Ukraine Azov — what is the deal

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PPs have posted a lot of old information about Azov battallion and not much about how Azov‘s founder has done with his attempt to leave Azov battalion and start his own political party (hint - terribly) and what Azov was and is now.

Yes, Azov was founded back in 2014 by some people who had Nazi or far right beliefs, but at that time the Ukrainian army was very small and weak and had to rely on ad hoc militias like Azov which fought amazongly well and held off the Russians from taking Mariupol in 2014. As the UA developed tbe strategy was to regularize Azov into official structures so as to be able to diminish any far right influence. The founder of Azov left to start his own party, which has not been succesful at winning seats in parliament.

Ros Atkins of BBC does a great 10 minute piece with the complete 8 year history on Azov and what its influence is today. It’s an accurate, well-balanced piece.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p0bx9slf/ros-atkins-on-ros-atkins-on

So.. you mean they are "good" nazis?

DP. No, no one is saying that. Their relative prominence and strength has been diminishing as the army was being strengthened over the past years since 2014. But yes, back in March - May 2014 (February 2014 yanukovych ran away with contents of Ukraine’s treasury, russia annexed crimea and invaded donbas, while trying similar scenarios in odesa, Kharkiv, and a few other cities), Volunteer battalions including azov were crucial in fighting russia.

Why were they so crucial? Other Ukrainians weren't as enthusiastic to fight Russia? Just trying to understand why their involvement was so important in 2014. It's pretty clear Putin is taking advantage of this fact and it serves his propaganda

I didn’t write only Azov was crucial. I wrote volunteer battalions ***including*** Azov were crucial. They were crucial because the army was week and unprepared for russian invasion and a lot of reliance was on volunteers. It was not clear if russia at the time would go ahead with a full scale invasion, but it was a possibility then that they would attack from the northern borders. Back then they didn’t, but the army and the international support were nowhere where they are now.

[Anonymous]

In 2014, people had to literally “dress, equip and feed” the army and the volunteer battalions cause they were in such bad shape. From 1991-2014 most Ukrainians were under impression that army is not needed, common thought was “who would attack us”. This all changed in 2014, but it took national effort literally and lots of volunteers both those who volunteered to fight and those who were seeing socks and underwear for army and volunteer battalions, preparing and driving foods to front lines, medical supplies, rehabilitation networks for injured, support for families, and support for internally displaced persons from donbas and crimea.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PPs have posted a lot of old information about Azov battallion and not much about how Azov‘s founder has done with his attempt to leave Azov battalion and start his own political party (hint - terribly) and what Azov was and is now.

Yes, Azov was founded back in 2014 by some people who had Nazi or far right beliefs, but at that time the Ukrainian army was very small and weak and had to rely on ad hoc militias like Azov which fought amazongly well and held off the Russians from taking Mariupol in 2014. As the UA developed tbe strategy was to regularize Azov into official structures so as to be able to diminish any far right influence. The founder of Azov left to start his own party, which has not been succesful at winning seats in parliament.

Ros Atkins of BBC does a great 10 minute piece with the complete 8 year history on Azov and what its influence is today. It’s an accurate, well-balanced piece.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p0bx9slf/ros-atkins-on-ros-atkins-on

So.. you mean they are "good" nazis?

No, that is not at all what I am saying. In 2014, the Ukrainian Army was so weak it had to rely on any and all volunteers (Nazi, far right were a small percentage of all volunteers) to fight the Russians. Since then, their influence has diminished in Ukraine - both militarily and politically. Ukrainian voters have completely rejected Nazi ideology at the ballot box.

People should really listen to the BBC for a full understanding.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p0bx9slf/ros-atkins-on-ros-atkins-on

[Anonymous]

They're nazis...that's the deal.

There is no if's and's or but's...they are nazis.

The Ukraine has a nazi problem, I've posted links here a few times about it.

But since they support the current thing...the sheep will be ok with it as a few PP's seem to indicate.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:They're nazis...that's the deal.

There is no if's and's or but's...they are nazis.

The Ukraine has a nazi problem, I've posted links here a few times about it.

