kids still more advantage.

MCPS’s system is imperfect, but I appreciate what they’re trying to do. I have little sympathy for parents who deliberately sequester themselves in wealthy areas and then whine that their kids aren’t receiving still more enrichment from the *public* school system.


I agree but I also think it's important that all children get a quality education. Just because a kid is bright doesn't mean it's okay to ignore them from K to 12.
Anonymous
There are many issues with how MCPS handles gifted education. Part of the issue is that the district has an equity mission that, right now, is being prioritized over all other educational priorities. Putting aside for a moment whether equity should be a higher priority than anything else, they haven’t *defined* equity. Some education experts say equity means giving students what they need, in an unequal way, to achieve equal outcomes. This is silly, because in no world will or should all students have equal outcomes. Even my two children, who are siblings, will have different trajectories in life. Others say equity is giving students what they need, in an unequal way, to help them reach their individual potential. What MCPS appears to be doing is giving needier students what they think they need and finding ways to take resources and advantages away from less needy students in order to make it “appear” that they are narrowing the gap between the haves and the have nots. They also withhold public information and do not evaluate their changes. So they twist all around to try to come up with an algorithm that gets more FARMs kids into magnets, but they don’t publish how many spots were offered, how many were turned down, whether the new lottery system has been successful in matching students to the program, whether students who were in the lottery pool but not offered spots have stagnated as compared to peers who were placed in a magnet, etc.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Wow, STEM magnet with a 60th percentile score. I can see giving some boost for higher FARM rates, but this seems excessive. 60th national percentile might actually be below average in MCPS.


I'm going to ask a dumb question. If a child is in 60th percentile and another child is in the 92% percentile, aren't' the 2 children at different levels? How does attending the magnet program help either student?


They are, but the theory MCPS is working with here is that the MS magnets aren't just for kids who are already high achievers, but also for those who have the potential to excel and would not have a peer group at their home MS. The eight elementary schools with that low threshold are also *incredibly* high needs. Unlike some of the moderate FARMS schools, there really are very few MS kids in those eight schools. They exist, but these are schools with 90+ percent of kids receiving FARMS. So, there's a good chance that any random kid you pull out of that pool is experiencing real poverty, may be an English Language Learner, and has parents who may not speak English and may not have the resources to push in extensive prep.

So, the MCPS theory is that a kid hitting 60% with those disadvantages might have the same potential as a kid hitting 95% with every advantage in the world.

Of course, it's not a perfect system because it's based on averages. Not every single kid at Arcola is poor, and not every single kid at Bethesda is getting test prep on the weekends, but MCPS is looking at averages.

What I am curious about are three things. First, whether MCPS has any data on the educational impact of FARMS students moving from high FARMS to low FARMS schools? Second, I would like to understand how they consider this scenario: a non-FARMS student in a high FARMs school receiving advantage in selection than a FARMS student in a low FARMS school. Perhaps that is the goal? Third, what is the appropriate level of education to meet the needs of the high performing kids that are not selected?



I think right now they're just letting in more mediocre non-farm students from high farm schools into the programs. It's a penalty for farm students living in non-farm school neighborhood. It would be interesting to see current 6th and 7th grade magnet program MAP profile side by side comparison with all other individual MS MAP profile. I suspect some schools in low farm area may even outperform magnet programs. MCPS need to address the needs for high performing students that are not selected through lottery.


DP but no, they really don’t. High-performing students, especially those from wealthier areas, do not need another leg up. They do not need extra public resources when SO many kids are behind and do need that help. I’m happy for my tax dollars to go towards boosting up the kids who live in poverty - not so much for them to go towards giving already advantaged kids still more advantage.

MCPS’s system is imperfect, but I appreciate what they’re trying to do. I have little sympathy for parents who deliberately sequester themselves in wealthy areas and then whine that their kids aren’t receiving still more enrichment from the *public* school system.


We can agree to disagree. I think the public school system is designed to provide a free and appropriate public education to all students. I don’t think it needs to be an either/or, that if they need to give extra resources to needier students that they cannot also meet the needs of gifted learners. It actually isn’t very expensive in terms of dollars to offer accelerated/enriched courses. The 6th graders still need to take English no matter their level. I don’t think it would cost more to have them study books at the appropriate depth rather than re-read at grade level books they read in 4th grade.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:Don't be petty. The high FARM schools are just 8 schools, and I guarantee the kids there are not up against your kids for the magnet spots.


