Israel is free to do whatever it damn wants which seems to be to kill as many Palestinians as possible but in that case Jewish people should stop acting shocked when the rest of the world views Israel as a heartless, cold blooded nation with no soul
This is the most common sense thing I have read about what is going on...and a few years ago it would not all have had to been said, but progressives have distored common sense.
Okay. Two things.
1. It is illogical to say "bad things happen and people get moved all the time" but conclude this with "Israel is here to stay". If things change and people move, they can change for Israel too.
2. "Everyone comes to an accommodation" not by hugs and kisses, but through restoration of rights. There is a reason Jews can reclaim stolen and compensated property in many places in Europe - because people acknowledged that what happened to them was unjust. They weren't told to just get over it. Israel restores pre-1948 property to Jews who can prove ownership. Not to Arabs, mind you. Never to Arabs. You come to an accommodation when the party that wronged you acknowledges the wrong and makes an effort to compensate for the wrong. "Get over it" is not an accommodation.
3. I find it terribly ironic when people parrot the line of "Palestinians were offered their own state on three different occasions!" but you press them for details and turns out they don't know crap about what was actually offered.
DP.
I know exactly what was offered on each occasion and think that the following is inarguably true:
1. The Palestinians will not get a better deal in the future than what they’ve previously been offered.
2. The Palestinian people would be FAR better off today had they accepted any of the previous offers.
By any measure of real world impact, the Palestinian leadership has chosen poorly.
Yes they have.
During decolonization, they were given a very nice state that stretched from the border with Lebanon to the Negev. Hills. Forests, a good coastline on the Mediterranean. Towns like Nazareth and Hebron. Olive groves. But they chose war instead.
In 1993, with the Oslo Accords, they were given all of Gaza and 97 percent of the West Bank. Israel would have compensated the remaining 3 percent with their own lands. All the West Bank settlers would have been long gone by now.
Instead, Palestinians chose intifada.
I don't mean this unkindly, but Palestinians seem to be incapable of having effective leadership. They choose Hamas. They choose Islamic Jihad. They choose the Palestinian Authority, one of the most corrupt parties in the world. Back on the day, the chose the PLO - murdering Olympic athletes, hijacking airplanes, causing a civil war in Lebanon, assassinating Prime Ministers in Jordan, supporting the invasion of Kuwait.
I mean, what is there to say. If they had chosen a Gandhi or a MLK, they would have had a state for a long time now. But they don't. They always choose terrorism, violence, corruption, fanaticism. How do you work with this?
Serious question: How do you keep a straight face pretending that someone like Bibi would have EVER allowed the establishment of a Palestinian state of any kind over the past 27 years? Seriously, how do you do it?
i think Netanyahu and Likud are terrible.
Israelis are genuinely stupid for going with this. There are a lot of extremists in Israel. I mean they murdered Yitzhak Rabin for goodness sake. Israelis are not ipso facto wonderful people.
But Palestinians are dumber
They've had numerous chances for a good, independent state. And they've rejected all of them.
I mean, what is there to do? Who the hell do you even negotiate with?
Palestinians have been idiots for 80 years. That's the problem. They think massacring a 1000+ innocent people and kidnapping hundreds of others is a great idea.
Yeah, well, that was a terrible idea and they are paying the consequences
Israelis aren't wonderful, but Palestinians are literally the dumbest people on the planet. They chose this.
How are Palestinians dumber? Bibi literally funds Hamas while elderly Holocaust survivors barely have enough to eat in Israel. That’s smart ?
Do you think Palestinians would ever support Ben Gvir or the right wing Kahanists/extremists and give them money to create settlements in the West Bank? They wouldn’t but Israel playing with fire until it got burned by Hamas
Your assumption is that Palestinians are docile idiots that got played by Netanyahu. And that Hamas is nothing more than a fabrication created by Israel.
Yeah, well, no.
Israelis made a terrible mistake electing this government. And they recognize that now. Netanyahu is polling at 4 percent presently. He'll be done once there are elections again. And there will be an investigation about the security failures that led to 10/7.
But Palestinians? Optimistically, this war ends when Sinwar is dead. Realistically, nothing ends until Palestinians choose some decent leaders. And they've shown no capacity to do so.
Israel has every right to destroy Hamas. Palestinians in Gaza chose war. It's brutal. It's unfair. But this is what Palestinians in Gaza chose for themselves. If you don't like the consequences, maybe don't invade and massacre and rape and kidnap a bunch of innocent people. And maybe choose better leaders. Every death is on the Palestinians in Gaza. They chose poorly - as they always seem to do.
Israel, because it's a democracy and notably nearly 25 percent Arab, will correct itself. But if Palestinians continue to choose Islamic extremists like Hamas or corrupt dinosaurs like the PA, well, things are going to continue to be a little hopeless. It's all up to the Palestinian people.
