Biden wants RTO

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the federal government should have different tiers of GS employees: (1) those who want remote work and are happy doing worker-bee jobs that don’t require building relationships with leadership or taking on meaningful management responsibilities, and which have limited promotion potential; and (2) people who are serious about moving up in the agency and who take on leadership-track positions that require in-person work.

The fact is that relationships matter, and you can’t build them the same way over Teams or through virtual happy hours. If I’m looking to promote someone to handle serious matters that involve conversations with political leadership, sensitive topics, etc., I’m not going to entrust that to someone who refuses to get out of their jammies.

Boomers haven't figured out zoom so they need to be in person to build rapore sad

Are millennials building rapport on zoom? Or do they just not care because they are busy with other things? Because Gen Z wants to be in the office and they are more tech savvy than millennials.

Agree with PP about the remote/in-person dichotomy. I feel like women have been making this trade off of decades. If they have kids, they often mommy track in one way or another, whether it is continuing in paid employment but adjusting their schedule/career-path or whether they take time off to SAH.

So why not let workers have the ability to choose? It is not forever - those who prefer remote can always come back later and vice versa.

Someone else mentioned butt-kissing and not all people who want to be in the office are suck-ups, some just want to have relationships and in-person interactions. If you don’t, fine, but there is nothing wrong (or bad or suck-uppy) about those who do.

It must vary. The gen z staff in my office all moved to other cities and don't plan to move back. They'd quit before RTO.

When the budget cuts hit with the next deal this will be a great cost saving measure, tell everyone to RTO and hope for enough quitting to make your budget work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I trained, mentored, and built lifelong relationships with new employees during the pandemic and I don’t understand the dinosaurs who can’t imagine how this could be possible. It takes a more deliberate effort but losing a commute is worth it.

I find this surprising and not at all my experience. It’s not helpful to call everyone a dinosaur who disagrees with you, but my years of work experience has taught me not to call other people names.

I came to DC just over 20 years ago and quickly made a group of work friends in my office who were about my age. We had lunch together most days, did a lot of fun things together on the weekends, and have kept in touch as we’ve moved around in our careers. One of these work friends introduced me to my spouse years later, many have helped me with job promotions throughout the years and I’ve helped them.

Maybe all of that will happen to the next generation with just the same frequency over teams or zoom. I’m skeptical but I also understand that commutes are inconvenient so maybe people are just willing to sacrifice the opportunity for a lot of personal connections these days. Looking back a couple of decades these connections have been invaluable to me and I’m glad I made a lot of real friends in my first several years at work.

Different poster, but I can tell you that remote works had improved my relationships with individuals in my own community—my neighbors, my kids teacher and coaches, local organizations I can now spend time volunteering with, and my friends that I have time for now that I’m not grinding into DC every day. These relationships were suffering before. Nothing has been lost, it’s just different and in many cases preferable.

This is why hybrid work is the way of the future. All relationships are important and need time in person to maintain, whether it’s with your boss, coworkers, kids teacher, family, or neighbors. People in the extremes are neglecting someone.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I trained, mentored, and built lifelong relationships with new employees during the pandemic and I don’t understand the dinosaurs who can’t imagine how this could be possible. It takes a more deliberate effort but losing a commute is worth it.

I find this surprising and not at all my experience. It’s not helpful to call everyone a dinosaur who disagrees with you, but my years of work experience has taught me not to call other people names.

I came to DC just over 20 years ago and quickly made a group of work friends in my office who were about my age. We had lunch together most days, did a lot of fun things together on the weekends, and have kept in touch as we’ve moved around in our careers. One of these work friends introduced me to my spouse years later, many have helped me with job promotions throughout the years and I’ve helped them.

Maybe all of that will happen to the next generation with just the same frequency over teams or zoom. I’m skeptical but I also understand that commutes are inconvenient so maybe people are just willing to sacrifice the opportunity for a lot of personal connections these days. Looking back a couple of decades these connections have been invaluable to me and I’m glad I made a lot of real friends in my first several years at work.

