Israel is free to do whatever it damn wants which seems to be to kill as many Palestinians as possible but in that case Jewish people should stop acting shocked when the rest of the world views Israel as a heartless, cold blooded nation with no soul
This is the most common sense thing I have read about what is going on...and a few years ago it would not all have had to been said, but progressives have distored common sense.
Okay. Two things.
1. It is illogical to say "bad things happen and people get moved all the time" but conclude this with "Israel is here to stay". If things change and people move, they can change for Israel too.
2. "Everyone comes to an accommodation" not by hugs and kisses, but through restoration of rights. There is a reason Jews can reclaim stolen and compensated property in many places in Europe - because people acknowledged that what happened to them was unjust. They weren't told to just get over it. Israel restores pre-1948 property to Jews who can prove ownership. Not to Arabs, mind you. Never to Arabs. You come to an accommodation when the party that wronged you acknowledges the wrong and makes an effort to compensate for the wrong. "Get over it" is not an accommodation.
3. I find it terribly ironic when people parrot the line of "Palestinians were offered their own state on three different occasions!" but you press them for details and turns out they don't know crap about what was actually offered.
DP.
I know exactly what was offered on each occasion and think that the following is inarguably true:
1. The Palestinians will not get a better deal in the future than what they’ve previously been offered.
2. The Palestinian people would be FAR better off today had they accepted any of the previous offers.
By any measure of real world impact, the Palestinian leadership has chosen poorly.
Yes they have.
During decolonization, they were given a very nice state that stretched from the border with Lebanon to the Negev. Hills. Forests, a good coastline on the Mediterranean. Towns like Nazareth and Hebron. Olive groves. But they chose war instead.
In 1993, with the Oslo Accords, they were given all of Gaza and 97 percent of the West Bank. Israel would have compensated the remaining 3 percent with their own lands. All the West Bank settlers would have been long gone by now.
Instead, Palestinians chose intifada.
I don't mean this unkindly, but Palestinians seem to be incapable of having effective leadership. They choose Hamas. They choose Islamic Jihad. They choose the Palestinian Authority, one of the most corrupt parties in the world. Back on the day, the chose the PLO - murdering Olympic athletes, hijacking airplanes, causing a civil war in Lebanon, assassinating Prime Ministers in Jordan, supporting the invasion of Kuwait.
I mean, what is there to say. If they had chosen a Gandhi or a MLK, they would have had a state for a long time now. But they don't. They always choose terrorism, violence, corruption, fanaticism. How do you work with this?
Serious question: How do you keep a straight face pretending that someone like Bibi would have EVER allowed the establishment of a Palestinian state of any kind over the past 27 years? Seriously, how do you do it?
i think Netanyahu and Likud are terrible.
Israelis are genuinely stupid for going with this. There are a lot of extremists in Israel. I mean they murdered Yitzhak Rabin for goodness sake. Israelis are not ipso facto wonderful people.
But Palestinians are dumber
They've had numerous chances for a good, independent state. And they've rejected all of them.
I mean, what is there to do? Who the hell do you even negotiate with?
Palestinians have been idiots for 80 years. That's the problem. They think massacring a 1000+ innocent people and kidnapping hundreds of others is a great idea.
Yeah, well, that was a terrible idea and they are paying the consequences
Israelis aren't wonderful, but Palestinians are literally the dumbest people on the planet. They chose this.
How are Palestinians dumber? Bibi literally funds Hamas while elderly Holocaust survivors barely have enough to eat in Israel. That’s smart ?
Do you think Palestinians would ever support Ben Gvir or the right wing Kahanists/extremists and give them money to create settlements in the West Bank? They wouldn’t but Israel playing with fire until it got burned by Hamas
Your assumption is that Palestinians are docile idiots that got played by Netanyahu. And that Hamas is nothing more than a fabrication created by Israel.
Yeah, well, no.
Israelis made a terrible mistake electing this government. And they recognize that now. Netanyahu is polling at 4 percent presently. He'll be done once there are elections again. And there will be an investigation about the security failures that led to 10/7.
But Palestinians? Optimistically, this war ends when Sinwar is dead. Realistically, nothing ends until Palestinians choose some decent leaders. And they've shown no capacity to do so.
Israel has every right to destroy Hamas. Palestinians in Gaza chose war. It's brutal. It's unfair. But this is what Palestinians in Gaza chose for themselves. If you don't like the consequences, maybe don't invade and massacre and rape and kidnap a bunch of innocent people. And maybe choose better leaders. Every death is on the Palestinians in Gaza. They chose poorly - as they always seem to do.
Israel, because it's a democracy and notably nearly 25 percent Arab, will correct itself. But if Palestinians continue to choose Islamic extremists like Hamas or corrupt dinosaurs like the PA, well, things are going to continue to be a little hopeless. It's all up to the Palestinian people.
Easy to justify your pro-Israel views by calling Palestinians stupid but I doubt that they are any more stupid than you or me. All people want the same thing - safety, security, food, housing, jobs, a future for their children. They were offered bad deals - end of story.
They didn't love their children enough to choose peace, apparently.
I hate what is happening in Gaza - but come on. Palestinians are not babies who never had a choice in their whole lives. Don't belittle them by making them that passive and incompetent. They made choices - and those choices have consequences. I'm not excusing everything Israel did - but do you think for one second that any other country would have done things differently than what Israel did after 10/7? If so please point me toward one example.
I think there were other paths that Israel could have taken. Treating Palestinians like they are vermin to be crushed and pushed out of the way has gone pretty well for Israel but is still causing major problems. Jewish people have gotten far by intimidation. If you speak up against Israel you get silenced or doxed. This strategy is not working as well as it did in the past. Who knows what the future holds?
Well obviously Israel is not going to go with the do nothing in response because we deserve it strategy or the now give Palestinians what they want because they sure showed us strategy.
But you actually didn't respond to the what should have Israel done after 10/7 question actually your response was along the lines of why they deserved it.
What does the future hold--more people in Gaza dying.
They should have gone after Hamas leadership before doing anything else.
But wow, that was a pretty blasé final comment. Your indifference to human suffering is fascinating.
I’m not sure I can ever come to understand how people who were trembling on their knees to be saved by the world just 80 years ago could have taken such a vicious “Hold my beer” strategy to new lows, but I guess some people never learn.
Not the previous poster.
The world is not a James Bond movie. I'm sure the multi-millionaire Hamas leadership in Qatar are dead men walking. Mossad will get them eventually, as they did with the terrorists that murdered athletes at the Olympics at Munich. Eichmann etc. Mossad will kill them in the end. It's probably not a great time for Hamas leaders to get on one of their private jets in Doha. The Prigozhin solution is always there.
But it will take time. These are not simple operations.
In the meantime, getting Yahya Sinwar, the head of Hamas in Gaza, is critical. I'm hopeful that military operations end when he's dead
And Israel is right to defend itself. Palestinians in Gaza invaded Israel and did what they did. They chose war. And war is what they're getting.
You expect Israelis to simply take these atrocities? Yeah, not happening. Palestinians have been given their own state several times. Always rejected. Instead they always choose terror. I mean, 80 years of this. How do you possibly negotiate with Palestinians?
Given
Cool, I wonder what your welcome would look like if someone dropped by to take possession of your property tomorrow morning, magnanimously subdivided it, and “gave” about 45% of it back to you (bad news: the house will have to shared).
I suspect we wouldn’t be able to count on you to organize a ticker tape parade in their honor later in the week.
DP. I reject your flawed framing, but to play along, maybe they should be nicer to people who have an even longer claim to the land. Or at least not go for whatever fascistic fanaticism Hamas is selling.
Israelis have a longer claim to the land in the same sense that I have a right to kick out whoever currently lives in my Italian great -grandfather's pre-immigration home.
Nah, it’s much different from your weird analogy.
Because of the whole god given, chosen people fairytale?
No. Because Jews have lived there for 3000 years.
And now now, if you are going to toss the fairy tale take around, you’ll have to do it for Islam and Christianity too.
Raised Catholic, and happy to join you in labeling organized religion in all forms as fairytales.
Israel is free to do whatever it damn wants which seems to be to kill as many Palestinians as possible but in that case Jewish people should stop acting shocked when the rest of the world views Israel as a heartless, cold blooded nation with no soul
This is the most common sense thing I have read about what is going on...and a few years ago it would not all have had to been said, but progressives have distored common sense.
Okay. Two things.
1. It is illogical to say "bad things happen and people get moved all the time" but conclude this with "Israel is here to stay". If things change and people move, they can change for Israel too.
2. "Everyone comes to an accommodation" not by hugs and kisses, but through restoration of rights. There is a reason Jews can reclaim stolen and compensated property in many places in Europe - because people acknowledged that what happened to them was unjust. They weren't told to just get over it. Israel restores pre-1948 property to Jews who can prove ownership. Not to Arabs, mind you. Never to Arabs. You come to an accommodation when the party that wronged you acknowledges the wrong and makes an effort to compensate for the wrong. "Get over it" is not an accommodation.
3. I find it terribly ironic when people parrot the line of "Palestinians were offered their own state on three different occasions!" but you press them for details and turns out they don't know crap about what was actually offered.
DP.
I know exactly what was offered on each occasion and think that the following is inarguably true:
1. The Palestinians will not get a better deal in the future than what they’ve previously been offered.
2. The Palestinian people would be FAR better off today had they accepted any of the previous offers.
By any measure of real world impact, the Palestinian leadership has chosen poorly.
Yes they have.
During decolonization, they were given a very nice state that stretched from the border with Lebanon to the Negev. Hills. Forests, a good coastline on the Mediterranean. Towns like Nazareth and Hebron. Olive groves. But they chose war instead.
In 1993, with the Oslo Accords, they were given all of Gaza and 97 percent of the West Bank. Israel would have compensated the remaining 3 percent with their own lands. All the West Bank settlers would have been long gone by now.
Instead, Palestinians chose intifada.
I don't mean this unkindly, but Palestinians seem to be incapable of having effective leadership. They choose Hamas. They choose Islamic Jihad. They choose the Palestinian Authority, one of the most corrupt parties in the world. Back on the day, the chose the PLO - murdering Olympic athletes, hijacking airplanes, causing a civil war in Lebanon, assassinating Prime Ministers in Jordan, supporting the invasion of Kuwait.
I mean, what is there to say. If they had chosen a Gandhi or a MLK, they would have had a state for a long time now. But they don't. They always choose terrorism, violence, corruption, fanaticism. How do you work with this?
Serious question: How do you keep a straight face pretending that someone like Bibi would have EVER allowed the establishment of a Palestinian state of any kind over the past 27 years? Seriously, how do you do it?
i think Netanyahu and Likud are terrible.
Israelis are genuinely stupid for going with this. There are a lot of extremists in Israel. I mean they murdered Yitzhak Rabin for goodness sake. Israelis are not ipso facto wonderful people.
But Palestinians are dumber
They've had numerous chances for a good, independent state. And they've rejected all of them.
I mean, what is there to do? Who the hell do you even negotiate with?
Palestinians have been idiots for 80 years. That's the problem. They think massacring a 1000+ innocent people and kidnapping hundreds of others is a great idea.
Yeah, well, that was a terrible idea and they are paying the consequences
Israelis aren't wonderful, but Palestinians are literally the dumbest people on the planet. They chose this.
How are Palestinians dumber? Bibi literally funds Hamas while elderly Holocaust survivors barely have enough to eat in Israel. That’s smart ?
Do you think Palestinians would ever support Ben Gvir or the right wing Kahanists/extremists and give them money to create settlements in the West Bank? They wouldn’t but Israel playing with fire until it got burned by Hamas
Your assumption is that Palestinians are docile idiots that got played by Netanyahu. And that Hamas is nothing more than a fabrication created by Israel.
Yeah, well, no.
Israelis made a terrible mistake electing this government. And they recognize that now. Netanyahu is polling at 4 percent presently. He'll be done once there are elections again. And there will be an investigation about the security failures that led to 10/7.
But Palestinians? Optimistically, this war ends when Sinwar is dead. Realistically, nothing ends until Palestinians choose some decent leaders. And they've shown no capacity to do so.
Israel has every right to destroy Hamas. Palestinians in Gaza chose war. It's brutal. It's unfair. But this is what Palestinians in Gaza chose for themselves. If you don't like the consequences, maybe don't invade and massacre and rape and kidnap a bunch of innocent people. And maybe choose better leaders. Every death is on the Palestinians in Gaza. They chose poorly - as they always seem to do.
Israel, because it's a democracy and notably nearly 25 percent Arab, will correct itself. But if Palestinians continue to choose Islamic extremists like Hamas or corrupt dinosaurs like the PA, well, things are going to continue to be a little hopeless. It's all up to the Palestinian people.
Easy to justify your pro-Israel views by calling Palestinians stupid but I doubt that they are any more stupid than you or me. All people want the same thing - safety, security, food, housing, jobs, a future for their children. They were offered bad deals - end of story.
They didn't love their children enough to choose peace, apparently.
I hate what is happening in Gaza - but come on. Palestinians are not babies who never had a choice in their whole lives. Don't belittle them by making them that passive and incompetent. They made choices - and those choices have consequences. I'm not excusing everything Israel did - but do you think for one second that any other country would have done things differently than what Israel did after 10/7? If so please point me toward one example.