Easy to justify your pro-Israel views by calling Palestinians stupid but I doubt that they are any more stupid than you or me. All people want the same thing - safety, security, food, housing, jobs, a future for their children. They were offered bad deals - end of story.
They didn't love their children enough to choose peace, apparently.
I hate what is happening in Gaza - but come on. Palestinians are not babies who never had a choice in their whole lives. Don't belittle them by making them that passive and incompetent. They made choices - and those choices have consequences. I'm not excusing everything Israel did - but do you think for one second that any other country would have done things differently than what Israel did after 10/7? If so please point me toward one example.
I think there were other paths that Israel could have taken. Treating Palestinians like they are vermin to be crushed and pushed out of the way has gone pretty well for Israel but is still causing major problems. Jewish people have gotten far by intimidation. If you speak up against Israel you get silenced or doxed. This strategy is not working as well as it did in the past. Who knows what the future holds?
Well obviously Israel is not going to go with the do nothing in response because we deserve it strategy or the now give Palestinians what they want because they sure showed us strategy.
But you actually didn't respond to the what should have Israel done after 10/7 question actually your response was along the lines of why they deserved it.
What does the future hold--more people in Gaza dying.
They should have gone after Hamas leadership before doing anything else.
But wow, that was a pretty blasé final comment. Your indifference to human suffering is fascinating.
I’m not sure I can ever come to understand how people who were trembling on their knees to be saved by the world just 80 years ago could have taken such a vicious “Hold my beer” strategy to new lows, but I guess some people never learn.
Not the previous poster.
The world is not a James Bond movie. I'm sure the multi-millionaire Hamas leadership in Qatar are dead men walking. Mossad will get them eventually, as they did with the terrorists that murdered athletes at the Olympics at Munich. Eichmann etc. Mossad will kill them in the end. It's probably not a great time for Hamas leaders to get on one of their private jets in Doha. The Prigozhin solution is always there.
But it will take time. These are not simple operations.
In the meantime, getting Yahya Sinwar, the head of Hamas in Gaza, is critical. I'm hopeful that military operations end when he's dead
And Israel is right to defend itself. Palestinians in Gaza invaded Israel and did what they did. They chose war. And war is what they're getting.
You expect Israelis to simply take these atrocities? Yeah, not happening. Palestinians have been given their own state several times. Always rejected. Instead they always choose terror. I mean, 80 years of this. How do you possibly negotiate with Palestinians?
Given
Cool, I wonder what your welcome would look like if someone dropped by to take possession of your property tomorrow morning, magnanimously subdivided it, and “gave” about 45% of it back to you (bad news: the house will have to shared).
I suspect we wouldn’t be able to count on you to organize a ticker tape parade in their honor later in the week.
1947 was the decolonization era. There weren't any perfect solutions. You saw it in India. The creation of India, Pakistan, and Bangladesh was not a wonderful time. You saw it in Indochina. Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos had thirty years of tragedy. You saw it in Africa. Zimbabwe, Congo, and many other places
But that was 70 years ago.
Palestinians have had great opportunities for their own state. That 1947 country is a very good country in the post-imperial era.
But they choose no. As they always do. Same in 1993.
I mean, what they hell with Palestinians. They could have had their own country many times over. Instead they reject every deal, they invade Israel and murder and torture more than a thousand people.
I despise Netanyahu and the settlers. But Palestinians are absolute idiots. I will never sympathize with them. You know, maybe it was a poor decision to invade Israel and kill a bunch of people, rape them, torture them, take them hostage. Zero sympathy.
Invading Israel was a very dumb move
Why should they agree to get back only part of their land?
Anonymous wrote:People are acting like those who oppose the IDF's actions are somehow pro-Hamas. We are not. October 7th was evil. Horrifically so. But what is going on now? Also evil. Scorched earth warfare is evil. Killing civilians is evil. Letting babies die in hospitals is evil. Setting food supplies on fire is evil. Every rational person was filled with grief and outrage at the straight up demonic acts committed on October 7th. But that doesn't mean it's 100% okay to do whatever you want in retaliation with no regard for innocent human life.
IDF was never applying “scorched earth warfare.” And it is hardly bombing anything anymore, other than drone strikes on terrorists who surface above ground. The IDF shows more regard for human life than its psychopathic enemies would in 1,000 lifetimes.
Yes, yes, killing women sheltering in a Catholic Church and shooting dead at point blank range a journalist documenting the dead babies killed by the IDF.
HUGE regard for innocent human life.
No idea about those allegations. This is a hugely stressful urban warfare environment against a sadistic enemy that turned Gaza into the world’s largest military fortification. Israel is fighting with one hand tied behind its back and exposing its soldiers to greater risk as a result of US instructions. Its soldiers are human too.