High FARMS kids are absolutely competing against low FARMS kids for spots. If you want to call it a "competition" since it is now a lottery process. They are dumping everyone into a pool (to get into the pool those high farms kids need much lower scores). Though MCPS won't publish their secret sauce, those kids who qualify to be in the pool from high farms schools are going to be "weighted" in the lottery because they likely have no cohort at their receiving MS. The middle school magnet program mission has fundamentally changed since 2016ish. The magnets are there to serve above average kids with no learning cohort. They are not there to serve the "most-gifted" students.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Don't be petty. The high FARM schools are just 8 schools, and I guarantee the kids there are not up against your kids for the magnet spots.


High FARMS kids are absolutely competing against low FARMS kids for spots. If you want to call it a "competition" since it is now a lottery process. They are dumping everyone into a pool (to get into the pool those high farms kids need much lower scores). Though MCPS won't publish their secret sauce, those kids who qualify to be in the pool from high farms schools are going to be "weighted" in the lottery because they likely have no cohort at their receiving MS. The middle school magnet program mission has fundamentally changed since 2016ish. The magnets are there to serve above average kids with no learning cohort. They are not there to serve the "most-gifted" students.


Except they're not dumping everyone into a pool just the top 15%.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Don't be petty. The high FARM schools are just 8 schools, and I guarantee the kids there are not up against your kids for the magnet spots.


High FARMS kids are absolutely competing against low FARMS kids for spots. If you want to call it a "competition" since it is now a lottery process. They are dumping everyone into a pool (to get into the pool those high farms kids need much lower scores). Though MCPS won't publish their secret sauce, those kids who qualify to be in the pool from high farms schools are going to be "weighted" in the lottery because they likely have no cohort at their receiving MS. The middle school magnet program mission has fundamentally changed since 2016ish. The magnets are there to serve above average kids with no learning cohort. They are not there to serve the "most-gifted" students.


which also means they exist to serve the most gifted since they are so far above their peers that they also don't have a cohort at their home school anyway that makes sense to me
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:It seems like the magnets have been watered down, as have the CES programs. It would be better to have enriched courses in English and Science (not just math and social studies) avaialble at all schools, with magnets reserved for the highest-achieving kids.

+1


Currently they have advanced social studies at my local middle school. It’s ridiculous, my child is in the 6 th grade HIGH social studies class and they meet only once a week or sometimes even once every 2 weeks for “enrichment studies.” In theory having enrichment courses at the local school would have been great but of course mcps has to f*** that up to.


Wait at your school the enriched HIGH class only meets weekly? It is supposed to be a cohorted social studies class that meets daily.
Anonymous
What I am curious about are three things. First, whether MCPS has any data on the educational impact of FARMS students moving from high FARMS to low FARMS schools? Second, I would like to understand how they consider this scenario: a non-FARMS student in a high FARMs school receiving advantage in selection than a FARMS student in a low FARMS school. Perhaps that is the goal? Third, what is the appropriate level of education to meet the needs of the high performing kids that are not selected?


With the caveat that I'm not an MCPS employee, but am someone who pays significant attention to these issues for both personal and professional reasons:

1) There is substantial data at the national level for the educational impact of low-income kids moving from high-FARMS to low-FARMS schools. Short answer: they do better, without impacting the education of non-FARMS kids in their new schools. Basically, economically integrated education works for everyone, and the primary barrier to economically integrated schools isn't really school policy - it is housing policy.

2) In that scenario, a non-FARMS student in a high-FARMS school would get an advantage in terms of being admitted to the lottery pool, but they would not get any additional weighting once put into the lottery. While MCPS has been pretty obtuse about the process, it is widely believed that FARMS status does provide a weight above and beyond being put in-pool. This goes to the point about having a peer group, not just being high performing.

Also, if you look at the list from p.1 with a good awareness of the individual schools, you'll note that the eight schools in the highest FARMS category have extremely high FARMS rates, and very little middle class housing in-bounds. The schools in "moderate FARMS" are more mixed.

3) This is where MCPS has just utterly fallen down. Just catastrophically abdicated their responsibilities. They were supposed to roll out advanced classes (AIM for math and HIGH for social studies) at all middle schools AND cohort those classes. They did not. In some cases, they rolled out only one of the classes (either AIM or HIGH). In some cases, they rolled out both but didn't cohort them. Most recently, they've rolled out one (HIGH) but have not cohorted it, while removing AIM entirely.