I think there were other paths that Israel could have taken. Treating Palestinians like they are vermin to be crushed and pushed out of the way has gone pretty well for Israel but is still causing major problems. Jewish people have gotten far by intimidation. If you speak up against Israel you get silenced or doxed. This strategy is not working as well as it did in the past. Who knows what the future holds?
Well obviously Israel is not going to go with the do nothing in response because we deserve it strategy or the now give Palestinians what they want because they sure showed us strategy.
But you actually didn't respond to the what should have Israel done after 10/7 question actually your response was along the lines of why they deserved it.
What does the future hold--more people in Gaza dying.
They should have gone after Hamas leadership before doing anything else.
But wow, that was a pretty blasé final comment. Your indifference to human suffering is fascinating.
I’m not sure I can ever come to understand how people who were trembling on their knees to be saved by the world just 80 years ago could have taken such a vicious “Hold my beer” strategy to new lows, but I guess some people never learn.
Not the previous poster.
The world is not a James Bond movie. I'm sure the multi-millionaire Hamas leadership in Qatar are dead men walking. Mossad will get them eventually, as they did with the terrorists that murdered athletes at the Olympics at Munich. Eichmann etc. Mossad will kill them in the end. It's probably not a great time for Hamas leaders to get on one of their private jets in Doha. The Prigozhin solution is always there.
But it will take time. These are not simple operations.
In the meantime, getting Yahya Sinwar, the head of Hamas in Gaza, is critical. I'm hopeful that military operations end when he's dead
And Israel is right to defend itself. Palestinians in Gaza invaded Israel and did what they did. They chose war. And war is what they're getting.
You expect Israelis to simply take these atrocities? Yeah, not happening. Palestinians have been given their own state several times. Always rejected. Instead they always choose terror. I mean, 80 years of this. How do you possibly negotiate with Palestinians?
Given
Cool, I wonder what your welcome would look like if someone dropped by to take possession of your property tomorrow morning, magnanimously subdivided it, and “gave” about 45% of it back to you (bad news: the house will have to shared).
I suspect we wouldn’t be able to count on you to organize a ticker tape parade in their honor later in the week.
DP. I reject your flawed framing, but to play along, maybe they should be nicer to people who have an even longer claim to the land. Or at least not go for whatever fascistic fanaticism Hamas is selling.
Israelis have a longer claim to the land in the same sense that I have a right to kick out whoever currently lives in my Italian great -grandfather's pre-immigration home.
Nah, it’s much different from your weird analogy.
Because of the whole god given, chosen people fairytale?
No. Because Jews have lived there for 3000 years.
And now now, if you are going to toss the fairy tale take around, you’ll have to do it for Islam and Christianity too.
Raised Catholic, and happy to join you in labeling organized religion in all forms as fairytales.
Go ahead with that take, but that opinion does nothing to negate Jewish people’s ancestral connection to Israel.
Anonymous wrote:People are acting like those who oppose the IDF's actions are somehow pro-Hamas. We are not. October 7th was evil. Horrifically so. But what is going on now? Also evil. Scorched earth warfare is evil. Killing civilians is evil. Letting babies die in hospitals is evil. Setting food supplies on fire is evil. Every rational person was filled with grief and outrage at the straight up demonic acts committed on October 7th. But that doesn't mean it's 100% okay to do whatever you want in retaliation with no regard for innocent human life.
IDF was never applying “scorched earth warfare.” And it is hardly bombing anything anymore, other than drone strikes on terrorists who surface above ground. The IDF shows more regard for human life than its psychopathic enemies would in 1,000 lifetimes.
Yes, yes, killing women sheltering in a Catholic Church and shooting dead at point blank range a journalist documenting the dead babies killed by the IDF.
HUGE regard for innocent human life.
No idea about those allegations. This is a hugely stressful urban warfare environment against a sadistic enemy that turned Gaza into the world’s largest military fortification. Israel is fighting with one hand tied behind its back and exposing its soldiers to greater risk as a result of US instructions. Its soldiers are human too.
Now the Pope and the Associated Press are lying (the Pope spoke on the church murders this morning, and the AP has also reported on the church killings and the journalist assassination), joining the U.N., the Irish, and anyone who expresses concern for the atrocities occurring in Gaza since 10/7 (and who also expressed outrage for the atrocities that occurred in Israel on 10/7) as unreliable sources.
FFS, do you hear yourself? What level of dishonesty is too far for you?
The IDF isn’t fighting with one hand behind its back. It’s fighting with an insurmountable set of advantages gifted by America. GTFOH with this largest military fortification nonsense, too. It’s just that the guiding principle of your military is vengeance, your personnel is comprised of amateurs who are scared to fight on level footing, they are poorly led, and they are operating without any pretense of accountability.
Word salad.
Genocidal White Supremacist says what?
What a strange, baseless accusation.
Didn’t see anything after “what”.
Checks out.
Nope. It’s impossible to respond to a word salad rant. But ok, here’s one thing. A “level footing” against Hamas would be hiding behind women and children, as Hamas does, or hiding in billions of dollars of tunnels, as Hamas does. No need to play by psychopathic terrorists’ rules, right?
Hamas sucks. No like. Down with Hamas. Too much death. Also down with bad IDF.
Is that less word salad-y for you? I mean, I know it doesn’t fit your attempt to shout down posts you don’t like as “crazy”. But otherwise OK?
Hey bro, it’s your post. You say “down with bad IDF.” I don’t see it that way. But you do you.
You label views that upset the “Israel is righteous” apple cart as word salad to try to derail the point being made.
Don’t hit the ripcord now. It’s a dirty, sleazy tactic, but you should own it.
The points are unpersuasive. Maybe read more widely?
Unpersuasive to YOU, someone whose belief system and emotional existence is directly challenged by what’s being said.
The fact that YOU are not persuaded doesn’t move me.
You’re a true believer of the fairytales that you’ve been taught, that place you at the center of the universe. Fairytales that proclaim you better than others by virtue of blood rights, not by virtue of your words and deeds.
As for reading more, we can dispense with petty insults. That’s a game I don’t care to play with someone hiding behind the veil of supposed anonymity.
Israel has 30,000 Iran-backed Hamas terrorists to deal with in Gaza (minus the 7,000 or so eliminated). Then, there is Hezbollah with its 100K Iran supplied rockets. Throw in the Jew hating lunacy in Syria, the Houthi stuff, the UN, and global antisemitism that has grown especially nasty after (?!) the butchering and rape and desecration of Jews on October 7, and so on, and yeah, sorry, college campus “freedom fighters,” I’m still seeing Jews as the underdog.
Israel is free to do whatever it damn wants which seems to be to kill as many Palestinians as possible but in that case Jewish people should stop acting shocked when the rest of the world views Israel as a heartless, cold blooded nation with no soul
This is the most common sense thing I have read about what is going on...and a few years ago it would not all have had to been said, but progressives have distored common sense.
Okay. Two things.
1. It is illogical to say "bad things happen and people get moved all the time" but conclude this with "Israel is here to stay". If things change and people move, they can change for Israel too.
2. "Everyone comes to an accommodation" not by hugs and kisses, but through restoration of rights. There is a reason Jews can reclaim stolen and compensated property in many places in Europe - because people acknowledged that what happened to them was unjust. They weren't told to just get over it. Israel restores pre-1948 property to Jews who can prove ownership. Not to Arabs, mind you. Never to Arabs. You come to an accommodation when the party that wronged you acknowledges the wrong and makes an effort to compensate for the wrong. "Get over it" is not an accommodation.
3. I find it terribly ironic when people parrot the line of "Palestinians were offered their own state on three different occasions!" but you press them for details and turns out they don't know crap about what was actually offered.
DP.
I know exactly what was offered on each occasion and think that the following is inarguably true:
1. The Palestinians will not get a better deal in the future than what they’ve previously been offered.
2. The Palestinian people would be FAR better off today had they accepted any of the previous offers.
By any measure of real world impact, the Palestinian leadership has chosen poorly.
Yes they have.
During decolonization, they were given a very nice state that stretched from the border with Lebanon to the Negev. Hills. Forests, a good coastline on the Mediterranean. Towns like Nazareth and Hebron. Olive groves. But they chose war instead.
In 1993, with the Oslo Accords, they were given all of Gaza and 97 percent of the West Bank. Israel would have compensated the remaining 3 percent with their own lands. All the West Bank settlers would have been long gone by now.
Instead, Palestinians chose intifada.
I don't mean this unkindly, but Palestinians seem to be incapable of having effective leadership. They choose Hamas. They choose Islamic Jihad. They choose the Palestinian Authority, one of the most corrupt parties in the world. Back on the day, the chose the PLO - murdering Olympic athletes, hijacking airplanes, causing a civil war in Lebanon, assassinating Prime Ministers in Jordan, supporting the invasion of Kuwait.
I mean, what is there to say. If they had chosen a Gandhi or a MLK, they would have had a state for a long time now. But they don't. They always choose terrorism, violence, corruption, fanaticism. How do you work with this?
Serious question: How do you keep a straight face pretending that someone like Bibi would have EVER allowed the establishment of a Palestinian state of any kind over the past 27 years? Seriously, how do you do it?
i think Netanyahu and Likud are terrible.
Israelis are genuinely stupid for going with this. There are a lot of extremists in Israel. I mean they murdered Yitzhak Rabin for goodness sake. Israelis are not ipso facto wonderful people.
But Palestinians are dumber
They've had numerous chances for a good, independent state. And they've rejected all of them.
I mean, what is there to do? Who the hell do you even negotiate with?
Palestinians have been idiots for 80 years. That's the problem. They think massacring a 1000+ innocent people and kidnapping hundreds of others is a great idea.
Yeah, well, that was a terrible idea and they are paying the consequences
Israelis aren't wonderful, but Palestinians are literally the dumbest people on the planet. They chose this.
How are Palestinians dumber? Bibi literally funds Hamas while elderly Holocaust survivors barely have enough to eat in Israel. That’s smart ?
Do you think Palestinians would ever support Ben Gvir or the right wing Kahanists/extremists and give them money to create settlements in the West Bank? They wouldn’t but Israel playing with fire until it got burned by Hamas
Your assumption is that Palestinians are docile idiots that got played by Netanyahu. And that Hamas is nothing more than a fabrication created by Israel.
Yeah, well, no.
Israelis made a terrible mistake electing this government. And they recognize that now. Netanyahu is polling at 4 percent presently. He'll be done once there are elections again. And there will be an investigation about the security failures that led to 10/7.
But Palestinians? Optimistically, this war ends when Sinwar is dead. Realistically, nothing ends until Palestinians choose some decent leaders. And they've shown no capacity to do so.
Israel has every right to destroy Hamas. Palestinians in Gaza chose war. It's brutal. It's unfair. But this is what Palestinians in Gaza chose for themselves. If you don't like the consequences, maybe don't invade and massacre and rape and kidnap a bunch of innocent people. And maybe choose better leaders. Every death is on the Palestinians in Gaza. They chose poorly - as they always seem to do.
Israel, because it's a democracy and notably nearly 25 percent Arab, will correct itself. But if Palestinians continue to choose Islamic extremists like Hamas or corrupt dinosaurs like the PA, well, things are going to continue to be a little hopeless. It's all up to the Palestinian people.
Easy to justify your pro-Israel views by calling Palestinians stupid but I doubt that they are any more stupid than you or me. All people want the same thing - safety, security, food, housing, jobs, a future for their children. They were offered bad deals - end of story.
They didn't love their children enough to choose peace, apparently.
I hate what is happening in Gaza - but come on. Palestinians are not babies who never had a choice in their whole lives. Don't belittle them by making them that passive and incompetent. They made choices - and those choices have consequences. I'm not excusing everything Israel did - but do you think for one second that any other country would have done things differently than what Israel did after 10/7? If so please point me toward one example.
I think there were other paths that Israel could have taken. Treating Palestinians like they are vermin to be crushed and pushed out of the way has gone pretty well for Israel but is still causing major problems. Jewish people have gotten far by intimidation. If you speak up against Israel you get silenced or doxed. This strategy is not working as well as it did in the past. Who knows what the future holds?
Well obviously Israel is not going to go with the do nothing in response because we deserve it strategy or the now give Palestinians what they want because they sure showed us strategy.
But you actually didn't respond to the what should have Israel done after 10/7 question actually your response was along the lines of why they deserved it.
What does the future hold--more people in Gaza dying.
They should have gone after Hamas leadership before doing anything else.
But wow, that was a pretty blasé final comment. Your indifference to human suffering is fascinating.
I’m not sure I can ever come to understand how people who were trembling on their knees to be saved by the world just 80 years ago could have taken such a vicious “Hold my beer” strategy to new lows, but I guess some people never learn.
Not the previous poster.
The world is not a James Bond movie. I'm sure the multi-millionaire Hamas leadership in Qatar are dead men walking. Mossad will get them eventually, as they did with the terrorists that murdered athletes at the Olympics at Munich. Eichmann etc. Mossad will kill them in the end. It's probably not a great time for Hamas leaders to get on one of their private jets in Doha. The Prigozhin solution is always there.
But it will take time. These are not simple operations.