Now the Pope and the Associated Press are lying (the Pope spoke on the church murders this morning, and the AP has also reported on the church killings and the journalist assassination), joining the U.N., the Irish, and anyone who expresses concern for the atrocities occurring in Gaza since 10/7 (and who also expressed outrage for the atrocities that occurred in Israel on 10/7) as unreliable sources.
FFS, do you hear yourself? What level of dishonesty is too far for you?
The IDF isn’t fighting with one hand behind its back. It’s fighting with an insurmountable set of advantages gifted by America. GTFOH with this largest military fortification nonsense, too. It’s just that the guiding principle of your military is vengeance, your personnel is comprised of amateurs who are scared to fight on level footing, they are poorly led, and they are operating without any pretense of accountability.
Word salad.
Genocidal White Supremacist says what?
What a strange, baseless accusation.
Didn’t see anything after “what”.
Checks out.
Nope. It’s impossible to respond to a word salad rant. But ok, here’s one thing. A “level footing” against Hamas would be hiding behind women and children, as Hamas does, or hiding in billions of dollars of tunnels, as Hamas does. No need to play by psychopathic terrorists’ rules, right?
Hamas sucks. No like. Down with Hamas. Too much death. Also down with bad IDF.
Is that less word salad-y for you? I mean, I know it doesn’t fit your attempt to shout down posts you don’t like as “crazy”. But otherwise OK?
Israel is free to do whatever it damn wants which seems to be to kill as many Palestinians as possible but in that case Jewish people should stop acting shocked when the rest of the world views Israel as a heartless, cold blooded nation with no soul
This is the most common sense thing I have read about what is going on...and a few years ago it would not all have had to been said, but progressives have distored common sense.
Okay. Two things.
1. It is illogical to say "bad things happen and people get moved all the time" but conclude this with "Israel is here to stay". If things change and people move, they can change for Israel too.
2. "Everyone comes to an accommodation" not by hugs and kisses, but through restoration of rights. There is a reason Jews can reclaim stolen and compensated property in many places in Europe - because people acknowledged that what happened to them was unjust. They weren't told to just get over it. Israel restores pre-1948 property to Jews who can prove ownership. Not to Arabs, mind you. Never to Arabs. You come to an accommodation when the party that wronged you acknowledges the wrong and makes an effort to compensate for the wrong. "Get over it" is not an accommodation.
3. I find it terribly ironic when people parrot the line of "Palestinians were offered their own state on three different occasions!" but you press them for details and turns out they don't know crap about what was actually offered.
DP.
I know exactly what was offered on each occasion and think that the following is inarguably true:
1. The Palestinians will not get a better deal in the future than what they’ve previously been offered.
2. The Palestinian people would be FAR better off today had they accepted any of the previous offers.
By any measure of real world impact, the Palestinian leadership has chosen poorly.
Yes they have.
During decolonization, they were given a very nice state that stretched from the border with Lebanon to the Negev. Hills. Forests, a good coastline on the Mediterranean. Towns like Nazareth and Hebron. Olive groves. But they chose war instead.
In 1993, with the Oslo Accords, they were given all of Gaza and 97 percent of the West Bank. Israel would have compensated the remaining 3 percent with their own lands. All the West Bank settlers would have been long gone by now.
Instead, Palestinians chose intifada.
I don't mean this unkindly, but Palestinians seem to be incapable of having effective leadership. They choose Hamas. They choose Islamic Jihad. They choose the Palestinian Authority, one of the most corrupt parties in the world. Back on the day, the chose the PLO - murdering Olympic athletes, hijacking airplanes, causing a civil war in Lebanon, assassinating Prime Ministers in Jordan, supporting the invasion of Kuwait.
I mean, what is there to say. If they had chosen a Gandhi or a MLK, they would have had a state for a long time now. But they don't. They always choose terrorism, violence, corruption, fanaticism. How do you work with this?
Serious question: How do you keep a straight face pretending that someone like Bibi would have EVER allowed the establishment of a Palestinian state of any kind over the past 27 years? Seriously, how do you do it?
i think Netanyahu and Likud are terrible.
Israelis are genuinely stupid for going with this. There are a lot of extremists in Israel. I mean they murdered Yitzhak Rabin for goodness sake. Israelis are not ipso facto wonderful people.
But Palestinians are dumber
They've had numerous chances for a good, independent state. And they've rejected all of them.
I mean, what is there to do? Who the hell do you even negotiate with?
Palestinians have been idiots for 80 years. That's the problem. They think massacring a 1000+ innocent people and kidnapping hundreds of others is a great idea.
Yeah, well, that was a terrible idea and they are paying the consequences
Israelis aren't wonderful, but Palestinians are literally the dumbest people on the planet. They chose this.