But since they support the current thing...the sheep will be ok with it as a few PP's seem to indicate.

A country which elected a Jewish man as president with something like 75% of the vote does not have a significant nazi problem. There are a handful of nazis in the country, something that is sadly true of many countries.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I saw a documentary by PBS "The battle for Ukraine" that was trying to be unbiased, definitely NOT pro-Russian, but it did have a bit on the far-right movement in Ukraine. One of the boys shown was wearing a face of Stepan Bandera on his tshirt and the commentator mentioned that for some far right Ukrainians Bandera is a national hero. If you google the info on this character even if you know nothing you will find a lot of disturbing info that would make Genghis Khan blush in terms of atrocities they committed during the WW2 when some Ukrainian far right faction joined German nazis and did all the dirty work for them exterminating Poles and Jews in Ukraine. It's a complicated issue and not one sided, there isn't a right way or wrong way to look at it, especially in light of modern politics, other than admit that no country in the world has a perfect history and try to be respectful of those whose opinions may not be the cheerleading involvement of Azov and other nazi groups in the Ukrainian army even if they fight against their country's invader.

LOLWHUT?

Khan was way worse.

In one of the campaigns in the Persia a relative of his got killed. It up the Khan to go on a killing spree and beheaded more than half a million men, women, and children in the city. The bones of the people killed were collected and piled up to show the world that nobody must dare to cross Khan’s paths, or else they’d face severe repercussions.

That was just one...there are books worth of his cruelty.

And if discourse from the left has taught us anything - it's you're guilty by association. So...the Ukraine is full of Nazi's and those who support them support Nazis...those are the new rules.

You can still not support what Russia did nor even like Russians...and still call a spade a spade. Ukraine is a corrupt dictatorship with a Nazi problem. The Russians have a corrupt oligarchy running their country and their military sucks and they stink for invasions (Finland, Chechnya, Ukraine, Afghanistan).

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They're nazis...that's the deal.

There is no if's and's or but's...they are nazis.

The Ukraine has a nazi problem, I've posted links here a few times about it.

But since they support the current thing...the sheep will be ok with it as a few PP's seem to indicate.

A country which elected a Jewish man as president with something like 75% of the vote does not have a significant nazi problem. There are a handful of nazis in the country, something that is sadly true of many countries.

More than that...

We elected a black president...twice...overwhelmingly too. Yet we're still a country steeped in deep systematic racism everywhere and it's so bad brown people all over the world still want to come here for some reason.

In fact...the Ukraine openly accepted the Germans and quite a number joined the SS. In fact the last Nazi the Israeli's hunted down was a Ukrainian SS camp guard:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/may/12/john-demjanjuk-guilty-nazi-war-crimes

So say they don't have a Nazi problem is NPC speak.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They're nazis...that's the deal.

There is no if's and's or but's...they are nazis.

The Ukraine has a nazi problem, I've posted links here a few times about it.

But since they support the current thing...the sheep will be ok with it as a few PP's seem to indicate.

A country which elected a Jewish man as president with something like 75% of the vote does not have a significant nazi problem. There are a handful of nazis in the country, something that is sadly true of many countries.

More than that...

We elected a black president...twice...overwhelmingly too. Yet we're still a country steeped in deep systematic racism everywhere and it's so bad brown people all over the world still want to come here for some reason.

In fact...the Ukraine openly accepted the Germans and quite a number joined the SS. In fact the last Nazi the Israeli's hunted down was a Ukrainian SS camp guard:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/may/12/john-demjanjuk-guilty-nazi-war-crimes

So say they don't have a Nazi problem is NPC speak.

I said that they don't have a "significant" Nazi problem. Lots of countries, including Ukraine, have Nazi problems. The Ukrainian war criminal you reference was an American citizen. So, does the US have a Nazi problem? Exaggerating the influence of Nazis in Ukraine is nothing more than aiding and abetting the Russian aggression toward the country.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They're nazis...that's the deal.

There is no if's and's or but's...they are nazis.

The Ukraine has a nazi problem, I've posted links here a few times about it.

But since they support the current thing...the sheep will be ok with it as a few PP's seem to indicate.