In the meantime, getting Yahya Sinwar, the head of Hamas in Gaza, is critical. I'm hopeful that military operations end when he's dead
And Israel is right to defend itself. Palestinians in Gaza invaded Israel and did what they did. They chose war. And war is what they're getting.
You expect Israelis to simply take these atrocities? Yeah, not happening. Palestinians have been given their own state several times. Always rejected. Instead they always choose terror. I mean, 80 years of this. How do you possibly negotiate with Palestinians?
Given
Cool, I wonder what your welcome would look like if someone dropped by to take possession of your property tomorrow morning, magnanimously subdivided it, and “gave” about 45% of it back to you (bad news: the house will have to shared).
I suspect we wouldn’t be able to count on you to organize a ticker tape parade in their honor later in the week.
DP. I reject your flawed framing, but to play along, maybe they should be nicer to people who have an even longer claim to the land. Or at least not go for whatever fascistic fanaticism Hamas is selling.
Israelis have a longer claim to the land in the same sense that I have a right to kick out whoever currently lives in my Italian great -grandfather's pre-immigration home.
Nah, it’s much different from your weird analogy.
Because of the whole god given, chosen people fairytale?
No. Because Jews have lived there for 3000 years.
And now now, if you are going to toss the fairy tale take around, you’ll have to do it for Islam and Christianity too.
Raised Catholic, and happy to join you in labeling organized religion in all forms as fairytales.
Go ahead with that take, but that opinion does nothing to negate Jewish people’s ancestral connection to Israel.
I’m not here to dispute that Jews lived in the ME region thousands of years ago, or that a small group remained in the region over time.
I’m here to dispute that more than perhaps 10-15% of the worldwide “Jewish” population alive here in late 2023 is actually descended from the Jews who lived in the ME region thousands of years ago. And that’s true of the Israeli population, too. No more than 10-15% of them descend from the tribe.
Israel is free to do whatever it damn wants which seems to be to kill as many Palestinians as possible but in that case Jewish people should stop acting shocked when the rest of the world views Israel as a heartless, cold blooded nation with no soul
This is the most common sense thing I have read about what is going on...and a few years ago it would not all have had to been said, but progressives have distored common sense.
Okay. Two things.
1. It is illogical to say "bad things happen and people get moved all the time" but conclude this with "Israel is here to stay". If things change and people move, they can change for Israel too.
2. "Everyone comes to an accommodation" not by hugs and kisses, but through restoration of rights. There is a reason Jews can reclaim stolen and compensated property in many places in Europe - because people acknowledged that what happened to them was unjust. They weren't told to just get over it. Israel restores pre-1948 property to Jews who can prove ownership. Not to Arabs, mind you. Never to Arabs. You come to an accommodation when the party that wronged you acknowledges the wrong and makes an effort to compensate for the wrong. "Get over it" is not an accommodation.
3. I find it terribly ironic when people parrot the line of "Palestinians were offered their own state on three different occasions!" but you press them for details and turns out they don't know crap about what was actually offered.
DP.
I know exactly what was offered on each occasion and think that the following is inarguably true:
1. The Palestinians will not get a better deal in the future than what they’ve previously been offered.
2. The Palestinian people would be FAR better off today had they accepted any of the previous offers.
By any measure of real world impact, the Palestinian leadership has chosen poorly.
Yes they have.
During decolonization, they were given a very nice state that stretched from the border with Lebanon to the Negev. Hills. Forests, a good coastline on the Mediterranean. Towns like Nazareth and Hebron. Olive groves. But they chose war instead.
In 1993, with the Oslo Accords, they were given all of Gaza and 97 percent of the West Bank. Israel would have compensated the remaining 3 percent with their own lands. All the West Bank settlers would have been long gone by now.
Instead, Palestinians chose intifada.
I don't mean this unkindly, but Palestinians seem to be incapable of having effective leadership. They choose Hamas. They choose Islamic Jihad. They choose the Palestinian Authority, one of the most corrupt parties in the world. Back on the day, the chose the PLO - murdering Olympic athletes, hijacking airplanes, causing a civil war in Lebanon, assassinating Prime Ministers in Jordan, supporting the invasion of Kuwait.
I mean, what is there to say. If they had chosen a Gandhi or a MLK, they would have had a state for a long time now. But they don't. They always choose terrorism, violence, corruption, fanaticism. How do you work with this?
Serious question: How do you keep a straight face pretending that someone like Bibi would have EVER allowed the establishment of a Palestinian state of any kind over the past 27 years? Seriously, how do you do it?
i think Netanyahu and Likud are terrible.
Israelis are genuinely stupid for going with this. There are a lot of extremists in Israel. I mean they murdered Yitzhak Rabin for goodness sake. Israelis are not ipso facto wonderful people.
But Palestinians are dumber
They've had numerous chances for a good, independent state. And they've rejected all of them.
I mean, what is there to do? Who the hell do you even negotiate with?
Palestinians have been idiots for 80 years. That's the problem. They think massacring a 1000+ innocent people and kidnapping hundreds of others is a great idea.
Yeah, well, that was a terrible idea and they are paying the consequences
Israelis aren't wonderful, but Palestinians are literally the dumbest people on the planet. They chose this.
How are Palestinians dumber? Bibi literally funds Hamas while elderly Holocaust survivors barely have enough to eat in Israel. That’s smart ?
Do you think Palestinians would ever support Ben Gvir or the right wing Kahanists/extremists and give them money to create settlements in the West Bank? They wouldn’t but Israel playing with fire until it got burned by Hamas
Your assumption is that Palestinians are docile idiots that got played by Netanyahu. And that Hamas is nothing more than a fabrication created by Israel.
Yeah, well, no.
Israelis made a terrible mistake electing this government. And they recognize that now. Netanyahu is polling at 4 percent presently. He'll be done once there are elections again. And there will be an investigation about the security failures that led to 10/7.
But Palestinians? Optimistically, this war ends when Sinwar is dead. Realistically, nothing ends until Palestinians choose some decent leaders. And they've shown no capacity to do so.
Israel has every right to destroy Hamas. Palestinians in Gaza chose war. It's brutal. It's unfair. But this is what Palestinians in Gaza chose for themselves. If you don't like the consequences, maybe don't invade and massacre and rape and kidnap a bunch of innocent people. And maybe choose better leaders. Every death is on the Palestinians in Gaza. They chose poorly - as they always seem to do.
Israel, because it's a democracy and notably nearly 25 percent Arab, will correct itself. But if Palestinians continue to choose Islamic extremists like Hamas or corrupt dinosaurs like the PA, well, things are going to continue to be a little hopeless. It's all up to the Palestinian people.
Easy to justify your pro-Israel views by calling Palestinians stupid but I doubt that they are any more stupid than you or me. All people want the same thing - safety, security, food, housing, jobs, a future for their children. They were offered bad deals - end of story.
They didn't love their children enough to choose peace, apparently.
I hate what is happening in Gaza - but come on. Palestinians are not babies who never had a choice in their whole lives. Don't belittle them by making them that passive and incompetent. They made choices - and those choices have consequences. I'm not excusing everything Israel did - but do you think for one second that any other country would have done things differently than what Israel did after 10/7? If so please point me toward one example.
I think there were other paths that Israel could have taken. Treating Palestinians like they are vermin to be crushed and pushed out of the way has gone pretty well for Israel but is still causing major problems. Jewish people have gotten far by intimidation. If you speak up against Israel you get silenced or doxed. This strategy is not working as well as it did in the past. Who knows what the future holds?
Well obviously Israel is not going to go with the do nothing in response because we deserve it strategy or the now give Palestinians what they want because they sure showed us strategy.
But you actually didn't respond to the what should have Israel done after 10/7 question actually your response was along the lines of why they deserved it.
What does the future hold--more people in Gaza dying.
They should have gone after Hamas leadership before doing anything else.
But wow, that was a pretty blasé final comment. Your indifference to human suffering is fascinating.
I’m not sure I can ever come to understand how people who were trembling on their knees to be saved by the world just 80 years ago could have taken such a vicious “Hold my beer” strategy to new lows, but I guess some people never learn.
Not the previous poster.
The world is not a James Bond movie. I'm sure the multi-millionaire Hamas leadership in Qatar are dead men walking. Mossad will get them eventually, as they did with the terrorists that murdered athletes at the Olympics at Munich. Eichmann etc. Mossad will kill them in the end. It's probably not a great time for Hamas leaders to get on one of their private jets in Doha. The Prigozhin solution is always there.
But it will take time. These are not simple operations.
In the meantime, getting Yahya Sinwar, the head of Hamas in Gaza, is critical. I'm hopeful that military operations end when he's dead
And Israel is right to defend itself. Palestinians in Gaza invaded Israel and did what they did. They chose war. And war is what they're getting.
You expect Israelis to simply take these atrocities? Yeah, not happening. Palestinians have been given their own state several times. Always rejected. Instead they always choose terror. I mean, 80 years of this. How do you possibly negotiate with Palestinians?
Given
Cool, I wonder what your welcome would look like if someone dropped by to take possession of your property tomorrow morning, magnanimously subdivided it, and “gave” about 45% of it back to you (bad news: the house will have to shared).
I suspect we wouldn’t be able to count on you to organize a ticker tape parade in their honor later in the week.
DP. I reject your flawed framing, but to play along, maybe they should be nicer to people who have an even longer claim to the land. Or at least not go for whatever fascistic fanaticism Hamas is selling.
Israelis have a longer claim to the land in the same sense that I have a right to kick out whoever currently lives in my Italian great -grandfather's pre-immigration home.
If that’s so, why does Israel suffer with the highest skin cancer rates after Australia? European settlement to warm places is never natural.
Arabs naturally belong in Israel whether they are Muslim, Christian, or Jewish . Let’s not spread delusions about the word Mizrahi. The real term should be Arab Jew. An Iraqi Jew is an Arab Jew. The word Mizrahi doesn’t even make sense as it means Eastern and most of the countries they come from are West of Israel (Morocco, Egypt, Libya, Tunisia). That’s the majority ethnic population of Israel along with Russian
Israel is free to do whatever it damn wants which seems to be to kill as many Palestinians as possible but in that case Jewish people should stop acting shocked when the rest of the world views Israel as a heartless, cold blooded nation with no soul
This is the most common sense thing I have read about what is going on...and a few years ago it would not all have had to been said, but progressives have distored common sense.
Okay. Two things.
1. It is illogical to say "bad things happen and people get moved all the time" but conclude this with "Israel is here to stay". If things change and people move, they can change for Israel too.
2. "Everyone comes to an accommodation" not by hugs and kisses, but through restoration of rights. There is a reason Jews can reclaim stolen and compensated property in many places in Europe - because people acknowledged that what happened to them was unjust. They weren't told to just get over it. Israel restores pre-1948 property to Jews who can prove ownership. Not to Arabs, mind you. Never to Arabs. You come to an accommodation when the party that wronged you acknowledges the wrong and makes an effort to compensate for the wrong. "Get over it" is not an accommodation.
3. I find it terribly ironic when people parrot the line of "Palestinians were offered their own state on three different occasions!" but you press them for details and turns out they don't know crap about what was actually offered.
DP.
I know exactly what was offered on each occasion and think that the following is inarguably true:
1. The Palestinians will not get a better deal in the future than what they’ve previously been offered.
2. The Palestinian people would be FAR better off today had they accepted any of the previous offers.
By any measure of real world impact, the Palestinian leadership has chosen poorly.
Yes they have.
During decolonization, they were given a very nice state that stretched from the border with Lebanon to the Negev. Hills. Forests, a good coastline on the Mediterranean. Towns like Nazareth and Hebron. Olive groves. But they chose war instead.
In 1993, with the Oslo Accords, they were given all of Gaza and 97 percent of the West Bank. Israel would have compensated the remaining 3 percent with their own lands. All the West Bank settlers would have been long gone by now.
Instead, Palestinians chose intifada.
I don't mean this unkindly, but Palestinians seem to be incapable of having effective leadership. They choose Hamas. They choose Islamic Jihad. They choose the Palestinian Authority, one of the most corrupt parties in the world. Back on the day, the chose the PLO - murdering Olympic athletes, hijacking airplanes, causing a civil war in Lebanon, assassinating Prime Ministers in Jordan, supporting the invasion of Kuwait.
I mean, what is there to say. If they had chosen a Gandhi or a MLK, they would have had a state for a long time now. But they don't. They always choose terrorism, violence, corruption, fanaticism. How do you work with this?
Serious question: How do you keep a straight face pretending that someone like Bibi would have EVER allowed the establishment of a Palestinian state of any kind over the past 27 years? Seriously, how do you do it?
i think Netanyahu and Likud are terrible.
Israelis are genuinely stupid for going with this. There are a lot of extremists in Israel. I mean they murdered Yitzhak Rabin for goodness sake. Israelis are not ipso facto wonderful people.
But Palestinians are dumber
They've had numerous chances for a good, independent state. And they've rejected all of them.
I mean, what is there to do? Who the hell do you even negotiate with?
Palestinians have been idiots for 80 years. That's the problem. They think massacring a 1000+ innocent people and kidnapping hundreds of others is a great idea.
Yeah, well, that was a terrible idea and they are paying the consequences
Israelis aren't wonderful, but Palestinians are literally the dumbest people on the planet. They chose this.