I try to be pretty even-handed toward MCPS and acknowledge when they are constrained by difficult circumstances, but the way they have handled the MS accelerated classes is absolutely inexcusable. Heads should roll for the botched rollout, the lack of consistency across the district, and the shocking decision to just remove one of the advanced classes.



Anonymous
It's already mid-January. When will the lottery results come out?
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Wow, STEM magnet with a 60th percentile score. I can see giving some boost for higher FARM rates, but this seems excessive. 60th national percentile might actually be below average in MCPS.


I'm going to ask a dumb question. If a child is in 60th percentile and another child is in the 92% percentile, aren't' the 2 children at different levels? How does attending the magnet program help either student?


They are, but the theory MCPS is working with here is that the MS magnets aren't just for kids who are already high achievers, but also for those who have the potential to excel and would not have a peer group at their home MS. The eight elementary schools with that low threshold are also *incredibly* high needs. Unlike some of the moderate FARMS schools, there really are very few MS kids in those eight schools. They exist, but these are schools with 90+ percent of kids receiving FARMS. So, there's a good chance that any random kid you pull out of that pool is experiencing real poverty, may be an English Language Learner, and has parents who may not speak English and may not have the resources to push in extensive prep.

So, the MCPS theory is that a kid hitting 60% with those disadvantages might have the same potential as a kid hitting 95% with every advantage in the world.

Of course, it's not a perfect system because it's based on averages. Not every single kid at Arcola is poor, and not every single kid at Bethesda is getting test prep on the weekends, but MCPS is looking at averages.

What I am curious about are three things. First, whether MCPS has any data on the educational impact of FARMS students moving from high FARMS to low FARMS schools? Second, I would like to understand how they consider this scenario: a non-FARMS student in a high FARMs school receiving advantage in selection than a FARMS student in a low FARMS school. Perhaps that is the goal? Third, what is the appropriate level of education to meet the needs of the high performing kids that are not selected?



I think right now they're just letting in more mediocre non-farm students from high farm schools into the programs. It's a penalty for farm students living in non-farm school neighborhood. It would be interesting to see current 6th and 7th grade magnet program MAP profile side by side comparison with all other individual MS MAP profile. I suspect some schools in low farm area may even outperform magnet programs. MCPS need to address the needs for high performing students that are not selected through lottery.


DP but no, they really don’t. High-performing students, especially those from wealthier areas, do not need another leg up. They do not need extra public resources when SO many kids are behind and do need that help. I’m happy for my tax dollars to go towards boosting up the kids who live in poverty - not so much for them to go towards giving already advantaged kids still more advantage.

MCPS’s system is imperfect, but I appreciate what they’re trying to do. I have little sympathy for parents who deliberately sequester themselves in wealthy areas and then whine that their kids aren’t receiving still more enrichment from the *public* school system.


We can agree to disagree. I think the public school system is designed to provide a free and appropriate public education to all students. I don’t think it needs to be an either/or, that if they need to give extra resources to needier students that they cannot also meet the needs of gifted learners. It actually isn’t very expensive in terms of dollars to offer accelerated/enriched courses. The 6th graders still need to take English no matter their level. I don’t think it would cost more to have them study books at the appropriate depth rather than re-read at grade level books they read in 4th grade.


Are you mcps? You are right in ms it would not cost more but in ms my kids have read two books a year. Not a quality education.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Wow, STEM magnet with a 60th percentile score. I can see giving some boost for higher FARM rates, but this seems excessive. 60th national percentile might actually be below average in MCPS.


I'm going to ask a dumb question. If a child is in 60th percentile and another child is in the 92% percentile, aren't' the 2 children at different levels? How does attending the magnet program help either student?


They are, but the theory MCPS is working with here is that the MS magnets aren't just for kids who are already high achievers, but also for those who have the potential to excel and would not have a peer group at their home MS. The eight elementary schools with that low threshold are also *incredibly* high needs. Unlike some of the moderate FARMS schools, there really are very few MS kids in those eight schools. They exist, but these are schools with 90+ percent of kids receiving FARMS. So, there's a good chance that any random kid you pull out of that pool is experiencing real poverty, may be an English Language Learner, and has parents who may not speak English and may not have the resources to push in extensive prep.

So, the MCPS theory is that a kid hitting 60% with those disadvantages might have the same potential as a kid hitting 95% with every advantage in the world.

Of course, it's not a perfect system because it's based on averages. Not every single kid at Arcola is poor, and not every single kid at Bethesda is getting test prep on the weekends, but MCPS is looking at averages.