Different poster, but I can tell you that remote works had improved my relationships with individuals in my own community—my neighbors, my kids teacher and coaches, local organizations I can now spend time volunteering with, and my friends that I have time for now that I’m not grinding into DC every day. These relationships were suffering before. Nothing has been lost, it’s just different and in many cases preferable.

This is why hybrid work is the way of the future. All relationships are important and need time in person to maintain, whether it’s with your boss, coworkers, kids teacher, family, or neighbors. People in the extremes are neglecting someone.

Actually I maintain a relationship with my coworkers and boss remotely just fine. Just like I maintain close friendships and family ties even though I rarely see them in person.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I trained, mentored, and built lifelong relationships with new employees during the pandemic and I don’t understand the dinosaurs who can’t imagine how this could be possible. It takes a more deliberate effort but losing a commute is worth it.

I find this surprising and not at all my experience. It’s not helpful to call everyone a dinosaur who disagrees with you, but my years of work experience has taught me not to call other people names.

I came to DC just over 20 years ago and quickly made a group of work friends in my office who were about my age. We had lunch together most days, did a lot of fun things together on the weekends, and have kept in touch as we’ve moved around in our careers. One of these work friends introduced me to my spouse years later, many have helped me with job promotions throughout the years and I’ve helped them.

Maybe all of that will happen to the next generation with just the same frequency over teams or zoom. I’m skeptical but I also understand that commutes are inconvenient so maybe people are just willing to sacrifice the opportunity for a lot of personal connections these days. Looking back a couple of decades these connections have been invaluable to me and I’m glad I made a lot of real friends in my first several years at work.

Different poster, but I can tell you that remote works had improved my relationships with individuals in my own community—my neighbors, my kids teacher and coaches, local organizations I can now spend time volunteering with, and my friends that I have time for now that I’m not grinding into DC every day. These relationships were suffering before. Nothing has been lost, it’s just different and in many cases preferable.

This is why hybrid work is the way of the future. All relationships are important and need time in person to maintain, whether it’s with your boss, coworkers, kids teacher, family, or neighbors. People in the extremes are neglecting someone.

Actually I maintain a relationship with my coworkers and boss remotely just fine. Just like I maintain close friendships and family ties even though I rarely see them in person.

Do you think your family relationships are exactly the same virtually as they would be if you saw them in person regularly?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I trained, mentored, and built lifelong relationships with new employees during the pandemic and I don’t understand the dinosaurs who can’t imagine how this could be possible. It takes a more deliberate effort but losing a commute is worth it.

I find this surprising and not at all my experience. It’s not helpful to call everyone a dinosaur who disagrees with you, but my years of work experience has taught me not to call other people names.

I came to DC just over 20 years ago and quickly made a group of work friends in my office who were about my age. We had lunch together most days, did a lot of fun things together on the weekends, and have kept in touch as we’ve moved around in our careers. One of these work friends introduced me to my spouse years later, many have helped me with job promotions throughout the years and I’ve helped them.

Maybe all of that will happen to the next generation with just the same frequency over teams or zoom. I’m skeptical but I also understand that commutes are inconvenient so maybe people are just willing to sacrifice the opportunity for a lot of personal connections these days. Looking back a couple of decades these connections have been invaluable to me and I’m glad I made a lot of real friends in my first several years at work.

Different poster, but I can tell you that remote works had improved my relationships with individuals in my own community—my neighbors, my kids teacher and coaches, local organizations I can now spend time volunteering with, and my friends that I have time for now that I’m not grinding into DC every day. These relationships were suffering before. Nothing has been lost, it’s just different and in many cases preferable.