How are Palestinians dumber? Bibi literally funds Hamas while elderly Holocaust survivors barely have enough to eat in Israel. That’s smart ?
Do you think Palestinians would ever support Ben Gvir or the right wing Kahanists/extremists and give them money to create settlements in the West Bank? They wouldn’t but Israel playing with fire until it got burned by Hamas
Your assumption is that Palestinians are docile idiots that got played by Netanyahu. And that Hamas is nothing more than a fabrication created by Israel.
Yeah, well, no.
Israelis made a terrible mistake electing this government. And they recognize that now. Netanyahu is polling at 4 percent presently. He'll be done once there are elections again. And there will be an investigation about the security failures that led to 10/7.
But Palestinians? Optimistically, this war ends when Sinwar is dead. Realistically, nothing ends until Palestinians choose some decent leaders. And they've shown no capacity to do so.
Israel has every right to destroy Hamas. Palestinians in Gaza chose war. It's brutal. It's unfair. But this is what Palestinians in Gaza chose for themselves. If you don't like the consequences, maybe don't invade and massacre and rape and kidnap a bunch of innocent people. And maybe choose better leaders. Every death is on the Palestinians in Gaza. They chose poorly - as they always seem to do.
Israel, because it's a democracy and notably nearly 25 percent Arab, will correct itself. But if Palestinians continue to choose Islamic extremists like Hamas or corrupt dinosaurs like the PA, well, things are going to continue to be a little hopeless. It's all up to the Palestinian people.
Easy to justify your pro-Israel views by calling Palestinians stupid but I doubt that they are any more stupid than you or me. All people want the same thing - safety, security, food, housing, jobs, a future for their children. They were offered bad deals - end of story.
They didn't love their children enough to choose peace, apparently.
I hate what is happening in Gaza - but come on. Palestinians are not babies who never had a choice in their whole lives. Don't belittle them by making them that passive and incompetent. They made choices - and those choices have consequences. I'm not excusing everything Israel did - but do you think for one second that any other country would have done things differently than what Israel did after 10/7? If so please point me toward one example.
I think there were other paths that Israel could have taken. Treating Palestinians like they are vermin to be crushed and pushed out of the way has gone pretty well for Israel but is still causing major problems. Jewish people have gotten far by intimidation. If you speak up against Israel you get silenced or doxed. This strategy is not working as well as it did in the past. Who knows what the future holds?
Well obviously Israel is not going to go with the do nothing in response because we deserve it strategy or the now give Palestinians what they want because they sure showed us strategy.
But you actually didn't respond to the what should have Israel done after 10/7 question actually your response was along the lines of why they deserved it.
What does the future hold--more people in Gaza dying.
They should have gone after Hamas leadership before doing anything else.
But wow, that was a pretty blasé final comment. Your indifference to human suffering is fascinating.
I’m not sure I can ever come to understand how people who were trembling on their knees to be saved by the world just 80 years ago could have taken such a vicious “Hold my beer” strategy to new lows, but I guess some people never learn.
Not the previous poster.
The world is not a James Bond movie. I'm sure the multi-millionaire Hamas leadership in Qatar are dead men walking. Mossad will get them eventually, as they did with the terrorists that murdered athletes at the Olympics at Munich. Eichmann etc. Mossad will kill them in the end. It's probably not a great time for Hamas leaders to get on one of their private jets in Doha. The Prigozhin solution is always there.
But it will take time. These are not simple operations.
In the meantime, getting Yahya Sinwar, the head of Hamas in Gaza, is critical. I'm hopeful that military operations end when he's dead
And Israel is right to defend itself. Palestinians in Gaza invaded Israel and did what they did. They chose war. And war is what they're getting.
You expect Israelis to simply take these atrocities? Yeah, not happening. Palestinians have been given their own state several times. Always rejected. Instead they always choose terror. I mean, 80 years of this. How do you possibly negotiate with Palestinians?
Given
Cool, I wonder what your welcome would look like if someone dropped by to take possession of your property tomorrow morning, magnanimously subdivided it, and “gave” about 45% of it back to you (bad news: the house will have to shared).
I suspect we wouldn’t be able to count on you to organize a ticker tape parade in their honor later in the week.
DP. I reject your flawed framing, but to play along, maybe they should be nicer to people who have an even longer claim to the land. Or at least not go for whatever fascistic fanaticism Hamas is selling.
Israelis have a longer claim to the land in the same sense that I have a right to kick out whoever currently lives in my Italian great -grandfather's pre-immigration home.
Nah, it’s much different from your weird analogy.
Because of the whole god given, chosen people fairytale?
No. Because Jews have lived there for 3000 years.
And now now, if you are going to toss the fairy tale take around, you’ll have to do it for Islam and Christianity too.
Raised Catholic, and happy to join you in labeling organized religion in all forms as fairytales.
It does not change the fact that Israel is the ancestral home of Jews and that their rightful claim to the land is clearly and inarguably outlined and documented within the Torah.
Any other people who wish to live within Israel can either choose to live by their rules, or find another place to live.
Anonymous wrote:People are acting like those who oppose the IDF's actions are somehow pro-Hamas. We are not. October 7th was evil. Horrifically so. But what is going on now? Also evil. Scorched earth warfare is evil. Killing civilians is evil. Letting babies die in hospitals is evil. Setting food supplies on fire is evil. Every rational person was filled with grief and outrage at the straight up demonic acts committed on October 7th. But that doesn't mean it's 100% okay to do whatever you want in retaliation with no regard for innocent human life.
IDF was never applying “scorched earth warfare.” And it is hardly bombing anything anymore, other than drone strikes on terrorists who surface above ground. The IDF shows more regard for human life than its psychopathic enemies would in 1,000 lifetimes.
Yes, yes, killing women sheltering in a Catholic Church and shooting dead at point blank range a journalist documenting the dead babies killed by the IDF.
HUGE regard for innocent human life.
No idea about those allegations. This is a hugely stressful urban warfare environment against a sadistic enemy that turned Gaza into the world’s largest military fortification. Israel is fighting with one hand tied behind its back and exposing its soldiers to greater risk as a result of US instructions. Its soldiers are human too.
Now the Pope and the Associated Press are lying (the Pope spoke on the church murders this morning, and the AP has also reported on the church killings and the journalist assassination), joining the U.N., the Irish, and anyone who expresses concern for the atrocities occurring in Gaza since 10/7 (and who also expressed outrage for the atrocities that occurred in Israel on 10/7) as unreliable sources.
FFS, do you hear yourself? What level of dishonesty is too far for you?
The IDF isn’t fighting with one hand behind its back. It’s fighting with an insurmountable set of advantages gifted by America. GTFOH with this largest military fortification nonsense, too. It’s just that the guiding principle of your military is vengeance, your personnel is comprised of amateurs who are scared to fight on level footing, they are poorly led, and they are operating without any pretense of accountability.
Word salad.
Genocidal White Supremacist says what?
What a strange, baseless accusation.
Didn’t see anything after “what”.
Checks out.
Nope. It’s impossible to respond to a word salad rant. But ok, here’s one thing. A “level footing” against Hamas would be hiding behind women and children, as Hamas does, or hiding in billions of dollars of tunnels, as Hamas does. No need to play by psychopathic terrorists’ rules, right?
Hamas sucks. No like. Down with Hamas. Too much death. Also down with bad IDF.
Is that less word salad-y for you? I mean, I know it doesn’t fit your attempt to shout down posts you don’t like as “crazy”. But otherwise OK?
Hey bro, it’s your post. You say “down with bad IDF.” I don’t see it that way. But you do you.
You label views that upset the “Israel is righteous” apple cart as word salad to try to derail the point being made.
Don’t hit the ripcord now. It’s a dirty, sleazy tactic, but you should own it.
The points are unpersuasive. Maybe read more widely?
Unpersuasive to YOU, someone whose belief system and emotional existence is directly challenged by what’s being said.
The fact that YOU are not persuaded doesn’t move me.
You’re a true believer of the fairytales that you’ve been taught, that place you at the center of the universe. Fairytales that proclaim you better than others by virtue of blood rights, not by virtue of your words and deeds.
As for reading more, we can dispense with petty insults. That’s a game I don’t care to play with someone hiding behind the veil of supposed anonymity.
You see the IDF as motivated by vengeance, no? I see the IDF as motivated by needing to dismantle Hamas, a terrorist group that massacred, burned and raped Israelis on October 7. I do not believe in fairy tales or the supremacy of any group.
Israel is free to do whatever it damn wants which seems to be to kill as many Palestinians as possible but in that case Jewish people should stop acting shocked when the rest of the world views Israel as a heartless, cold blooded nation with no soul
This is the most common sense thing I have read about what is going on...and a few years ago it would not all have had to been said, but progressives have distored common sense.
Okay. Two things.
1. It is illogical to say "bad things happen and people get moved all the time" but conclude this with "Israel is here to stay". If things change and people move, they can change for Israel too.
2. "Everyone comes to an accommodation" not by hugs and kisses, but through restoration of rights. There is a reason Jews can reclaim stolen and compensated property in many places in Europe - because people acknowledged that what happened to them was unjust. They weren't told to just get over it. Israel restores pre-1948 property to Jews who can prove ownership. Not to Arabs, mind you. Never to Arabs. You come to an accommodation when the party that wronged you acknowledges the wrong and makes an effort to compensate for the wrong. "Get over it" is not an accommodation.
3. I find it terribly ironic when people parrot the line of "Palestinians were offered their own state on three different occasions!" but you press them for details and turns out they don't know crap about what was actually offered.
DP.
I know exactly what was offered on each occasion and think that the following is inarguably true:
1. The Palestinians will not get a better deal in the future than what they’ve previously been offered.
2. The Palestinian people would be FAR better off today had they accepted any of the previous offers.
By any measure of real world impact, the Palestinian leadership has chosen poorly.
Yes they have.
During decolonization, they were given a very nice state that stretched from the border with Lebanon to the Negev. Hills. Forests, a good coastline on the Mediterranean. Towns like Nazareth and Hebron. Olive groves. But they chose war instead.
In 1993, with the Oslo Accords, they were given all of Gaza and 97 percent of the West Bank. Israel would have compensated the remaining 3 percent with their own lands. All the West Bank settlers would have been long gone by now.
Instead, Palestinians chose intifada.
I don't mean this unkindly, but Palestinians seem to be incapable of having effective leadership. They choose Hamas. They choose Islamic Jihad. They choose the Palestinian Authority, one of the most corrupt parties in the world. Back on the day, the chose the PLO - murdering Olympic athletes, hijacking airplanes, causing a civil war in Lebanon, assassinating Prime Ministers in Jordan, supporting the invasion of Kuwait.
I mean, what is there to say. If they had chosen a Gandhi or a MLK, they would have had a state for a long time now. But they don't. They always choose terrorism, violence, corruption, fanaticism. How do you work with this?
Serious question: How do you keep a straight face pretending that someone like Bibi would have EVER allowed the establishment of a Palestinian state of any kind over the past 27 years? Seriously, how do you do it?
i think Netanyahu and Likud are terrible.
Israelis are genuinely stupid for going with this. There are a lot of extremists in Israel. I mean they murdered Yitzhak Rabin for goodness sake. Israelis are not ipso facto wonderful people.
But Palestinians are dumber
They've had numerous chances for a good, independent state. And they've rejected all of them.
I mean, what is there to do? Who the hell do you even negotiate with?
Palestinians have been idiots for 80 years. That's the problem. They think massacring a 1000+ innocent people and kidnapping hundreds of others is a great idea.
Yeah, well, that was a terrible idea and they are paying the consequences
Israelis aren't wonderful, but Palestinians are literally the dumbest people on the planet. They chose this.
How are Palestinians dumber? Bibi literally funds Hamas while elderly Holocaust survivors barely have enough to eat in Israel. That’s smart ?
Do you think Palestinians would ever support Ben Gvir or the right wing Kahanists/extremists and give them money to create settlements in the West Bank? They wouldn’t but Israel playing with fire until it got burned by Hamas
Your assumption is that Palestinians are docile idiots that got played by Netanyahu. And that Hamas is nothing more than a fabrication created by Israel.
Yeah, well, no.
Israelis made a terrible mistake electing this government. And they recognize that now. Netanyahu is polling at 4 percent presently. He'll be done once there are elections again. And there will be an investigation about the security failures that led to 10/7.
But Palestinians? Optimistically, this war ends when Sinwar is dead. Realistically, nothing ends until Palestinians choose some decent leaders. And they've shown no capacity to do so.
Israel has every right to destroy Hamas. Palestinians in Gaza chose war. It's brutal. It's unfair. But this is what Palestinians in Gaza chose for themselves. If you don't like the consequences, maybe don't invade and massacre and rape and kidnap a bunch of innocent people. And maybe choose better leaders. Every death is on the Palestinians in Gaza. They chose poorly - as they always seem to do.
Israel, because it's a democracy and notably nearly 25 percent Arab, will correct itself. But if Palestinians continue to choose Islamic extremists like Hamas or corrupt dinosaurs like the PA, well, things are going to continue to be a little hopeless. It's all up to the Palestinian people.
Easy to justify your pro-Israel views by calling Palestinians stupid but I doubt that they are any more stupid than you or me. All people want the same thing - safety, security, food, housing, jobs, a future for their children. They were offered bad deals - end of story.