A country which elected a Jewish man as president with something like 75% of the vote does not have a significant nazi problem. There are a handful of nazis in the country, something that is sadly true of many countries.

More than that...

We elected a black president...twice...overwhelmingly too. Yet we're still a country steeped in deep systematic racism everywhere and it's so bad brown people all over the world still want to come here for some reason.

In fact...the Ukraine openly accepted the Germans and quite a number joined the SS. In fact the last Nazi the Israeli's hunted down was a Ukrainian SS camp guard:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/may/12/john-demjanjuk-guilty-nazi-war-crimes

So say they don't have a Nazi problem is NPC speak.

I said that they don't have a "significant" Nazi problem. Lots of countries, including Ukraine, have Nazi problems. The Ukrainian war criminal you reference was an American citizen. So, does the US have a Nazi problem? Exaggerating the influence of Nazis in Ukraine is nothing more than aiding and abetting the Russian aggression toward the country.

Do you not read well? I pretty clearly stated you can criticize one and not be for the other...it's simple. Nice NPC speak.

Yes they do have a significant problem:
1. if a battalion or regiment of soldiers - who are avowed and open nazis - are an OFFICAL part of the military...that's a significant problem. If that happened here you'd be all over it I know that and you know that.

2. Looking at them openly parading around with support is a significant problem
https://www.opindia.com/2022/02/ukraine-dalliance-with-nazi-forces-problem-that-nato-and-usa-do-not-talk-about/

3. The aforementioned Nazi was a Ukraine SS soldier to snuck here and lived a lie...so nice job defending him or shifting blame to the US...wouldn't expect anything less.

4. Ukrainians as a whole hated the Axis occupation. There was, however, a fairly widespread collaboration among Ukrainians in the Holocaust, based on long standing anti-Semitism. There were police units that Ukrainians volunteered for which were involved in the mass murder of Jews. This is troubling now because both Poland and Ukraine, where there was extensive Nazi collaboration, have passed memory laws that aim to ban discussion of that collaboration

5. Just because you criticize one for their faults of being a corrupt dictatorship doesn't mean you automatically support the piece of crap dictatorship that's fighting them. You can...and I know it might be mind-blowing for NPC liberals here but hear me out....you can actually disagree with both of them and decide that getting involved isn't in your best interests.

I personally choose to call a spade a spade. It makes no difference to me and I refuse to be a parrot just spouting off support because it's the "current thing" if it's not right.

If the Ukraine wins, great...that awesome for them and it shows the world the Russia military keeps it's terrible record consistent of invading other countries and maybe they won't do it again...who knows..

If Russia wins...so what? They probably won't but if Europe gets ravaged into war again in the Crimea and Balkan regions what else is new? They do it every 40-60 years so let them have it. We have other issues we can work on.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:If Russia wins...so what? They probably won't but if Europe gets ravaged into war again in the Crimea and Balkan regions what else is new? They do it every 40-60 years so let them have it. We have other issues we can work on.

Do you really believe that Ukrainian Jews would be better off under Russian occupation? If you want to discuss history, consider the history of Jews in Russia.

You are grossly exaggerating the Nazi problem in Ukraine because you at best are indifferent to and at worse in support of the Russian aggression. You are literally spreading Russian talking points. Next you will be talking about biolabs.

Far right parties in Ukraine have less support than similar parties in France. Russian nationalists are far more prominent in that country. If you are interested in the threat presented by Nazis, Ukraine should be far down the list of your priorities.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I saw a documentary by PBS "The battle for Ukraine" that was trying to be unbiased, definitely NOT pro-Russian, but it did have a bit on the far-right movement in Ukraine. One of the boys shown was wearing a face of Stepan Bandera on his tshirt and the commentator mentioned that for some far right Ukrainians Bandera is a national hero. If you google the info on this character even if you know nothing you will find a lot of disturbing info that would make Genghis Khan blush in terms of atrocities they committed during the WW2 when some Ukrainian far right faction joined German nazis and did all the dirty work for them exterminating Poles and Jews in Ukraine. It's a complicated issue and not one sided, there isn't a right way or wrong way to look at it, especially in light of modern politics, other than admit that no country in the world has a perfect history and try to be respectful of those whose opinions may not be the cheerleading involvement of Azov and other nazi groups in the Ukrainian army even if they fight against their country's invader.