How are Palestinians dumber? Bibi literally funds Hamas while elderly Holocaust survivors barely have enough to eat in Israel. That’s smart ?
Do you think Palestinians would ever support Ben Gvir or the right wing Kahanists/extremists and give them money to create settlements in the West Bank? They wouldn’t but Israel playing with fire until it got burned by Hamas
Your assumption is that Palestinians are docile idiots that got played by Netanyahu. And that Hamas is nothing more than a fabrication created by Israel.
Yeah, well, no.
Israelis made a terrible mistake electing this government. And they recognize that now. Netanyahu is polling at 4 percent presently. He'll be done once there are elections again. And there will be an investigation about the security failures that led to 10/7.
But Palestinians? Optimistically, this war ends when Sinwar is dead. Realistically, nothing ends until Palestinians choose some decent leaders. And they've shown no capacity to do so.
Israel has every right to destroy Hamas. Palestinians in Gaza chose war. It's brutal. It's unfair. But this is what Palestinians in Gaza chose for themselves. If you don't like the consequences, maybe don't invade and massacre and rape and kidnap a bunch of innocent people. And maybe choose better leaders. Every death is on the Palestinians in Gaza. They chose poorly - as they always seem to do.
Israel, because it's a democracy and notably nearly 25 percent Arab, will correct itself. But if Palestinians continue to choose Islamic extremists like Hamas or corrupt dinosaurs like the PA, well, things are going to continue to be a little hopeless. It's all up to the Palestinian people.
Easy to justify your pro-Israel views by calling Palestinians stupid but I doubt that they are any more stupid than you or me. All people want the same thing - safety, security, food, housing, jobs, a future for their children. They were offered bad deals - end of story.
They didn't love their children enough to choose peace, apparently.
I hate what is happening in Gaza - but come on. Palestinians are not babies who never had a choice in their whole lives. Don't belittle them by making them that passive and incompetent. They made choices - and those choices have consequences. I'm not excusing everything Israel did - but do you think for one second that any other country would have done things differently than what Israel did after 10/7? If so please point me toward one example.
I think there were other paths that Israel could have taken. Treating Palestinians like they are vermin to be crushed and pushed out of the way has gone pretty well for Israel but is still causing major problems. Jewish people have gotten far by intimidation. If you speak up against Israel you get silenced or doxed. This strategy is not working as well as it did in the past. Who knows what the future holds?
Well obviously Israel is not going to go with the do nothing in response because we deserve it strategy or the now give Palestinians what they want because they sure showed us strategy.
But you actually didn't respond to the what should have Israel done after 10/7 question actually your response was along the lines of why they deserved it.
What does the future hold--more people in Gaza dying.
They should have gone after Hamas leadership before doing anything else.
But wow, that was a pretty blasé final comment. Your indifference to human suffering is fascinating.
I’m not sure I can ever come to understand how people who were trembling on their knees to be saved by the world just 80 years ago could have taken such a vicious “Hold my beer” strategy to new lows, but I guess some people never learn.
Not the previous poster.
The world is not a James Bond movie. I'm sure the multi-millionaire Hamas leadership in Qatar are dead men walking. Mossad will get them eventually, as they did with the terrorists that murdered athletes at the Olympics at Munich. Eichmann etc. Mossad will kill them in the end. It's probably not a great time for Hamas leaders to get on one of their private jets in Doha. The Prigozhin solution is always there.
But it will take time. These are not simple operations.
In the meantime, getting Yahya Sinwar, the head of Hamas in Gaza, is critical. I'm hopeful that military operations end when he's dead
And Israel is right to defend itself. Palestinians in Gaza invaded Israel and did what they did. They chose war. And war is what they're getting.
You expect Israelis to simply take these atrocities? Yeah, not happening. Palestinians have been given their own state several times. Always rejected. Instead they always choose terror. I mean, 80 years of this. How do you possibly negotiate with Palestinians?
Given
Cool, I wonder what your welcome would look like if someone dropped by to take possession of your property tomorrow morning, magnanimously subdivided it, and “gave” about 45% of it back to you (bad news: the house will have to shared).
I suspect we wouldn’t be able to count on you to organize a ticker tape parade in their honor later in the week.
DP. I reject your flawed framing, but to play along, maybe they should be nicer to people who have an even longer claim to the land. Or at least not go for whatever fascistic fanaticism Hamas is selling.
Israelis have a longer claim to the land in the same sense that I have a right to kick out whoever currently lives in my Italian great -grandfather's pre-immigration home.
Anonymous wrote:People are acting like those who oppose the IDF's actions are somehow pro-Hamas. We are not. October 7th was evil. Horrifically so. But what is going on now? Also evil. Scorched earth warfare is evil. Killing civilians is evil. Letting babies die in hospitals is evil. Setting food supplies on fire is evil. Every rational person was filled with grief and outrage at the straight up demonic acts committed on October 7th. But that doesn't mean it's 100% okay to do whatever you want in retaliation with no regard for innocent human life.