DP. You say “it’s just different,” but it’s not. You can’t equate good work relationships and good community and friend relationships. Your employer wants the focus on work. You may want the focus to be on other relationships, but that’s not what your employer is paying you for. You’re comparing apples and oranges.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I trained, mentored, and built lifelong relationships with new employees during the pandemic and I don’t understand the dinosaurs who can’t imagine how this could be possible. It takes a more deliberate effort but losing a commute is worth it.

You think you did. You did not.

I had a job where I used to travel a lot, work late a lot. But we were huge on mentoring, training, going to conferences. I spent maybe 2,000 hours a year working with my co workers, had around 200 lunches a year with then maybe 60-70 dinners, went on 5-10 business trips, 10-20 happy hours, had maybe 40 mentoring sessions upwards and downwards and 40-60 hours formal training. We all work together on projects. I did that 8 years.

Remote, really? People forget what I described is how 21 year olds started career pre pandemic. Not sitting in mommy’s basement zooming with some broken down boomer on a once a week status call

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I trained, mentored, and built lifelong relationships with new employees during the pandemic and I don’t understand the dinosaurs who can’t imagine how this could be possible. It takes a more deliberate effort but losing a commute is worth it.

I find this surprising and not at all my experience. It’s not helpful to call everyone a dinosaur who disagrees with you, but my years of work experience has taught me not to call other people names.

I came to DC just over 20 years ago and quickly made a group of work friends in my office who were about my age. We had lunch together most days, did a lot of fun things together on the weekends, and have kept in touch as we’ve moved around in our careers. One of these work friends introduced me to my spouse years later, many have helped me with job promotions throughout the years and I’ve helped them.

Maybe all of that will happen to the next generation with just the same frequency over teams or zoom. I’m skeptical but I also understand that commutes are inconvenient so maybe people are just willing to sacrifice the opportunity for a lot of personal connections these days. Looking back a couple of decades these connections have been invaluable to me and I’m glad I made a lot of real friends in my first several years at work.

Different poster, but I can tell you that remote works had improved my relationships with individuals in my own community—my neighbors, my kids teacher and coaches, local organizations I can now spend time volunteering with, and my friends that I have time for now that I’m not grinding into DC every day. These relationships were suffering before. Nothing has been lost, it’s just different and in many cases preferable.

DP. You say “it’s just different,” but it’s not. You can’t equate good work relationships and good community and friend relationships. Your employer wants the focus on work. You may want the focus to be on other relationships, but that’s not what your employer is paying you for. You’re comparing apples and oranges.

My employer is not paying for what you’re talking about. My employer needs to pay me more if it wants to own my personal and family life.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I trained, mentored, and built lifelong relationships with new employees during the pandemic and I don’t understand the dinosaurs who can’t imagine how this could be possible. It takes a more deliberate effort but losing a commute is worth it.

I find this surprising and not at all my experience. It’s not helpful to call everyone a dinosaur who disagrees with you, but my years of work experience has taught me not to call other people names.

I came to DC just over 20 years ago and quickly made a group of work friends in my office who were about my age. We had lunch together most days, did a lot of fun things together on the weekends, and have kept in touch as we’ve moved around in our careers. One of these work friends introduced me to my spouse years later, many have helped me with job promotions throughout the years and I’ve helped them.

Maybe all of that will happen to the next generation with just the same frequency over teams or zoom. I’m skeptical but I also understand that commutes are inconvenient so maybe people are just willing to sacrifice the opportunity for a lot of personal connections these days. Looking back a couple of decades these connections have been invaluable to me and I’m glad I made a lot of real friends in my first several years at work.

Different poster, but I can tell you that remote works had improved my relationships with individuals in my own community—my neighbors, my kids teacher and coaches, local organizations I can now spend time volunteering with, and my friends that I have time for now that I’m not grinding into DC every day. These relationships were suffering before. Nothing has been lost, it’s just different and in many cases preferable.

This is why hybrid work is the way of the future. All relationships are important and need time in person to maintain, whether it’s with your boss, coworkers, kids teacher, family, or neighbors. People in the extremes are neglecting someone.