LOLWHUT?

Khan was way worse.

In one of the campaigns in the Persia a relative of his got killed. It up the Khan to go on a killing spree and beheaded more than half a million men, women, and children in the city. The bones of the people killed were collected and piled up to show the world that nobody must dare to cross Khan’s paths, or else they’d face severe repercussions.

That was just one...there are books worth of his cruelty.

And if discourse from the left has taught us anything - it's you're guilty by association. So...the Ukraine is full of Nazi's and those who support them support Nazis...those are the new rules.

You can still not support what Russia did nor even like Russians...and still call a spade a spade. Ukraine is a corrupt dictatorship with a Nazi problem. The Russians have a corrupt oligarchy running their country and their military sucks and they stink for invasions (Finland, Chechnya, Ukraine, Afghanistan).

you are a Russian bot. no, Ukraine is not a dictatorship, it is a democracy with a democratically elected president (yes, is weak, there is corruption, particularly the prior regime that was proppsed up by Russia e local oligarcs but the current govrnment was elected exacly to fight tht corruption). is not a country with a nazi problem. there are nazis in Germany, in France, in the UK, and a ton in the US. Russia is a fascist, violent dictatorship. Russia attacked the Ukraine because the Ukraine was growing as a democrary, getting closer to the EU and its standard of living was improving, unlike the one in Russia. Russia just could not accept to have a thriving democracy next door.

you are spreading Russian disinformation and you know it

[Anonymous]

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They're nazis...that's the deal.

There is no if's and's or but's...they are nazis.

The Ukraine has a nazi problem, I've posted links here a few times about it.

But since they support the current thing...the sheep will be ok with it as a few PP's seem to indicate.

A country which elected a Jewish man as president with something like 75% of the vote does not have a significant nazi problem. There are a handful of nazis in the country, something that is sadly true of many countries.

Jeff, that simply isn't true.ook at this topic pre Russian Invasion. Ukraine has a Nazi problem and it's significant.. claiming this can't be so because Zelensky is Jewish is as ridiculous as claiming America doesn't have a significant problem with racism because Obama was elected twice .

Acknowledging the Nazi issue doesn't make people Pro Russia because clearly Putin doesn't care about Nazis as his country has the same problem.

Acknowledging this also doesn't mean Ukraine does not mean Ukraine doesn't need our help now.

However it is something that should be discussed and paid attention to.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If Russia wins...so what? They probably won't but if Europe gets ravaged into war again in the Crimea and Balkan regions what else is new? They do it every 40-60 years so let them have it. We have other issues we can work on.

Do you really believe that Ukrainian Jews would be better off under Russian occupation? If you want to discuss history, consider the history of Jews in Russia.

You are grossly exaggerating the Nazi problem in Ukraine because you at best are indifferent to and at worse in support of the Russian aggression. You are literally spreading Russian talking points. Next you will be talking about biolabs.

Far right parties in Ukraine have less support than similar parties in France. Russian nationalists are far more prominent in that country. If you are interested in the threat presented by Nazis, Ukraine should be far down the list of your priorities.

Care to post the stats for this claim?

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If Russia wins...so what? They probably won't but if Europe gets ravaged into war again in the Crimea and Balkan regions what else is new? They do it every 40-60 years so let them have it. We have other issues we can work on.

Do you really believe that Ukrainian Jews would be better off under Russian occupation? If you want to discuss history, consider the history of Jews in Russia.

You are grossly exaggerating the Nazi problem in Ukraine because you at best are indifferent to and at worse in support of the Russian aggression. You are literally spreading Russian talking points. Next you will be talking about biolabs.

Far right parties in Ukraine have less support than similar parties in France. Russian nationalists are far more prominent in that country. If you are interested in the threat presented by Nazis, Ukraine should be far down the list of your priorities.

Care to post the stats for this claim?

Le Pen has received more than 30% of the vote in France. Far right candidates in Ukraine received less than 2% of the last vote.