IDF was never applying “scorched earth warfare.” And it is hardly bombing anything anymore, other than drone strikes on terrorists who surface above ground. The IDF shows more regard for human life than its psychopathic enemies would in 1,000 lifetimes.
Yes, yes, killing women sheltering in a Catholic Church and shooting dead at point blank range a journalist documenting the dead babies killed by the IDF.
HUGE regard for innocent human life.
No idea about those allegations. This is a hugely stressful urban warfare environment against a sadistic enemy that turned Gaza into the world’s largest military fortification. Israel is fighting with one hand tied behind its back and exposing its soldiers to greater risk as a result of US instructions. Its soldiers are human too.
Now the Pope and the Associated Press are lying (the Pope spoke on the church murders this morning, and the AP has also reported on the church killings and the journalist assassination), joining the U.N., the Irish, and anyone who expresses concern for the atrocities occurring in Gaza since 10/7 (and who also expressed outrage for the atrocities that occurred in Israel on 10/7) as unreliable sources.
FFS, do you hear yourself? What level of dishonesty is too far for you?
The IDF isn’t fighting with one hand behind its back. It’s fighting with an insurmountable set of advantages gifted by America. GTFOH with this largest military fortification nonsense, too. It’s just that the guiding principle of your military is vengeance, your personnel is comprised of amateurs who are scared to fight on level footing, they are poorly led, and they are operating without any pretense of accountability.
Word salad.
Genocidal White Supremacist says what?
What a strange, baseless accusation.
Didn’t see anything after “what”.
Checks out.
Nope. It’s impossible to respond to a word salad rant. But ok, here’s one thing. A “level footing” against Hamas would be hiding behind women and children, as Hamas does, or hiding in billions of dollars of tunnels, as Hamas does. No need to play by psychopathic terrorists’ rules, right?
Hamas sucks. No like. Down with Hamas. Too much death. Also down with bad IDF.
Is that less word salad-y for you? I mean, I know it doesn’t fit your attempt to shout down posts you don’t like as “crazy”. But otherwise OK?
Hey bro, it’s your post. You say “down with bad IDF.” I don’t see it that way. But you do you.
Israel is free to do whatever it damn wants which seems to be to kill as many Palestinians as possible but in that case Jewish people should stop acting shocked when the rest of the world views Israel as a heartless, cold blooded nation with no soul
This is the most common sense thing I have read about what is going on...and a few years ago it would not all have had to been said, but progressives have distored common sense.
Okay. Two things.
1. It is illogical to say "bad things happen and people get moved all the time" but conclude this with "Israel is here to stay". If things change and people move, they can change for Israel too.
2. "Everyone comes to an accommodation" not by hugs and kisses, but through restoration of rights. There is a reason Jews can reclaim stolen and compensated property in many places in Europe - because people acknowledged that what happened to them was unjust. They weren't told to just get over it. Israel restores pre-1948 property to Jews who can prove ownership. Not to Arabs, mind you. Never to Arabs. You come to an accommodation when the party that wronged you acknowledges the wrong and makes an effort to compensate for the wrong. "Get over it" is not an accommodation.
3. I find it terribly ironic when people parrot the line of "Palestinians were offered their own state on three different occasions!" but you press them for details and turns out they don't know crap about what was actually offered.
DP.
I know exactly what was offered on each occasion and think that the following is inarguably true:
1. The Palestinians will not get a better deal in the future than what they’ve previously been offered.
2. The Palestinian people would be FAR better off today had they accepted any of the previous offers.
By any measure of real world impact, the Palestinian leadership has chosen poorly.
Yes they have.
During decolonization, they were given a very nice state that stretched from the border with Lebanon to the Negev. Hills. Forests, a good coastline on the Mediterranean. Towns like Nazareth and Hebron. Olive groves. But they chose war instead.
In 1993, with the Oslo Accords, they were given all of Gaza and 97 percent of the West Bank. Israel would have compensated the remaining 3 percent with their own lands. All the West Bank settlers would have been long gone by now.
Instead, Palestinians chose intifada.
I don't mean this unkindly, but Palestinians seem to be incapable of having effective leadership. They choose Hamas. They choose Islamic Jihad. They choose the Palestinian Authority, one of the most corrupt parties in the world. Back on the day, the chose the PLO - murdering Olympic athletes, hijacking airplanes, causing a civil war in Lebanon, assassinating Prime Ministers in Jordan, supporting the invasion of Kuwait.
I mean, what is there to say. If they had chosen a Gandhi or a MLK, they would have had a state for a long time now. But they don't. They always choose terrorism, violence, corruption, fanaticism. How do you work with this?