Actually I maintain a relationship with my coworkers and boss remotely just fine. Just like I maintain close friendships and family ties even though I rarely see them in person.

Do you think your family relationships are exactly the same virtually as they would be if you saw them in person regularly?

In my case they are MUCH better than they would be if I saw them frequently. Most offices and families are quite dysfunctional. Probably related. Good on millennials for prioritizing what matters. They’re going to make great leaders.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I trained, mentored, and built lifelong relationships with new employees during the pandemic and I don’t understand the dinosaurs who can’t imagine how this could be possible. It takes a more deliberate effort but losing a commute is worth it.

I find this surprising and not at all my experience. It’s not helpful to call everyone a dinosaur who disagrees with you, but my years of work experience has taught me not to call other people names.

I came to DC just over 20 years ago and quickly made a group of work friends in my office who were about my age. We had lunch together most days, did a lot of fun things together on the weekends, and have kept in touch as we’ve moved around in our careers. One of these work friends introduced me to my spouse years later, many have helped me with job promotions throughout the years and I’ve helped them.

Maybe all of that will happen to the next generation with just the same frequency over teams or zoom. I’m skeptical but I also understand that commutes are inconvenient so maybe people are just willing to sacrifice the opportunity for a lot of personal connections these days. Looking back a couple of decades these connections have been invaluable to me and I’m glad I made a lot of real friends in my first several years at work.

Different poster, but I can tell you that remote works had improved my relationships with individuals in my own community—my neighbors, my kids teacher and coaches, local organizations I can now spend time volunteering with, and my friends that I have time for now that I’m not grinding into DC every day. These relationships were suffering before. Nothing has been lost, it’s just different and in many cases preferable.

This is why hybrid work is the way of the future. All relationships are important and need time in person to maintain, whether it’s with your boss, coworkers, kids teacher, family, or neighbors. People in the extremes are neglecting someone.

Actually I maintain a relationship with my coworkers and boss remotely just fine. Just like I maintain close friendships and family ties even though I rarely see them in person.

Do you think your family relationships are exactly the same virtually as they would be if you saw them in person regularly?

Well it’s not feasible for them to be in person - that’s the point. There are cosys and benefits, and it is incorrect to claime that it is “impossible” to maintain ties virtually.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I trained, mentored, and built lifelong relationships with new employees during the pandemic and I don’t understand the dinosaurs who can’t imagine how this could be possible. It takes a more deliberate effort but losing a commute is worth it.

I find this surprising and not at all my experience. It’s not helpful to call everyone a dinosaur who disagrees with you, but my years of work experience has taught me not to call other people names.

I came to DC just over 20 years ago and quickly made a group of work friends in my office who were about my age. We had lunch together most days, did a lot of fun things together on the weekends, and have kept in touch as we’ve moved around in our careers. One of these work friends introduced me to my spouse years later, many have helped me with job promotions throughout the years and I’ve helped them.

Maybe all of that will happen to the next generation with just the same frequency over teams or zoom. I’m skeptical but I also understand that commutes are inconvenient so maybe people are just willing to sacrifice the opportunity for a lot of personal connections these days. Looking back a couple of decades these connections have been invaluable to me and I’m glad I made a lot of real friends in my first several years at work.

Different poster, but I can tell you that remote works had improved my relationships with individuals in my own community—my neighbors, my kids teacher and coaches, local organizations I can now spend time volunteering with, and my friends that I have time for now that I’m not grinding into DC every day. These relationships were suffering before. Nothing has been lost, it’s just different and in many cases preferable.

DP. You say “it’s just different,” but it’s not. You can’t equate good work relationships and good community and friend relationships. Your employer wants the focus on work. You may want the focus to be on other relationships, but that’s not what your employer is paying you for. You’re comparing apples and oranges.

lol. I’m sure my employer would like me to work twice as long for half as much money.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I trained, mentored, and built lifelong relationships with new employees during the pandemic and I don’t understand the dinosaurs who can’t imagine how this could be possible. It takes a more deliberate effort but losing a commute is worth it.