They didn't love their children enough to choose peace, apparently.
I hate what is happening in Gaza - but come on. Palestinians are not babies who never had a choice in their whole lives. Don't belittle them by making them that passive and incompetent. They made choices - and those choices have consequences. I'm not excusing everything Israel did - but do you think for one second that any other country would have done things differently than what Israel did after 10/7? If so please point me toward one example.
I think there were other paths that Israel could have taken. Treating Palestinians like they are vermin to be crushed and pushed out of the way has gone pretty well for Israel but is still causing major problems. Jewish people have gotten far by intimidation. If you speak up against Israel you get silenced or doxed. This strategy is not working as well as it did in the past. Who knows what the future holds?
Well obviously Israel is not going to go with the do nothing in response because we deserve it strategy or the now give Palestinians what they want because they sure showed us strategy.
But you actually didn't respond to the what should have Israel done after 10/7 question actually your response was along the lines of why they deserved it.
What does the future hold--more people in Gaza dying.
They should have gone after Hamas leadership before doing anything else.
But wow, that was a pretty blasé final comment. Your indifference to human suffering is fascinating.
I’m not sure I can ever come to understand how people who were trembling on their knees to be saved by the world just 80 years ago could have taken such a vicious “Hold my beer” strategy to new lows, but I guess some people never learn.
Not the previous poster.
The world is not a James Bond movie. I'm sure the multi-millionaire Hamas leadership in Qatar are dead men walking. Mossad will get them eventually, as they did with the terrorists that murdered athletes at the Olympics at Munich. Eichmann etc. Mossad will kill them in the end. It's probably not a great time for Hamas leaders to get on one of their private jets in Doha. The Prigozhin solution is always there.
But it will take time. These are not simple operations.
In the meantime, getting Yahya Sinwar, the head of Hamas in Gaza, is critical. I'm hopeful that military operations end when he's dead
And Israel is right to defend itself. Palestinians in Gaza invaded Israel and did what they did. They chose war. And war is what they're getting.
You expect Israelis to simply take these atrocities? Yeah, not happening. Palestinians have been given their own state several times. Always rejected. Instead they always choose terror. I mean, 80 years of this. How do you possibly negotiate with Palestinians?
Given
Cool, I wonder what your welcome would look like if someone dropped by to take possession of your property tomorrow morning, magnanimously subdivided it, and “gave” about 45% of it back to you (bad news: the house will have to shared).
I suspect we wouldn’t be able to count on you to organize a ticker tape parade in their honor later in the week.
DP. I reject your flawed framing, but to play along, maybe they should be nicer to people who have an even longer claim to the land. Or at least not go for whatever fascistic fanaticism Hamas is selling.
Israelis have a longer claim to the land in the same sense that I have a right to kick out whoever currently lives in my Italian great -grandfather's pre-immigration home.
Nah, it’s much different from your weird analogy.
Because of the whole god given, chosen people fairytale?
No. Because Jews have lived there for 3000 years.
And now now, if you are going to toss the fairy tale take around, you’ll have to do it for Islam and Christianity too.
Raised Catholic, and happy to join you in labeling organized religion in all forms as fairytales.
It does not change the fact that Israel is the ancestral home of Jews and that their rightful claim to the land is clearly and inarguably outlined and documented within the Torah.
Any other people who wish to live within Israel can either choose to live by their rules, or find another place to live.
Israel is free to do whatever it damn wants which seems to be to kill as many Palestinians as possible but in that case Jewish people should stop acting shocked when the rest of the world views Israel as a heartless, cold blooded nation with no soul
This is the most common sense thing I have read about what is going on...and a few years ago it would not all have had to been said, but progressives have distored common sense.
Okay. Two things.
1. It is illogical to say "bad things happen and people get moved all the time" but conclude this with "Israel is here to stay". If things change and people move, they can change for Israel too.
2. "Everyone comes to an accommodation" not by hugs and kisses, but through restoration of rights. There is a reason Jews can reclaim stolen and compensated property in many places in Europe - because people acknowledged that what happened to them was unjust. They weren't told to just get over it. Israel restores pre-1948 property to Jews who can prove ownership. Not to Arabs, mind you. Never to Arabs. You come to an accommodation when the party that wronged you acknowledges the wrong and makes an effort to compensate for the wrong. "Get over it" is not an accommodation.
3. I find it terribly ironic when people parrot the line of "Palestinians were offered their own state on three different occasions!" but you press them for details and turns out they don't know crap about what was actually offered.
DP.
I know exactly what was offered on each occasion and think that the following is inarguably true:
1. The Palestinians will not get a better deal in the future than what they’ve previously been offered.
2. The Palestinian people would be FAR better off today had they accepted any of the previous offers.
By any measure of real world impact, the Palestinian leadership has chosen poorly.
Yes they have.
During decolonization, they were given a very nice state that stretched from the border with Lebanon to the Negev. Hills. Forests, a good coastline on the Mediterranean. Towns like Nazareth and Hebron. Olive groves. But they chose war instead.
In 1993, with the Oslo Accords, they were given all of Gaza and 97 percent of the West Bank. Israel would have compensated the remaining 3 percent with their own lands. All the West Bank settlers would have been long gone by now.
Instead, Palestinians chose intifada.
I don't mean this unkindly, but Palestinians seem to be incapable of having effective leadership. They choose Hamas. They choose Islamic Jihad. They choose the Palestinian Authority, one of the most corrupt parties in the world. Back on the day, the chose the PLO - murdering Olympic athletes, hijacking airplanes, causing a civil war in Lebanon, assassinating Prime Ministers in Jordan, supporting the invasion of Kuwait.
I mean, what is there to say. If they had chosen a Gandhi or a MLK, they would have had a state for a long time now. But they don't. They always choose terrorism, violence, corruption, fanaticism. How do you work with this?
Serious question: How do you keep a straight face pretending that someone like Bibi would have EVER allowed the establishment of a Palestinian state of any kind over the past 27 years? Seriously, how do you do it?
i think Netanyahu and Likud are terrible.
Israelis are genuinely stupid for going with this. There are a lot of extremists in Israel. I mean they murdered Yitzhak Rabin for goodness sake. Israelis are not ipso facto wonderful people.
But Palestinians are dumber
They've had numerous chances for a good, independent state. And they've rejected all of them.
I mean, what is there to do? Who the hell do you even negotiate with?
Palestinians have been idiots for 80 years. That's the problem. They think massacring a 1000+ innocent people and kidnapping hundreds of others is a great idea.
Yeah, well, that was a terrible idea and they are paying the consequences
Israelis aren't wonderful, but Palestinians are literally the dumbest people on the planet. They chose this.
How are Palestinians dumber? Bibi literally funds Hamas while elderly Holocaust survivors barely have enough to eat in Israel. That’s smart ?
Do you think Palestinians would ever support Ben Gvir or the right wing Kahanists/extremists and give them money to create settlements in the West Bank? They wouldn’t but Israel playing with fire until it got burned by Hamas
Your assumption is that Palestinians are docile idiots that got played by Netanyahu. And that Hamas is nothing more than a fabrication created by Israel.
Yeah, well, no.
Israelis made a terrible mistake electing this government. And they recognize that now. Netanyahu is polling at 4 percent presently. He'll be done once there are elections again. And there will be an investigation about the security failures that led to 10/7.
But Palestinians? Optimistically, this war ends when Sinwar is dead. Realistically, nothing ends until Palestinians choose some decent leaders. And they've shown no capacity to do so.
Israel has every right to destroy Hamas. Palestinians in Gaza chose war. It's brutal. It's unfair. But this is what Palestinians in Gaza chose for themselves. If you don't like the consequences, maybe don't invade and massacre and rape and kidnap a bunch of innocent people. And maybe choose better leaders. Every death is on the Palestinians in Gaza. They chose poorly - as they always seem to do.
Israel, because it's a democracy and notably nearly 25 percent Arab, will correct itself. But if Palestinians continue to choose Islamic extremists like Hamas or corrupt dinosaurs like the PA, well, things are going to continue to be a little hopeless. It's all up to the Palestinian people.
Easy to justify your pro-Israel views by calling Palestinians stupid but I doubt that they are any more stupid than you or me. All people want the same thing - safety, security, food, housing, jobs, a future for their children. They were offered bad deals - end of story.
They didn't love their children enough to choose peace, apparently.
I hate what is happening in Gaza - but come on. Palestinians are not babies who never had a choice in their whole lives. Don't belittle them by making them that passive and incompetent. They made choices - and those choices have consequences. I'm not excusing everything Israel did - but do you think for one second that any other country would have done things differently than what Israel did after 10/7? If so please point me toward one example.
I think there were other paths that Israel could have taken. Treating Palestinians like they are vermin to be crushed and pushed out of the way has gone pretty well for Israel but is still causing major problems. Jewish people have gotten far by intimidation. If you speak up against Israel you get silenced or doxed. This strategy is not working as well as it did in the past. Who knows what the future holds?
Well obviously Israel is not going to go with the do nothing in response because we deserve it strategy or the now give Palestinians what they want because they sure showed us strategy.
But you actually didn't respond to the what should have Israel done after 10/7 question actually your response was along the lines of why they deserved it.
What does the future hold--more people in Gaza dying.
They should have gone after Hamas leadership before doing anything else.
But wow, that was a pretty blasé final comment. Your indifference to human suffering is fascinating.
I’m not sure I can ever come to understand how people who were trembling on their knees to be saved by the world just 80 years ago could have taken such a vicious “Hold my beer” strategy to new lows, but I guess some people never learn.
Not the previous poster.
The world is not a James Bond movie. I'm sure the multi-millionaire Hamas leadership in Qatar are dead men walking. Mossad will get them eventually, as they did with the terrorists that murdered athletes at the Olympics at Munich. Eichmann etc. Mossad will kill them in the end. It's probably not a great time for Hamas leaders to get on one of their private jets in Doha. The Prigozhin solution is always there.
But it will take time. These are not simple operations.
In the meantime, getting Yahya Sinwar, the head of Hamas in Gaza, is critical. I'm hopeful that military operations end when he's dead
And Israel is right to defend itself. Palestinians in Gaza invaded Israel and did what they did. They chose war. And war is what they're getting.
You expect Israelis to simply take these atrocities? Yeah, not happening. Palestinians have been given their own state several times. Always rejected. Instead they always choose terror. I mean, 80 years of this. How do you possibly negotiate with Palestinians?
Given
Cool, I wonder what your welcome would look like if someone dropped by to take possession of your property tomorrow morning, magnanimously subdivided it, and “gave” about 45% of it back to you (bad news: the house will have to shared).
I suspect we wouldn’t be able to count on you to organize a ticker tape parade in their honor later in the week.
DP. I reject your flawed framing, but to play along, maybe they should be nicer to people who have an even longer claim to the land. Or at least not go for whatever fascistic fanaticism Hamas is selling.
Israelis have a longer claim to the land in the same sense that I have a right to kick out whoever currently lives in my Italian great -grandfather's pre-immigration home.
Nah, it’s much different from your weird analogy.
Because of the whole god given, chosen people fairytale?
No. Because Jews have lived there for 3000 years.
And now now, if you are going to toss the fairy tale take around, you’ll have to do it for Islam and Christianity too.
Raised Catholic, and happy to join you in labeling organized religion in all forms as fairytales.
Go ahead with that take, but that opinion does nothing to negate Jewish people’s ancestral connection to Israel.
Armenians have an ancestral connection to Artsakh but Israel was happy to supply Azeris with the latest weapons to expel Armenians from their land. Oh well. Only Jewish pain matters, right?
Israel is free to do whatever it damn wants which seems to be to kill as many Palestinians as possible but in that case Jewish people should stop acting shocked when the rest of the world views Israel as a heartless, cold blooded nation with no soul
This is the most common sense thing I have read about what is going on...and a few years ago it would not all have had to been said, but progressives have distored common sense.
Okay. Two things.
1. It is illogical to say "bad things happen and people get moved all the time" but conclude this with "Israel is here to stay". If things change and people move, they can change for Israel too.
2. "Everyone comes to an accommodation" not by hugs and kisses, but through restoration of rights. There is a reason Jews can reclaim stolen and compensated property in many places in Europe - because people acknowledged that what happened to them was unjust. They weren't told to just get over it. Israel restores pre-1948 property to Jews who can prove ownership. Not to Arabs, mind you. Never to Arabs. You come to an accommodation when the party that wronged you acknowledges the wrong and makes an effort to compensate for the wrong. "Get over it" is not an accommodation.
3. I find it terribly ironic when people parrot the line of "Palestinians were offered their own state on three different occasions!" but you press them for details and turns out they don't know crap about what was actually offered.
DP.
I know exactly what was offered on each occasion and think that the following is inarguably true:
1. The Palestinians will not get a better deal in the future than what they’ve previously been offered.
2. The Palestinian people would be FAR better off today had they accepted any of the previous offers.
By any measure of real world impact, the Palestinian leadership has chosen poorly.
Yes they have.
During decolonization, they were given a very nice state that stretched from the border with Lebanon to the Negev. Hills. Forests, a good coastline on the Mediterranean. Towns like Nazareth and Hebron. Olive groves. But they chose war instead.