Serious question: How do you keep a straight face pretending that someone like Bibi would have EVER allowed the establishment of a Palestinian state of any kind over the past 27 years? Seriously, how do you do it?
i think Netanyahu and Likud are terrible.
Israelis are genuinely stupid for going with this. There are a lot of extremists in Israel. I mean they murdered Yitzhak Rabin for goodness sake. Israelis are not ipso facto wonderful people.
But Palestinians are dumber
They've had numerous chances for a good, independent state. And they've rejected all of them.
I mean, what is there to do? Who the hell do you even negotiate with?
Palestinians have been idiots for 80 years. That's the problem. They think massacring a 1000+ innocent people and kidnapping hundreds of others is a great idea.
Yeah, well, that was a terrible idea and they are paying the consequences
Israelis aren't wonderful, but Palestinians are literally the dumbest people on the planet. They chose this.
How are Palestinians dumber? Bibi literally funds Hamas while elderly Holocaust survivors barely have enough to eat in Israel. That’s smart ?
Do you think Palestinians would ever support Ben Gvir or the right wing Kahanists/extremists and give them money to create settlements in the West Bank? They wouldn’t but Israel playing with fire until it got burned by Hamas
Your assumption is that Palestinians are docile idiots that got played by Netanyahu. And that Hamas is nothing more than a fabrication created by Israel.
Yeah, well, no.
Israelis made a terrible mistake electing this government. And they recognize that now. Netanyahu is polling at 4 percent presently. He'll be done once there are elections again. And there will be an investigation about the security failures that led to 10/7.
But Palestinians? Optimistically, this war ends when Sinwar is dead. Realistically, nothing ends until Palestinians choose some decent leaders. And they've shown no capacity to do so.
Israel has every right to destroy Hamas. Palestinians in Gaza chose war. It's brutal. It's unfair. But this is what Palestinians in Gaza chose for themselves. If you don't like the consequences, maybe don't invade and massacre and rape and kidnap a bunch of innocent people. And maybe choose better leaders. Every death is on the Palestinians in Gaza. They chose poorly - as they always seem to do.
Israel, because it's a democracy and notably nearly 25 percent Arab, will correct itself. But if Palestinians continue to choose Islamic extremists like Hamas or corrupt dinosaurs like the PA, well, things are going to continue to be a little hopeless. It's all up to the Palestinian people.
Easy to justify your pro-Israel views by calling Palestinians stupid but I doubt that they are any more stupid than you or me. All people want the same thing - safety, security, food, housing, jobs, a future for their children. They were offered bad deals - end of story.
They didn't love their children enough to choose peace, apparently.
I hate what is happening in Gaza - but come on. Palestinians are not babies who never had a choice in their whole lives. Don't belittle them by making them that passive and incompetent. They made choices - and those choices have consequences. I'm not excusing everything Israel did - but do you think for one second that any other country would have done things differently than what Israel did after 10/7? If so please point me toward one example.
I think there were other paths that Israel could have taken. Treating Palestinians like they are vermin to be crushed and pushed out of the way has gone pretty well for Israel but is still causing major problems. Jewish people have gotten far by intimidation. If you speak up against Israel you get silenced or doxed. This strategy is not working as well as it did in the past. Who knows what the future holds?
Well obviously Israel is not going to go with the do nothing in response because we deserve it strategy or the now give Palestinians what they want because they sure showed us strategy.
But you actually didn't respond to the what should have Israel done after 10/7 question actually your response was along the lines of why they deserved it.
What does the future hold--more people in Gaza dying.
They should have gone after Hamas leadership before doing anything else.
But wow, that was a pretty blasé final comment. Your indifference to human suffering is fascinating.
I’m not sure I can ever come to understand how people who were trembling on their knees to be saved by the world just 80 years ago could have taken such a vicious “Hold my beer” strategy to new lows, but I guess some people never learn.
Not the previous poster.
The world is not a James Bond movie. I'm sure the multi-millionaire Hamas leadership in Qatar are dead men walking. Mossad will get them eventually, as they did with the terrorists that murdered athletes at the Olympics at Munich. Eichmann etc. Mossad will kill them in the end. It's probably not a great time for Hamas leaders to get on one of their private jets in Doha. The Prigozhin solution is always there.
But it will take time. These are not simple operations.
In the meantime, getting Yahya Sinwar, the head of Hamas in Gaza, is critical. I'm hopeful that military operations end when he's dead
And Israel is right to defend itself. Palestinians in Gaza invaded Israel and did what they did. They chose war. And war is what they're getting.
You expect Israelis to simply take these atrocities? Yeah, not happening. Palestinians have been given their own state several times. Always rejected. Instead they always choose terror. I mean, 80 years of this. How do you possibly negotiate with Palestinians?