You think you did. You did not.

I had a job where I used to travel a lot, work late a lot. But we were huge on mentoring, training, going to conferences. I spent maybe 2,000 hours a year working with my co workers, had around 200 lunches a year with then maybe 60-70 dinners, went on 5-10 business trips, 10-20 happy hours, had maybe 40 mentoring sessions upwards and downwards and 40-60 hours formal training. We all work together on projects. I did that 8 years.

Remote, really? People forget what I described is how 21 year olds started career pre pandemic. Not sitting in mommy’s basement zooming with some broken down boomer on a once a week status call

yikes. I don’t know what kind of profession you are in, but I have never been in a job that requires 200 lunches and 60 dinners and 10 trips a year. You’d have to pay me a LOT more for that. the rest of us are normal people and do just fine with a 1:1 weekly.

[Anonymous]

Good remote work relationships are hindered by FOIA. Everything we say to each other is FOIA'd. They even ask for personal conversations. I guess the answer is more zoom meetings?? It's not the same as in the private sector.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Good remote work relationships are hindered by FOIA. Everything we say to each other is FOIA'd. They even ask for personal conversations. I guess the answer is more zoom meetings?? It's not the same as in the private sector.

Or maybe you shouldn’t be having those conversations. Just do your job and follow the rules.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I trained, mentored, and built lifelong relationships with new employees during the pandemic and I don’t understand the dinosaurs who can’t imagine how this could be possible. It takes a more deliberate effort but losing a commute is worth it.

You think you did. You did not.

I had a job where I used to travel a lot, work late a lot. But we were huge on mentoring, training, going to conferences. I spent maybe 2,000 hours a year working with my co workers, had around 200 lunches a year with then maybe 60-70 dinners, went on 5-10 business trips, 10-20 happy hours, had maybe 40 mentoring sessions upwards and downwards and 40-60 hours formal training. We all work together on projects. I did that 8 years.

Remote, really? People forget what I described is how 21 year olds started career pre pandemic. Not sitting in mommy’s basement zooming with some broken down boomer on a once a week status call

Based on my experience as a woman in the white collar workforce, as well as the experience relayed to me by others....those mentoring sessions, dinners, happy hours etc were not evenly distributed. People tend to mentor and socialize with people like them, and unintentionally exclude others.

One of the appeals of remote work is that it forces mentoring to be pre-planned and structured, and thus that mentoring is far more evenly distributed.

It would be very interesting to see a breakdown by race and by gender of those who prefer remote versus RTO. I sometimes feel like those promoting the many values of in-person collaboration are those who gained and maintained an advantage in that structure, and thus are reluctant to see it go. And I don't think those who support RTO for that reason realize it either. They assume everyone had the same experience and opportunities from in person work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's a bad move. I'm a DOJ attorney, and constantly evaluating my private sector options. If WFH is reduced, I'll go with the money, understanding that I am being paid more and going in at least as often.

Private sector is demanding more and more days in office. Many top firms now want 3-4 days in the office a week. There are firms offering full-time virtual or more flexible hybrid schedules, but increasingly they are offering them to a segregated workforce. So partners and partner-track associates are in office more, but staff attorneys might be virtual. But there's a significant loss in pay associated with that.

Firms are increasingly worried about the impact on by culture and productivity of widespread WFH. Sure, it works in some legal specialties and for some people. But I am hearing more and more partners talking about issues with associates not even coming close to their billable targets, or just a general loss of camaraderie at the firm due to the combination of WFH and a very active lateral market.

All of which is to say, I think you are idealizing private practice because you are mad about having to go into the office. And the feds actually know that private industry is moving more and more back to the office, that's part of why this push is happening.

Um, no. Sure, junior associates have to be in the office. But firms will do what they have to do to attract top talent. And if top talent wants WFH, they will get it.