In 1993, with the Oslo Accords, they were given all of Gaza and 97 percent of the West Bank. Israel would have compensated the remaining 3 percent with their own lands. All the West Bank settlers would have been long gone by now.
Instead, Palestinians chose intifada.
I don't mean this unkindly, but Palestinians seem to be incapable of having effective leadership. They choose Hamas. They choose Islamic Jihad. They choose the Palestinian Authority, one of the most corrupt parties in the world. Back on the day, the chose the PLO - murdering Olympic athletes, hijacking airplanes, causing a civil war in Lebanon, assassinating Prime Ministers in Jordan, supporting the invasion of Kuwait.
I mean, what is there to say. If they had chosen a Gandhi or a MLK, they would have had a state for a long time now. But they don't. They always choose terrorism, violence, corruption, fanaticism. How do you work with this?
Serious question: How do you keep a straight face pretending that someone like Bibi would have EVER allowed the establishment of a Palestinian state of any kind over the past 27 years? Seriously, how do you do it?
i think Netanyahu and Likud are terrible.
Israelis are genuinely stupid for going with this. There are a lot of extremists in Israel. I mean they murdered Yitzhak Rabin for goodness sake. Israelis are not ipso facto wonderful people.
But Palestinians are dumber
They've had numerous chances for a good, independent state. And they've rejected all of them.
I mean, what is there to do? Who the hell do you even negotiate with?
Palestinians have been idiots for 80 years. That's the problem. They think massacring a 1000+ innocent people and kidnapping hundreds of others is a great idea.
Yeah, well, that was a terrible idea and they are paying the consequences
Israelis aren't wonderful, but Palestinians are literally the dumbest people on the planet. They chose this.
How are Palestinians dumber? Bibi literally funds Hamas while elderly Holocaust survivors barely have enough to eat in Israel. That’s smart ?
Do you think Palestinians would ever support Ben Gvir or the right wing Kahanists/extremists and give them money to create settlements in the West Bank? They wouldn’t but Israel playing with fire until it got burned by Hamas
Your assumption is that Palestinians are docile idiots that got played by Netanyahu. And that Hamas is nothing more than a fabrication created by Israel.
Yeah, well, no.
Israelis made a terrible mistake electing this government. And they recognize that now. Netanyahu is polling at 4 percent presently. He'll be done once there are elections again. And there will be an investigation about the security failures that led to 10/7.
But Palestinians? Optimistically, this war ends when Sinwar is dead. Realistically, nothing ends until Palestinians choose some decent leaders. And they've shown no capacity to do so.
Israel has every right to destroy Hamas. Palestinians in Gaza chose war. It's brutal. It's unfair. But this is what Palestinians in Gaza chose for themselves. If you don't like the consequences, maybe don't invade and massacre and rape and kidnap a bunch of innocent people. And maybe choose better leaders. Every death is on the Palestinians in Gaza. They chose poorly - as they always seem to do.
Israel, because it's a democracy and notably nearly 25 percent Arab, will correct itself. But if Palestinians continue to choose Islamic extremists like Hamas or corrupt dinosaurs like the PA, well, things are going to continue to be a little hopeless. It's all up to the Palestinian people.
Easy to justify your pro-Israel views by calling Palestinians stupid but I doubt that they are any more stupid than you or me. All people want the same thing - safety, security, food, housing, jobs, a future for their children. They were offered bad deals - end of story.
They didn't love their children enough to choose peace, apparently.
I hate what is happening in Gaza - but come on. Palestinians are not babies who never had a choice in their whole lives. Don't belittle them by making them that passive and incompetent. They made choices - and those choices have consequences. I'm not excusing everything Israel did - but do you think for one second that any other country would have done things differently than what Israel did after 10/7? If so please point me toward one example.
I think there were other paths that Israel could have taken. Treating Palestinians like they are vermin to be crushed and pushed out of the way has gone pretty well for Israel but is still causing major problems. Jewish people have gotten far by intimidation. If you speak up against Israel you get silenced or doxed. This strategy is not working as well as it did in the past. Who knows what the future holds?
Well obviously Israel is not going to go with the do nothing in response because we deserve it strategy or the now give Palestinians what they want because they sure showed us strategy.
But you actually didn't respond to the what should have Israel done after 10/7 question actually your response was along the lines of why they deserved it.
What does the future hold--more people in Gaza dying.
They should have gone after Hamas leadership before doing anything else.
But wow, that was a pretty blasé final comment. Your indifference to human suffering is fascinating.
I’m not sure I can ever come to understand how people who were trembling on their knees to be saved by the world just 80 years ago could have taken such a vicious “Hold my beer” strategy to new lows, but I guess some people never learn.
Not the previous poster.
The world is not a James Bond movie. I'm sure the multi-millionaire Hamas leadership in Qatar are dead men walking. Mossad will get them eventually, as they did with the terrorists that murdered athletes at the Olympics at Munich. Eichmann etc. Mossad will kill them in the end. It's probably not a great time for Hamas leaders to get on one of their private jets in Doha. The Prigozhin solution is always there.
But it will take time. These are not simple operations.
In the meantime, getting Yahya Sinwar, the head of Hamas in Gaza, is critical. I'm hopeful that military operations end when he's dead
And Israel is right to defend itself. Palestinians in Gaza invaded Israel and did what they did. They chose war. And war is what they're getting.
You expect Israelis to simply take these atrocities? Yeah, not happening. Palestinians have been given their own state several times. Always rejected. Instead they always choose terror. I mean, 80 years of this. How do you possibly negotiate with Palestinians?
Given
Cool, I wonder what your welcome would look like if someone dropped by to take possession of your property tomorrow morning, magnanimously subdivided it, and “gave” about 45% of it back to you (bad news: the house will have to shared).
I suspect we wouldn’t be able to count on you to organize a ticker tape parade in their honor later in the week.
DP. I reject your flawed framing, but to play along, maybe they should be nicer to people who have an even longer claim to the land. Or at least not go for whatever fascistic fanaticism Hamas is selling.
Israelis have a longer claim to the land in the same sense that I have a right to kick out whoever currently lives in my Italian great -grandfather's pre-immigration home.
Nah, it’s much different from your weird analogy.
Because of the whole god given, chosen people fairytale?
No. Because Jews have lived there for 3000 years.
And now now, if you are going to toss the fairy tale take around, you’ll have to do it for Islam and Christianity too.
Raised Catholic, and happy to join you in labeling organized religion in all forms as fairytales.
Go ahead with that take, but that opinion does nothing to negate Jewish people’s ancestral connection to Israel.
I’m not here to dispute that Jews lived in the ME region thousands of years ago, or that a small group remained in the region over time.
I’m here to dispute that more than perhaps 10-15% of the worldwide “Jewish” population alive here in late 2023 is actually descended from the Jews who lived in the ME region thousands of years ago. And that’s true of the Israeli population, too. No more than 10-15% of them descend from the tribe.
Nope. Genetic tests of Ashkenazi Jews, for instance, show an admixture of European and Middle Eastern.
Israel is free to do whatever it damn wants which seems to be to kill as many Palestinians as possible but in that case Jewish people should stop acting shocked when the rest of the world views Israel as a heartless, cold blooded nation with no soul
This is the most common sense thing I have read about what is going on...and a few years ago it would not all have had to been said, but progressives have distored common sense.
Okay. Two things.
1. It is illogical to say "bad things happen and people get moved all the time" but conclude this with "Israel is here to stay". If things change and people move, they can change for Israel too.
2. "Everyone comes to an accommodation" not by hugs and kisses, but through restoration of rights. There is a reason Jews can reclaim stolen and compensated property in many places in Europe - because people acknowledged that what happened to them was unjust. They weren't told to just get over it. Israel restores pre-1948 property to Jews who can prove ownership. Not to Arabs, mind you. Never to Arabs. You come to an accommodation when the party that wronged you acknowledges the wrong and makes an effort to compensate for the wrong. "Get over it" is not an accommodation.
3. I find it terribly ironic when people parrot the line of "Palestinians were offered their own state on three different occasions!" but you press them for details and turns out they don't know crap about what was actually offered.
DP.
I know exactly what was offered on each occasion and think that the following is inarguably true:
1. The Palestinians will not get a better deal in the future than what they’ve previously been offered.
2. The Palestinian people would be FAR better off today had they accepted any of the previous offers.
By any measure of real world impact, the Palestinian leadership has chosen poorly.
Yes they have.
During decolonization, they were given a very nice state that stretched from the border with Lebanon to the Negev. Hills. Forests, a good coastline on the Mediterranean. Towns like Nazareth and Hebron. Olive groves. But they chose war instead.
In 1993, with the Oslo Accords, they were given all of Gaza and 97 percent of the West Bank. Israel would have compensated the remaining 3 percent with their own lands. All the West Bank settlers would have been long gone by now.
Instead, Palestinians chose intifada.
I don't mean this unkindly, but Palestinians seem to be incapable of having effective leadership. They choose Hamas. They choose Islamic Jihad. They choose the Palestinian Authority, one of the most corrupt parties in the world. Back on the day, the chose the PLO - murdering Olympic athletes, hijacking airplanes, causing a civil war in Lebanon, assassinating Prime Ministers in Jordan, supporting the invasion of Kuwait.
I mean, what is there to say. If they had chosen a Gandhi or a MLK, they would have had a state for a long time now. But they don't. They always choose terrorism, violence, corruption, fanaticism. How do you work with this?
Serious question: How do you keep a straight face pretending that someone like Bibi would have EVER allowed the establishment of a Palestinian state of any kind over the past 27 years? Seriously, how do you do it?
i think Netanyahu and Likud are terrible.
Israelis are genuinely stupid for going with this. There are a lot of extremists in Israel. I mean they murdered Yitzhak Rabin for goodness sake. Israelis are not ipso facto wonderful people.
But Palestinians are dumber
They've had numerous chances for a good, independent state. And they've rejected all of them.
I mean, what is there to do? Who the hell do you even negotiate with?
Palestinians have been idiots for 80 years. That's the problem. They think massacring a 1000+ innocent people and kidnapping hundreds of others is a great idea.
Yeah, well, that was a terrible idea and they are paying the consequences
Israelis aren't wonderful, but Palestinians are literally the dumbest people on the planet. They chose this.
How are Palestinians dumber? Bibi literally funds Hamas while elderly Holocaust survivors barely have enough to eat in Israel. That’s smart ?
Do you think Palestinians would ever support Ben Gvir or the right wing Kahanists/extremists and give them money to create settlements in the West Bank? They wouldn’t but Israel playing with fire until it got burned by Hamas
Your assumption is that Palestinians are docile idiots that got played by Netanyahu. And that Hamas is nothing more than a fabrication created by Israel.
Yeah, well, no.
Israelis made a terrible mistake electing this government. And they recognize that now. Netanyahu is polling at 4 percent presently. He'll be done once there are elections again. And there will be an investigation about the security failures that led to 10/7.
But Palestinians? Optimistically, this war ends when Sinwar is dead. Realistically, nothing ends until Palestinians choose some decent leaders. And they've shown no capacity to do so.
Israel has every right to destroy Hamas. Palestinians in Gaza chose war. It's brutal. It's unfair. But this is what Palestinians in Gaza chose for themselves. If you don't like the consequences, maybe don't invade and massacre and rape and kidnap a bunch of innocent people. And maybe choose better leaders. Every death is on the Palestinians in Gaza. They chose poorly - as they always seem to do.
Israel, because it's a democracy and notably nearly 25 percent Arab, will correct itself. But if Palestinians continue to choose Islamic extremists like Hamas or corrupt dinosaurs like the PA, well, things are going to continue to be a little hopeless. It's all up to the Palestinian people.
Easy to justify your pro-Israel views by calling Palestinians stupid but I doubt that they are any more stupid than you or me. All people want the same thing - safety, security, food, housing, jobs, a future for their children. They were offered bad deals - end of story.
They didn't love their children enough to choose peace, apparently.
I hate what is happening in Gaza - but come on. Palestinians are not babies who never had a choice in their whole lives. Don't belittle them by making them that passive and incompetent. They made choices - and those choices have consequences. I'm not excusing everything Israel did - but do you think for one second that any other country would have done things differently than what Israel did after 10/7? If so please point me toward one example.
I think there were other paths that Israel could have taken. Treating Palestinians like they are vermin to be crushed and pushed out of the way has gone pretty well for Israel but is still causing major problems. Jewish people have gotten far by intimidation. If you speak up against Israel you get silenced or doxed. This strategy is not working as well as it did in the past. Who knows what the future holds?
Well obviously Israel is not going to go with the do nothing in response because we deserve it strategy or the now give Palestinians what they want because they sure showed us strategy.
But you actually didn't respond to the what should have Israel done after 10/7 question actually your response was along the lines of why they deserved it.
What does the future hold--more people in Gaza dying.
They should have gone after Hamas leadership before doing anything else.
But wow, that was a pretty blasé final comment. Your indifference to human suffering is fascinating.
I’m not sure I can ever come to understand how people who were trembling on their knees to be saved by the world just 80 years ago could have taken such a vicious “Hold my beer” strategy to new lows, but I guess some people never learn.
Not the previous poster.
