Going to Europe for college?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My dual-citizen kid is looking at Trinity College Dublin. Non-resident tuition is still significantly cheaper than a private university in the US (as well as many of the top publics OOS). Travel costs would obviously be significant, as would living costs in Dublin. We have family in Dublin, as well, so kid would have some support in an emergency.

The big factor in our kid’s mind is travel and ability to come home easily. The DC-Dublin flight isn’t much longer than DC to the west coast, but the whole trip feels more stressful and challenging because of the international factor. We did it recently, and it had an impact on my kid’s feelings about the reality of going to school in Europe. But still seriously considering it (and will almost certainly apply).

NP
There’s a huge housing crunch that I wasn’t aware of! Loved TCD and its many strong programs.

Employment opportunities back in the US might be limited by a TCD degree. I know a TCD grad and I think the school is great, but the reality is that a European degree will have less flexibility than an American one, in many cases.

[Anonymous]

My son is thinking about attending St. Andrews. He needs to show he's ready to live that far away from home but as a PP mentioned, airfare to the UK and travel time is similar to DC-westcoast.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Some differences: I have heard that there is a lot less hand holding. Like kids need to find apartments to live in often (i.e., handle housing and meals on their own). Many classes have one test at the end. That can be nerve-wracking, in terms of knowing how you are doing/having no chance to correct mid-course. In the UK, drinking can be taken to extremes/unhealthy levels.

Last but not least, you may be kissing them goodbye for the rest of their lives. My friend's kid met and fell in love with an EU boy. Now they live together and work over there. Makes for few visits, if close contact in your old age (when you have grandkids) was something you had hoped for.

I know a young man who met an Italian girl at a party here and now lives in
Italy.

[Anonymous]

Quality is same as here, there are great schools, good schools and meh schools

No, they're not (and that's an unhelpfully vague split-the-difference response for a detail-oriented DCUM website, where readers often submit dozens of comments on the perceived differences between "T20" and "T25" schools).

All the ranking surveys of global universities disproportionately over-represent the leading US universities toward the top, and under-represent EU universities. If you look at the Shanghai (ARWU) rankings - am going Chinese to avoid any home-town bias with USNews or London Times, etc -- 17 of the top 25 ranked global universities are in the US. Of the top 100 ARWU global universities, of which the US has 39, (non-EU) UK and Switzerland, and the (EU) Nordics, have proportionate representation, but of the larger EU members, Germany has only 4, France has only four, Italy none, Spain none, etc.

You might say "well, my kid isn't getting into Stanford, so those top rankings are moot." Maybe. But to look at it another way, a ~B student who goes to one of the US schools that's ranked 40th-55th among US universities on this list -- say, schools like CU Boulder or Arizona or Pitt or Ohio State or Indiana (that accept 60-80% of their applicants) -- is still going to a university that's ranked among the top 150 in the whole world. By comparison, if you go to the 50th best university in Germany, you haven't cracked the global top 1000. If you to the 30th best university in France, you haven't cracked the global top 1000. In Italy and Spain, if you don't go to one of their top ten universities, you're not in the top 500 in the world. Those are meaningful distinctions in perceived educational quality, at least to employers and grad schools (if not to PP).

Basically, the (public/non-profit) US university system is the cream of US educational system (as opposed to primary and secondary education), while the shortcomings of EU countries' university systems is an issue of longstanding debate within Europe. One is the global standard, and the other is viewed as a longstanding competitiveness problem. Yes, of course, some people get a superb education at European universities; and there are some excellent European universities/programs; and there are also many low-ranked, less competitive US colleges and universities (usually not the focus of discussion on DCUM) where the educational experience is less than at some European universities. But overall, at a like-for-like level, the U.S. university system is better, and held in higher global regard (at least by people who know these things).

There's a line of EU defensiveness that says "well, our schools don't have fancy facilities like American universities - that's the main difference" -- but actually the global ranking systems are based on academic performance and outcomes, not on carpeting or air-conditioning or other comforts (conversely, to the extent that a bigger budget leads to more modern labs or to more new programs and courses or to smaller classes than would otherwise be the case, that's certainly germane to educational quality). . The pros who try to bring objective standards to evaluating global universities, and advising prospective students on them, assess that the better US universities are generally better than their EU counterparts, and most people who have equal access to both would opt for them. Pointing out the strength of some US institutions relative to their European counterparts doesn't make one a flag-waving nationalist -- in this case, it's simply a widely acknowledged fact.

Would I avoid an EU university? Not at all. But I'd choose carefully. And avoid the lazy "they're just like us" assumption that universities in EU members all have the same academic standards/experience/reputation as comparable-level US counterparts.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Some differences: I have heard that there is a lot less hand holding. Like kids need to find apartments to live in often (i.e., handle housing and meals on their own). Many classes have one test at the end. That can be nerve-wracking, in terms of knowing how you are doing/having no chance to correct mid-course. In the UK, drinking can be taken to extremes/unhealthy levels.

Last but not least, you may be kissing them goodbye for the rest of their lives. My friend's kid met and fell in love with an EU boy. Now they live together and work over there. Makes for few visits, if close contact in your old age (when you have grandkids) was something you had hoped for.

Given where the United States is at this time in history, I'm encouraging my kids to live elsewhere. I would be thrilled if they did that and would visit them/their families, wherever they are, including for weeks or months at a time in a nearby Airbnb.

Got back from Europe last week. A lot of major European countries are having more and more heatwaves due to climate change, and they aren't prepared for it. Stayed at mulitple hotels and was in places like malls or airports where the A/C systems simply couldn't keep up -- they were never sized capacity-wise to assume the heat like they have now.