Given
Cool, I wonder what your welcome would look like if someone dropped by to take possession of your property tomorrow morning, magnanimously subdivided it, and “gave” about 45% of it back to you (bad news: the house will have to shared).
I suspect we wouldn’t be able to count on you to organize a ticker tape parade in their honor later in the week.
DP. I reject your flawed framing, but to play along, maybe they should be nicer to people who have an even longer claim to the land. Or at least not go for whatever fascistic fanaticism Hamas is selling.
Longer claim?
I’d ask for their papers, but I don’t read Ukrainian or Polish so I’d have to take most of them at their word that they have an actual claim to the land, despite resembling nobody else from the neighborhood. And despite failing every genealogical test imaginable.
Jews go back 3,000 years there. Kinda a well established thing.
What percentage of the current population in Israel identifying as Jewish goes back 3,000 years in that narrow region? Be honest.
Israel is free to do whatever it damn wants which seems to be to kill as many Palestinians as possible but in that case Jewish people should stop acting shocked when the rest of the world views Israel as a heartless, cold blooded nation with no soul
This is the most common sense thing I have read about what is going on...and a few years ago it would not all have had to been said, but progressives have distored common sense.
Okay. Two things.
1. It is illogical to say "bad things happen and people get moved all the time" but conclude this with "Israel is here to stay". If things change and people move, they can change for Israel too.
2. "Everyone comes to an accommodation" not by hugs and kisses, but through restoration of rights. There is a reason Jews can reclaim stolen and compensated property in many places in Europe - because people acknowledged that what happened to them was unjust. They weren't told to just get over it. Israel restores pre-1948 property to Jews who can prove ownership. Not to Arabs, mind you. Never to Arabs. You come to an accommodation when the party that wronged you acknowledges the wrong and makes an effort to compensate for the wrong. "Get over it" is not an accommodation.
3. I find it terribly ironic when people parrot the line of "Palestinians were offered their own state on three different occasions!" but you press them for details and turns out they don't know crap about what was actually offered.
DP.
I know exactly what was offered on each occasion and think that the following is inarguably true:
1. The Palestinians will not get a better deal in the future than what they’ve previously been offered.
2. The Palestinian people would be FAR better off today had they accepted any of the previous offers.
By any measure of real world impact, the Palestinian leadership has chosen poorly.
Yes they have.
During decolonization, they were given a very nice state that stretched from the border with Lebanon to the Negev. Hills. Forests, a good coastline on the Mediterranean. Towns like Nazareth and Hebron. Olive groves. But they chose war instead.
In 1993, with the Oslo Accords, they were given all of Gaza and 97 percent of the West Bank. Israel would have compensated the remaining 3 percent with their own lands. All the West Bank settlers would have been long gone by now.
Instead, Palestinians chose intifada.
I don't mean this unkindly, but Palestinians seem to be incapable of having effective leadership. They choose Hamas. They choose Islamic Jihad. They choose the Palestinian Authority, one of the most corrupt parties in the world. Back on the day, the chose the PLO - murdering Olympic athletes, hijacking airplanes, causing a civil war in Lebanon, assassinating Prime Ministers in Jordan, supporting the invasion of Kuwait.
I mean, what is there to say. If they had chosen a Gandhi or a MLK, they would have had a state for a long time now. But they don't. They always choose terrorism, violence, corruption, fanaticism. How do you work with this?
Serious question: How do you keep a straight face pretending that someone like Bibi would have EVER allowed the establishment of a Palestinian state of any kind over the past 27 years? Seriously, how do you do it?
i think Netanyahu and Likud are terrible.
Israelis are genuinely stupid for going with this. There are a lot of extremists in Israel. I mean they murdered Yitzhak Rabin for goodness sake. Israelis are not ipso facto wonderful people.
But Palestinians are dumber
They've had numerous chances for a good, independent state. And they've rejected all of them.
I mean, what is there to do? Who the hell do you even negotiate with?
Palestinians have been idiots for 80 years. That's the problem. They think massacring a 1000+ innocent people and kidnapping hundreds of others is a great idea.
Yeah, well, that was a terrible idea and they are paying the consequences
Israelis aren't wonderful, but Palestinians are literally the dumbest people on the planet. They chose this.
How are Palestinians dumber? Bibi literally funds Hamas while elderly Holocaust survivors barely have enough to eat in Israel. That’s smart ?
Do you think Palestinians would ever support Ben Gvir or the right wing Kahanists/extremists and give them money to create settlements in the West Bank? They wouldn’t but Israel playing with fire until it got burned by Hamas
Your assumption is that Palestinians are docile idiots that got played by Netanyahu. And that Hamas is nothing more than a fabrication created by Israel.
Yeah, well, no.