What I am curious about are three things. First, whether MCPS has any data on the educational impact of FARMS students moving from high FARMS to low FARMS schools? Second, I would like to understand how they consider this scenario: a non-FARMS student in a high FARMs school receiving advantage in selection than a FARMS student in a low FARMS school. Perhaps that is the goal? Third, what is the appropriate level of education to meet the needs of the high performing kids that are not selected?



I think right now they're just letting in more mediocre non-farm students from high farm schools into the programs. It's a penalty for farm students living in non-farm school neighborhood. It would be interesting to see current 6th and 7th grade magnet program MAP profile side by side comparison with all other individual MS MAP profile. I suspect some schools in low farm area may even outperform magnet programs. MCPS need to address the needs for high performing students that are not selected through lottery.


It's not exactly true. Individually students do get extra consideration for being FARMS in addition to having different cut offs based on SES grouping for their school.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:It's already mid-January. When will the lottery results come out?


Someone on another thread said they would be out on. Jan. 21st. But that didn't come from MCPS, so not sure how much weight to put on it.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
What I am curious about are three things. First, whether MCPS has any data on the educational impact of FARMS students moving from high FARMS to low FARMS schools? Second, I would like to understand how they consider this scenario: a non-FARMS student in a high FARMs school receiving advantage in selection than a FARMS student in a low FARMS school. Perhaps that is the goal? Third, what is the appropriate level of education to meet the needs of the high performing kids that are not selected?


With the caveat that I'm not an MCPS employee, but am someone who pays significant attention to these issues for both personal and professional reasons:

1) There is substantial data at the national level for the educational impact of low-income kids moving from high-FARMS to low-FARMS schools. Short answer: they do better, without impacting the education of non-FARMS kids in their new schools. Basically, economically integrated education works for everyone, and the primary barrier to economically integrated schools isn't really school policy - it is housing policy.

2) In that scenario, a non-FARMS student in a high-FARMS school would get an advantage in terms of being admitted to the lottery pool, but they would not get any additional weighting once put into the lottery. While MCPS has been pretty obtuse about the process, it is widely believed that FARMS status does provide a weight above and beyond being put in-pool. This goes to the point about having a peer group, not just being high performing.

Also, if you look at the list from p.1 with a good awareness of the individual schools, you'll note that the eight schools in the highest FARMS category have extremely high FARMS rates, and very little middle class housing in-bounds. The schools in "moderate FARMS" are more mixed.

3) This is where MCPS has just utterly fallen down. Just catastrophically abdicated their responsibilities. They were supposed to roll out advanced classes (AIM for math and HIGH for social studies) at all middle schools AND cohort those classes. They did not. In some cases, they rolled out only one of the classes (either AIM or HIGH). In some cases, they rolled out both but didn't cohort them. Most recently, they've rolled out one (HIGH) but have not cohorted it, while removing AIM entirely.

I try to be pretty even-handed toward MCPS and acknowledge when they are constrained by difficult circumstances, but the way they have handled the MS accelerated classes is absolutely inexcusable. Heads should roll for the botched rollout, the lack of consistency across the district, and the shocking decision to just remove one of the advanced classes.



Our school offers both AIM and HIGH and both are wonderful. If they could do something to improve English, I'd have 0 complaints.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:There are many issues with how MCPS handles gifted education. Part of the issue is that the district has an equity mission that, right now, is being prioritized over all other educational priorities. Putting aside for a moment whether equity should be a higher priority than anything else, they haven’t *defined* equity. Some education experts say equity means giving students what they need, in an unequal way, to achieve equal outcomes. This is silly, because in no world will or should all students have equal outcomes. Even my two children, who are siblings, will have different trajectories in life. Others say equity is giving students what they need, in an unequal way, to help them reach their individual potential. What MCPS appears to be doing is giving needier students what they think they need and finding ways to take resources and advantages away from less needy students in order to make it “appear” that they are narrowing the gap between the haves and the have nots. They also withhold public information and do not evaluate their changes. So they twist all around to try to come up with an algorithm that gets more FARMs kids into magnets, but they don’t publish how many spots were offered, how many were turned down, whether the new lottery system has been successful in matching students to the program, whether students who were in the lottery pool but not offered spots have stagnated as compared to peers who were placed in a magnet, etc.


As a parent of kids at the MS magnet, I think the lottery process has evolved, and they seem to be improving the selection since its first year. At least, it looks like they've improved on it somewhat.
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