It's 81 in Stockholm today for example -- only slightly cooler than here, but few dwellings on Stockholm have a/c.

It's about more than who has air conditioning.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My son is thinking about attending St. Andrews. He needs to show he's ready to live that far away from home but as a PP mentioned, airfare to the UK and travel time is similar to DC-westcoast.

No, DC to London is 8. hours to Edinburgh then St Andrews, further. DC to LA is 4.5 hours. Not comparable.

[Anonymous]

OP pick a country and then do your research. I recommend looking at the Netherlands and Germany for the English language taught programs and the free tuition.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Some differences: I have heard that there is a lot less hand holding. Like kids need to find apartments to live in often (i.e., handle housing and meals on their own). Many classes have one test at the end. That can be nerve-wracking, in terms of knowing how you are doing/having no chance to correct mid-course. In the UK, drinking can be taken to extremes/unhealthy levels.

Last but not least, you may be kissing them goodbye for the rest of their lives. My friend's kid met and fell in love with an EU boy. Now they live together and work over there. Makes for few visits, if close contact in your old age (when you have grandkids) was something you had hoped for.

Given where the United States is at this time in history, I'm encouraging my kids to live elsewhere. I would be thrilled if they did that and would visit them/their families, wherever they are, including for weeks or months at a time in a nearby Airbnb.

You say that now, as a middle aged person who is not living on a fixed income or getting Medicare. All if that could change by the time you have grandchildren.

As a 65 year old who just traveled thru Europe…it took a lot more out if me. Also, right wing politics are not something (unfortunately) unique to the US.

[Anonymous]

Friend of mine has a son at the University of Reading. I looked up the cost out of curiosity

For 2022/23, standard fees for international students are:

£19,500 a year for non-laboratory courses and International Foundation Programmes
£23,700 a year for subjects with significant laboratory study or workshop content.

Living costs are an important part of budgeting for your degree; accommodation costs around £137.55–£193.06 per week for a standard to premium en-suite single room in University self-catered accommodation, inclusive of bills. This amounts to around £5,502–£7,722.40 a year for the 2022/23 academic year

£50 a week for food (so £2000 for 40 weeks)

Call that roughly £27,000 to £33,400 which converts to about $32,000 to $40,000.

Not horrible by US standards, but not cheap either.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Friend of mine has a son at the University of Reading. I looked up the cost out of curiosity

For 2022/23, standard fees for international students are:

£19,500 a year for non-laboratory courses and International Foundation Programmes
£23,700 a year for subjects with significant laboratory study or workshop content.

Living costs are an important part of budgeting for your degree; accommodation costs around £137.55–£193.06 per week for a standard to premium en-suite single room in University self-catered accommodation, inclusive of bills. This amounts to around £5,502–£7,722.40 a year for the 2022/23 academic year

£50 a week for food (so £2000 for 40 weeks)

Call that roughly £27,000 to £33,400 which converts to about $32,000 to $40,000.

Not horrible by US standards, but not cheap either.

OP here. Thanks everyone! We would only consider EU countries to take advantage of low costs for EU citizens which kids are so no colleges or universities in the UK. As you point out, if it's going to cost that much, they might as well just go to an in state US university

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Some differences: I have heard that there is a lot less hand holding. Like kids need to find apartments to live in often (i.e., handle housing and meals on their own). Many classes have one test at the end. That can be nerve-wracking, in terms of knowing how you are doing/having no chance to correct mid-course. In the UK, drinking can be taken to extremes/unhealthy levels.

Last but not least, you may be kissing them goodbye for the rest of their lives. My friend's kid met and fell in love with an EU boy. Now they live together and work over there. Makes for few visits, if close contact in your old age (when you have grandkids) was something you had hoped for.

Given where the United States is at this time in history, I'm encouraging my kids to live elsewhere. I would be thrilled if they did that and would visit them/their families, wherever they are, including for weeks or months at a time in a nearby Airbnb.

You say that now, as a middle aged person who is not living on a fixed income or getting Medicare. All if that could change by the time you have grandchildren.

As a 65 year old who just traveled thru Europe…it took a lot more out if me. Also, right wing politics are not something (unfortunately) unique to the US.

I'm 61 and my kids are young adults, and I lived in Europe for years. We will have a good income when we retire in a couple of years and I'm not worried about healthcare coverage including when we travel.

[Anonymous]

We will look into Dutch universities for our DC in couple of years.

- non EU Student tuition fees still much lower than most US colleges
- Netherlands is very easy for English speakers as almost everyone speaks good English
- many English language programs in Netherlands
- relatively low crime rates
- good public transport systems

One obstacle is finding decent accommodation

[Anonymous]

Are you really certain that an EU passport entitled you to resident tuition? I believe it is common in the EU to require that the prospective student have been ordinarily resident in the EU for several years prior to entering university to qualify for that benefit. I'm sure there are many variations and nuances to any residency requirement but it's worth looking into for the particular country or universities you are targeting.

[Anonymous]

No. It’s not that much cheaper and your child would be attending a college that few, if any, have heard of here outside of a few universities.

Just send your child to your state university for a similar cost and without the inconvenience.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We will look into Dutch universities for our DC in couple of years.

- non EU Student tuition fees still much lower than most US colleges
- Netherlands is very easy for English speakers as almost everyone speaks good English
- many English language programs in Netherlands
- relatively low crime rates
- good public transport systems

One obstacle is finding decent accommodation

It will be around the same cost as a state college once you account for room and board.