The world is not a James Bond movie. I'm sure the multi-millionaire Hamas leadership in Qatar are dead men walking. Mossad will get them eventually, as they did with the terrorists that murdered athletes at the Olympics at Munich. Eichmann etc. Mossad will kill them in the end. It's probably not a great time for Hamas leaders to get on one of their private jets in Doha. The Prigozhin solution is always there.
But it will take time. These are not simple operations.
In the meantime, getting Yahya Sinwar, the head of Hamas in Gaza, is critical. I'm hopeful that military operations end when he's dead
And Israel is right to defend itself. Palestinians in Gaza invaded Israel and did what they did. They chose war. And war is what they're getting.
You expect Israelis to simply take these atrocities? Yeah, not happening. Palestinians have been given their own state several times. Always rejected. Instead they always choose terror. I mean, 80 years of this. How do you possibly negotiate with Palestinians?
Given
Cool, I wonder what your welcome would look like if someone dropped by to take possession of your property tomorrow morning, magnanimously subdivided it, and “gave” about 45% of it back to you (bad news: the house will have to shared).
I suspect we wouldn’t be able to count on you to organize a ticker tape parade in their honor later in the week.
DP. I reject your flawed framing, but to play along, maybe they should be nicer to people who have an even longer claim to the land. Or at least not go for whatever fascistic fanaticism Hamas is selling.
Israelis have a longer claim to the land in the same sense that I have a right to kick out whoever currently lives in my Italian great -grandfather's pre-immigration home.
Nah, it’s much different from your weird analogy.
Because of the whole god given, chosen people fairytale?
No. Because Jews have lived there for 3000 years.
And now now, if you are going to toss the fairy tale take around, you’ll have to do it for Islam and Christianity too.
Raised Catholic, and happy to join you in labeling organized religion in all forms as fairytales.
It does not change the fact that Israel is the ancestral home of Jews and that their rightful claim to the land is clearly and inarguably outlined and documented within the Torah.
Any other people who wish to live within Israel can either choose to live by their rules, or find another place to live.
lol torah
Not a good look to laff at people’s religion, right?
Israel is free to do whatever it damn wants which seems to be to kill as many Palestinians as possible but in that case Jewish people should stop acting shocked when the rest of the world views Israel as a heartless, cold blooded nation with no soul
This is the most common sense thing I have read about what is going on...and a few years ago it would not all have had to been said, but progressives have distored common sense.
Okay. Two things.
1. It is illogical to say "bad things happen and people get moved all the time" but conclude this with "Israel is here to stay". If things change and people move, they can change for Israel too.
2. "Everyone comes to an accommodation" not by hugs and kisses, but through restoration of rights. There is a reason Jews can reclaim stolen and compensated property in many places in Europe - because people acknowledged that what happened to them was unjust. They weren't told to just get over it. Israel restores pre-1948 property to Jews who can prove ownership. Not to Arabs, mind you. Never to Arabs. You come to an accommodation when the party that wronged you acknowledges the wrong and makes an effort to compensate for the wrong. "Get over it" is not an accommodation.
3. I find it terribly ironic when people parrot the line of "Palestinians were offered their own state on three different occasions!" but you press them for details and turns out they don't know crap about what was actually offered.
DP.
I know exactly what was offered on each occasion and think that the following is inarguably true:
1. The Palestinians will not get a better deal in the future than what they’ve previously been offered.
2. The Palestinian people would be FAR better off today had they accepted any of the previous offers.
By any measure of real world impact, the Palestinian leadership has chosen poorly.
Yes they have.
During decolonization, they were given a very nice state that stretched from the border with Lebanon to the Negev. Hills. Forests, a good coastline on the Mediterranean. Towns like Nazareth and Hebron. Olive groves. But they chose war instead.
In 1993, with the Oslo Accords, they were given all of Gaza and 97 percent of the West Bank. Israel would have compensated the remaining 3 percent with their own lands. All the West Bank settlers would have been long gone by now.
Instead, Palestinians chose intifada.
I don't mean this unkindly, but Palestinians seem to be incapable of having effective leadership. They choose Hamas. They choose Islamic Jihad. They choose the Palestinian Authority, one of the most corrupt parties in the world. Back on the day, the chose the PLO - murdering Olympic athletes, hijacking airplanes, causing a civil war in Lebanon, assassinating Prime Ministers in Jordan, supporting the invasion of Kuwait.
I mean, what is there to say. If they had chosen a Gandhi or a MLK, they would have had a state for a long time now. But they don't. They always choose terrorism, violence, corruption, fanaticism. How do you work with this?
Serious question: How do you keep a straight face pretending that someone like Bibi would have EVER allowed the establishment of a Palestinian state of any kind over the past 27 years? Seriously, how do you do it?
i think Netanyahu and Likud are terrible.
Israelis are genuinely stupid for going with this. There are a lot of extremists in Israel. I mean they murdered Yitzhak Rabin for goodness sake. Israelis are not ipso facto wonderful people.
But Palestinians are dumber
They've had numerous chances for a good, independent state. And they've rejected all of them.
I mean, what is there to do? Who the hell do you even negotiate with?
Palestinians have been idiots for 80 years. That's the problem. They think massacring a 1000+ innocent people and kidnapping hundreds of others is a great idea.
Yeah, well, that was a terrible idea and they are paying the consequences
Israelis aren't wonderful, but Palestinians are literally the dumbest people on the planet. They chose this.
How are Palestinians dumber? Bibi literally funds Hamas while elderly Holocaust survivors barely have enough to eat in Israel. That’s smart ?
Do you think Palestinians would ever support Ben Gvir or the right wing Kahanists/extremists and give them money to create settlements in the West Bank? They wouldn’t but Israel playing with fire until it got burned by Hamas
Your assumption is that Palestinians are docile idiots that got played by Netanyahu. And that Hamas is nothing more than a fabrication created by Israel.
Yeah, well, no.
Israelis made a terrible mistake electing this government. And they recognize that now. Netanyahu is polling at 4 percent presently. He'll be done once there are elections again. And there will be an investigation about the security failures that led to 10/7.
But Palestinians? Optimistically, this war ends when Sinwar is dead. Realistically, nothing ends until Palestinians choose some decent leaders. And they've shown no capacity to do so.
Israel has every right to destroy Hamas. Palestinians in Gaza chose war. It's brutal. It's unfair. But this is what Palestinians in Gaza chose for themselves. If you don't like the consequences, maybe don't invade and massacre and rape and kidnap a bunch of innocent people. And maybe choose better leaders. Every death is on the Palestinians in Gaza. They chose poorly - as they always seem to do.
Israel, because it's a democracy and notably nearly 25 percent Arab, will correct itself. But if Palestinians continue to choose Islamic extremists like Hamas or corrupt dinosaurs like the PA, well, things are going to continue to be a little hopeless. It's all up to the Palestinian people.
Easy to justify your pro-Israel views by calling Palestinians stupid but I doubt that they are any more stupid than you or me. All people want the same thing - safety, security, food, housing, jobs, a future for their children. They were offered bad deals - end of story.
They didn't love their children enough to choose peace, apparently.
I hate what is happening in Gaza - but come on. Palestinians are not babies who never had a choice in their whole lives. Don't belittle them by making them that passive and incompetent. They made choices - and those choices have consequences. I'm not excusing everything Israel did - but do you think for one second that any other country would have done things differently than what Israel did after 10/7? If so please point me toward one example.
I think there were other paths that Israel could have taken. Treating Palestinians like they are vermin to be crushed and pushed out of the way has gone pretty well for Israel but is still causing major problems. Jewish people have gotten far by intimidation. If you speak up against Israel you get silenced or doxed. This strategy is not working as well as it did in the past. Who knows what the future holds?
Well obviously Israel is not going to go with the do nothing in response because we deserve it strategy or the now give Palestinians what they want because they sure showed us strategy.
But you actually didn't respond to the what should have Israel done after 10/7 question actually your response was along the lines of why they deserved it.
What does the future hold--more people in Gaza dying.
They should have gone after Hamas leadership before doing anything else.
But wow, that was a pretty blasé final comment. Your indifference to human suffering is fascinating.
I’m not sure I can ever come to understand how people who were trembling on their knees to be saved by the world just 80 years ago could have taken such a vicious “Hold my beer” strategy to new lows, but I guess some people never learn.
Not the previous poster.
The world is not a James Bond movie. I'm sure the multi-millionaire Hamas leadership in Qatar are dead men walking. Mossad will get them eventually, as they did with the terrorists that murdered athletes at the Olympics at Munich. Eichmann etc. Mossad will kill them in the end. It's probably not a great time for Hamas leaders to get on one of their private jets in Doha. The Prigozhin solution is always there.
But it will take time. These are not simple operations.
In the meantime, getting Yahya Sinwar, the head of Hamas in Gaza, is critical. I'm hopeful that military operations end when he's dead
And Israel is right to defend itself. Palestinians in Gaza invaded Israel and did what they did. They chose war. And war is what they're getting.
You expect Israelis to simply take these atrocities? Yeah, not happening. Palestinians have been given their own state several times. Always rejected. Instead they always choose terror. I mean, 80 years of this. How do you possibly negotiate with Palestinians?
Given
Cool, I wonder what your welcome would look like if someone dropped by to take possession of your property tomorrow morning, magnanimously subdivided it, and “gave” about 45% of it back to you (bad news: the house will have to shared).
I suspect we wouldn’t be able to count on you to organize a ticker tape parade in their honor later in the week.
DP. I reject your flawed framing, but to play along, maybe they should be nicer to people who have an even longer claim to the land. Or at least not go for whatever fascistic fanaticism Hamas is selling.
Israelis have a longer claim to the land in the same sense that I have a right to kick out whoever currently lives in my Italian great -grandfather's pre-immigration home.
Nah, it’s much different from your weird analogy.
Because of the whole god given, chosen people fairytale?
No. Because Jews have lived there for 3000 years.
And now now, if you are going to toss the fairy tale take around, you’ll have to do it for Islam and Christianity too.
Raised Catholic, and happy to join you in labeling organized religion in all forms as fairytales.
Go ahead with that take, but that opinion does nothing to negate Jewish people’s ancestral connection to Israel.
Armenians have an ancestral connection to Artsakh but Israel was happy to supply Azeris with the latest weapons to expel Armenians from their land. Oh well. Only Jewish pain matters, right?
Clearly it does not, because most of the world cackles about Jewish pain and suffering.
Israel is free to do whatever it damn wants which seems to be to kill as many Palestinians as possible but in that case Jewish people should stop acting shocked when the rest of the world views Israel as a heartless, cold blooded nation with no soul
This is the most common sense thing I have read about what is going on...and a few years ago it would not all have had to been said, but progressives have distored common sense.
Okay. Two things.
1. It is illogical to say "bad things happen and people get moved all the time" but conclude this with "Israel is here to stay". If things change and people move, they can change for Israel too.
2. "Everyone comes to an accommodation" not by hugs and kisses, but through restoration of rights. There is a reason Jews can reclaim stolen and compensated property in many places in Europe - because people acknowledged that what happened to them was unjust. They weren't told to just get over it. Israel restores pre-1948 property to Jews who can prove ownership. Not to Arabs, mind you. Never to Arabs. You come to an accommodation when the party that wronged you acknowledges the wrong and makes an effort to compensate for the wrong. "Get over it" is not an accommodation.
3. I find it terribly ironic when people parrot the line of "Palestinians were offered their own state on three different occasions!" but you press them for details and turns out they don't know crap about what was actually offered.
DP.
I know exactly what was offered on each occasion and think that the following is inarguably true:
1. The Palestinians will not get a better deal in the future than what they’ve previously been offered.
2. The Palestinian people would be FAR better off today had they accepted any of the previous offers.
By any measure of real world impact, the Palestinian leadership has chosen poorly.
Yes they have.
During decolonization, they were given a very nice state that stretched from the border with Lebanon to the Negev. Hills. Forests, a good coastline on the Mediterranean. Towns like Nazareth and Hebron. Olive groves. But they chose war instead.
In 1993, with the Oslo Accords, they were given all of Gaza and 97 percent of the West Bank. Israel would have compensated the remaining 3 percent with their own lands. All the West Bank settlers would have been long gone by now.
Instead, Palestinians chose intifada.
I don't mean this unkindly, but Palestinians seem to be incapable of having effective leadership. They choose Hamas. They choose Islamic Jihad. They choose the Palestinian Authority, one of the most corrupt parties in the world. Back on the day, the chose the PLO - murdering Olympic athletes, hijacking airplanes, causing a civil war in Lebanon, assassinating Prime Ministers in Jordan, supporting the invasion of Kuwait.
I mean, what is there to say. If they had chosen a Gandhi or a MLK, they would have had a state for a long time now. But they don't. They always choose terrorism, violence, corruption, fanaticism. How do you work with this?
Serious question: How do you keep a straight face pretending that someone like Bibi would have EVER allowed the establishment of a Palestinian state of any kind over the past 27 years? Seriously, how do you do it?
i think Netanyahu and Likud are terrible.
Israelis are genuinely stupid for going with this. There are a lot of extremists in Israel. I mean they murdered Yitzhak Rabin for goodness sake. Israelis are not ipso facto wonderful people.
But Palestinians are dumber
They've had numerous chances for a good, independent state. And they've rejected all of them.
I mean, what is there to do? Who the hell do you even negotiate with?
Palestinians have been idiots for 80 years. That's the problem. They think massacring a 1000+ innocent people and kidnapping hundreds of others is a great idea.
Yeah, well, that was a terrible idea and they are paying the consequences
Israelis aren't wonderful, but Palestinians are literally the dumbest people on the planet. They chose this.
How are Palestinians dumber? Bibi literally funds Hamas while elderly Holocaust survivors barely have enough to eat in Israel. That’s smart ?
Do you think Palestinians would ever support Ben Gvir or the right wing Kahanists/extremists and give them money to create settlements in the West Bank? They wouldn’t but Israel playing with fire until it got burned by Hamas
Your assumption is that Palestinians are docile idiots that got played by Netanyahu. And that Hamas is nothing more than a fabrication created by Israel.
Yeah, well, no.
Israelis made a terrible mistake electing this government. And they recognize that now. Netanyahu is polling at 4 percent presently. He'll be done once there are elections again. And there will be an investigation about the security failures that led to 10/7.
But Palestinians? Optimistically, this war ends when Sinwar is dead. Realistically, nothing ends until Palestinians choose some decent leaders. And they've shown no capacity to do so.
Israel has every right to destroy Hamas. Palestinians in Gaza chose war. It's brutal. It's unfair. But this is what Palestinians in Gaza chose for themselves. If you don't like the consequences, maybe don't invade and massacre and rape and kidnap a bunch of innocent people. And maybe choose better leaders. Every death is on the Palestinians in Gaza. They chose poorly - as they always seem to do.
Israel, because it's a democracy and notably nearly 25 percent Arab, will correct itself. But if Palestinians continue to choose Islamic extremists like Hamas or corrupt dinosaurs like the PA, well, things are going to continue to be a little hopeless. It's all up to the Palestinian people.
Easy to justify your pro-Israel views by calling Palestinians stupid but I doubt that they are any more stupid than you or me. All people want the same thing - safety, security, food, housing, jobs, a future for their children. They were offered bad deals - end of story.
They didn't love their children enough to choose peace, apparently.
I hate what is happening in Gaza - but come on. Palestinians are not babies who never had a choice in their whole lives. Don't belittle them by making them that passive and incompetent. They made choices - and those choices have consequences. I'm not excusing everything Israel did - but do you think for one second that any other country would have done things differently than what Israel did after 10/7? If so please point me toward one example.
I think there were other paths that Israel could have taken. Treating Palestinians like they are vermin to be crushed and pushed out of the way has gone pretty well for Israel but is still causing major problems. Jewish people have gotten far by intimidation. If you speak up against Israel you get silenced or doxed. This strategy is not working as well as it did in the past. Who knows what the future holds?
Well obviously Israel is not going to go with the do nothing in response because we deserve it strategy or the now give Palestinians what they want because they sure showed us strategy.
But you actually didn't respond to the what should have Israel done after 10/7 question actually your response was along the lines of why they deserved it.
What does the future hold--more people in Gaza dying.
They should have gone after Hamas leadership before doing anything else.
But wow, that was a pretty blasé final comment. Your indifference to human suffering is fascinating.
I’m not sure I can ever come to understand how people who were trembling on their knees to be saved by the world just 80 years ago could have taken such a vicious “Hold my beer” strategy to new lows, but I guess some people never learn.
Not the previous poster.
The world is not a James Bond movie. I'm sure the multi-millionaire Hamas leadership in Qatar are dead men walking. Mossad will get them eventually, as they did with the terrorists that murdered athletes at the Olympics at Munich. Eichmann etc. Mossad will kill them in the end. It's probably not a great time for Hamas leaders to get on one of their private jets in Doha. The Prigozhin solution is always there.
But it will take time. These are not simple operations.
In the meantime, getting Yahya Sinwar, the head of Hamas in Gaza, is critical. I'm hopeful that military operations end when he's dead
And Israel is right to defend itself. Palestinians in Gaza invaded Israel and did what they did. They chose war. And war is what they're getting.
You expect Israelis to simply take these atrocities? Yeah, not happening. Palestinians have been given their own state several times. Always rejected. Instead they always choose terror. I mean, 80 years of this. How do you possibly negotiate with Palestinians?
Given
Cool, I wonder what your welcome would look like if someone dropped by to take possession of your property tomorrow morning, magnanimously subdivided it, and “gave” about 45% of it back to you (bad news: the house will have to shared).
I suspect we wouldn’t be able to count on you to organize a ticker tape parade in their honor later in the week.
DP. I reject your flawed framing, but to play along, maybe they should be nicer to people who have an even longer claim to the land. Or at least not go for whatever fascistic fanaticism Hamas is selling.
Israelis have a longer claim to the land in the same sense that I have a right to kick out whoever currently lives in my Italian great -grandfather's pre-immigration home.
Nah, it’s much different from your weird analogy.
Because of the whole god given, chosen people fairytale?
No. Because Jews have lived there for 3000 years.
And now now, if you are going to toss the fairy tale take around, you’ll have to do it for Islam and Christianity too.
American Indians have lived in the Americas for even longer. Do they get to kick out the Europeans? This is a serious question.
Israel is free to do whatever it damn wants which seems to be to kill as many Palestinians as possible but in that case Jewish people should stop acting shocked when the rest of the world views Israel as a heartless, cold blooded nation with no soul
This is the most common sense thing I have read about what is going on...and a few years ago it would not all have had to been said, but progressives have distored common sense.
Okay. Two things.
1. It is illogical to say "bad things happen and people get moved all the time" but conclude this with "Israel is here to stay". If things change and people move, they can change for Israel too.
2. "Everyone comes to an accommodation" not by hugs and kisses, but through restoration of rights. There is a reason Jews can reclaim stolen and compensated property in many places in Europe - because people acknowledged that what happened to them was unjust. They weren't told to just get over it. Israel restores pre-1948 property to Jews who can prove ownership. Not to Arabs, mind you. Never to Arabs. You come to an accommodation when the party that wronged you acknowledges the wrong and makes an effort to compensate for the wrong. "Get over it" is not an accommodation.
3. I find it terribly ironic when people parrot the line of "Palestinians were offered their own state on three different occasions!" but you press them for details and turns out they don't know crap about what was actually offered.
DP.
I know exactly what was offered on each occasion and think that the following is inarguably true:
1. The Palestinians will not get a better deal in the future than what they’ve previously been offered.
2. The Palestinian people would be FAR better off today had they accepted any of the previous offers.
By any measure of real world impact, the Palestinian leadership has chosen poorly.
Yes they have.
During decolonization, they were given a very nice state that stretched from the border with Lebanon to the Negev. Hills. Forests, a good coastline on the Mediterranean. Towns like Nazareth and Hebron. Olive groves. But they chose war instead.
In 1993, with the Oslo Accords, they were given all of Gaza and 97 percent of the West Bank. Israel would have compensated the remaining 3 percent with their own lands. All the West Bank settlers would have been long gone by now.
Instead, Palestinians chose intifada.
I don't mean this unkindly, but Palestinians seem to be incapable of having effective leadership. They choose Hamas. They choose Islamic Jihad. They choose the Palestinian Authority, one of the most corrupt parties in the world. Back on the day, the chose the PLO - murdering Olympic athletes, hijacking airplanes, causing a civil war in Lebanon, assassinating Prime Ministers in Jordan, supporting the invasion of Kuwait.
I mean, what is there to say. If they had chosen a Gandhi or a MLK, they would have had a state for a long time now. But they don't. They always choose terrorism, violence, corruption, fanaticism. How do you work with this?
Serious question: How do you keep a straight face pretending that someone like Bibi would have EVER allowed the establishment of a Palestinian state of any kind over the past 27 years? Seriously, how do you do it?
i think Netanyahu and Likud are terrible.
Israelis are genuinely stupid for going with this. There are a lot of extremists in Israel. I mean they murdered Yitzhak Rabin for goodness sake. Israelis are not ipso facto wonderful people.
But Palestinians are dumber
They've had numerous chances for a good, independent state. And they've rejected all of them.
I mean, what is there to do? Who the hell do you even negotiate with?
Palestinians have been idiots for 80 years. That's the problem. They think massacring a 1000+ innocent people and kidnapping hundreds of others is a great idea.
Yeah, well, that was a terrible idea and they are paying the consequences
Israelis aren't wonderful, but Palestinians are literally the dumbest people on the planet. They chose this.
How are Palestinians dumber? Bibi literally funds Hamas while elderly Holocaust survivors barely have enough to eat in Israel. That’s smart ?
Do you think Palestinians would ever support Ben Gvir or the right wing Kahanists/extremists and give them money to create settlements in the West Bank? They wouldn’t but Israel playing with fire until it got burned by Hamas
Your assumption is that Palestinians are docile idiots that got played by Netanyahu. And that Hamas is nothing more than a fabrication created by Israel.
Yeah, well, no.
Israelis made a terrible mistake electing this government. And they recognize that now. Netanyahu is polling at 4 percent presently. He'll be done once there are elections again. And there will be an investigation about the security failures that led to 10/7.
But Palestinians? Optimistically, this war ends when Sinwar is dead. Realistically, nothing ends until Palestinians choose some decent leaders. And they've shown no capacity to do so.
Israel has every right to destroy Hamas. Palestinians in Gaza chose war. It's brutal. It's unfair. But this is what Palestinians in Gaza chose for themselves. If you don't like the consequences, maybe don't invade and massacre and rape and kidnap a bunch of innocent people. And maybe choose better leaders. Every death is on the Palestinians in Gaza. They chose poorly - as they always seem to do.
Israel, because it's a democracy and notably nearly 25 percent Arab, will correct itself. But if Palestinians continue to choose Islamic extremists like Hamas or corrupt dinosaurs like the PA, well, things are going to continue to be a little hopeless. It's all up to the Palestinian people.
Easy to justify your pro-Israel views by calling Palestinians stupid but I doubt that they are any more stupid than you or me. All people want the same thing - safety, security, food, housing, jobs, a future for their children. They were offered bad deals - end of story.
They didn't love their children enough to choose peace, apparently.
I hate what is happening in Gaza - but come on. Palestinians are not babies who never had a choice in their whole lives. Don't belittle them by making them that passive and incompetent. They made choices - and those choices have consequences. I'm not excusing everything Israel did - but do you think for one second that any other country would have done things differently than what Israel did after 10/7? If so please point me toward one example.
I think there were other paths that Israel could have taken. Treating Palestinians like they are vermin to be crushed and pushed out of the way has gone pretty well for Israel but is still causing major problems. Jewish people have gotten far by intimidation. If you speak up against Israel you get silenced or doxed. This strategy is not working as well as it did in the past. Who knows what the future holds?
Well obviously Israel is not going to go with the do nothing in response because we deserve it strategy or the now give Palestinians what they want because they sure showed us strategy.
But you actually didn't respond to the what should have Israel done after 10/7 question actually your response was along the lines of why they deserved it.
What does the future hold--more people in Gaza dying.
They should have gone after Hamas leadership before doing anything else.
But wow, that was a pretty blasé final comment. Your indifference to human suffering is fascinating.
I’m not sure I can ever come to understand how people who were trembling on their knees to be saved by the world just 80 years ago could have taken such a vicious “Hold my beer” strategy to new lows, but I guess some people never learn.
Not the previous poster.
The world is not a James Bond movie. I'm sure the multi-millionaire Hamas leadership in Qatar are dead men walking. Mossad will get them eventually, as they did with the terrorists that murdered athletes at the Olympics at Munich. Eichmann etc. Mossad will kill them in the end. It's probably not a great time for Hamas leaders to get on one of their private jets in Doha. The Prigozhin solution is always there.
But it will take time. These are not simple operations.
In the meantime, getting Yahya Sinwar, the head of Hamas in Gaza, is critical. I'm hopeful that military operations end when he's dead
And Israel is right to defend itself. Palestinians in Gaza invaded Israel and did what they did. They chose war. And war is what they're getting.
You expect Israelis to simply take these atrocities? Yeah, not happening. Palestinians have been given their own state several times. Always rejected. Instead they always choose terror. I mean, 80 years of this. How do you possibly negotiate with Palestinians?
Given
Cool, I wonder what your welcome would look like if someone dropped by to take possession of your property tomorrow morning, magnanimously subdivided it, and “gave” about 45% of it back to you (bad news: the house will have to shared).
I suspect we wouldn’t be able to count on you to organize a ticker tape parade in their honor later in the week.
DP. I reject your flawed framing, but to play along, maybe they should be nicer to people who have an even longer claim to the land. Or at least not go for whatever fascistic fanaticism Hamas is selling.
Israelis have a longer claim to the land in the same sense that I have a right to kick out whoever currently lives in my Italian great -grandfather's pre-immigration home.
Nah, it’s much different from your weird analogy.
Because of the whole god given, chosen people fairytale?
No. Because Jews have lived there for 3000 years.
And now now, if you are going to toss the fairy tale take around, you’ll have to do it for Islam and Christianity too.
American Indians have lived in the Americas for even longer. Do they get to kick out the Europeans? This is a serious question.
American Indians were given reservations, sometimes. As for kicking out Europeans, well it is complicated. For some, the answer should be “yes.” But for too many privileged white Americans, it’s too often about “it’s muh land now.”
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