Israelis made a terrible mistake electing this government. And they recognize that now. Netanyahu is polling at 4 percent presently. He'll be done once there are elections again. And there will be an investigation about the security failures that led to 10/7.
But Palestinians? Optimistically, this war ends when Sinwar is dead. Realistically, nothing ends until Palestinians choose some decent leaders. And they've shown no capacity to do so.
Israel has every right to destroy Hamas. Palestinians in Gaza chose war. It's brutal. It's unfair. But this is what Palestinians in Gaza chose for themselves. If you don't like the consequences, maybe don't invade and massacre and rape and kidnap a bunch of innocent people. And maybe choose better leaders. Every death is on the Palestinians in Gaza. They chose poorly - as they always seem to do.
Israel, because it's a democracy and notably nearly 25 percent Arab, will correct itself. But if Palestinians continue to choose Islamic extremists like Hamas or corrupt dinosaurs like the PA, well, things are going to continue to be a little hopeless. It's all up to the Palestinian people.
Easy to justify your pro-Israel views by calling Palestinians stupid but I doubt that they are any more stupid than you or me. All people want the same thing - safety, security, food, housing, jobs, a future for their children. They were offered bad deals - end of story.
They didn't love their children enough to choose peace, apparently.
I hate what is happening in Gaza - but come on. Palestinians are not babies who never had a choice in their whole lives. Don't belittle them by making them that passive and incompetent. They made choices - and those choices have consequences. I'm not excusing everything Israel did - but do you think for one second that any other country would have done things differently than what Israel did after 10/7? If so please point me toward one example.
I think there were other paths that Israel could have taken. Treating Palestinians like they are vermin to be crushed and pushed out of the way has gone pretty well for Israel but is still causing major problems. Jewish people have gotten far by intimidation. If you speak up against Israel you get silenced or doxed. This strategy is not working as well as it did in the past. Who knows what the future holds?
Well obviously Israel is not going to go with the do nothing in response because we deserve it strategy or the now give Palestinians what they want because they sure showed us strategy.
But you actually didn't respond to the what should have Israel done after 10/7 question actually your response was along the lines of why they deserved it.
What does the future hold--more people in Gaza dying.
They should have gone after Hamas leadership before doing anything else.
But wow, that was a pretty blasé final comment. Your indifference to human suffering is fascinating.
I’m not sure I can ever come to understand how people who were trembling on their knees to be saved by the world just 80 years ago could have taken such a vicious “Hold my beer” strategy to new lows, but I guess some people never learn.
Not the previous poster.
The world is not a James Bond movie. I'm sure the multi-millionaire Hamas leadership in Qatar are dead men walking. Mossad will get them eventually, as they did with the terrorists that murdered athletes at the Olympics at Munich. Eichmann etc. Mossad will kill them in the end. It's probably not a great time for Hamas leaders to get on one of their private jets in Doha. The Prigozhin solution is always there.
But it will take time. These are not simple operations.
In the meantime, getting Yahya Sinwar, the head of Hamas in Gaza, is critical. I'm hopeful that military operations end when he's dead
And Israel is right to defend itself. Palestinians in Gaza invaded Israel and did what they did. They chose war. And war is what they're getting.
You expect Israelis to simply take these atrocities? Yeah, not happening. Palestinians have been given their own state several times. Always rejected. Instead they always choose terror. I mean, 80 years of this. How do you possibly negotiate with Palestinians?
Given
Cool, I wonder what your welcome would look like if someone dropped by to take possession of your property tomorrow morning, magnanimously subdivided it, and “gave” about 45% of it back to you (bad news: the house will have to shared).
I suspect we wouldn’t be able to count on you to organize a ticker tape parade in their honor later in the week.
DP. I reject your flawed framing, but to play along, maybe they should be nicer to people who have an even longer claim to the land. Or at least not go for whatever fascistic fanaticism Hamas is selling.
Longer claim?
I’d ask for their papers, but I don’t read Ukrainian or Polish so I’d have to take most of them at their word that they have an actual claim to the land, despite resembling nobody else from the neighborhood. And despite failing every genealogical test imaginable.
Jews go back 3,000 years there. Kinda a well established thing.
They left. You don't get to leave and then have your descendants waltz back in and demand "your" land back.
Israel is free to do whatever it damn wants which seems to be to kill as many Palestinians as possible but in that case Jewish people should stop acting shocked when the rest of the world views Israel as a heartless, cold blooded nation with no soul
This is the most common sense thing I have read about what is going on...and a few years ago it would not all have had to been said, but progressives have distored common sense.
Okay. Two things.
1. It is illogical to say "bad things happen and people get moved all the time" but conclude this with "Israel is here to stay". If things change and people move, they can change for Israel too.
2. "Everyone comes to an accommodation" not by hugs and kisses, but through restoration of rights. There is a reason Jews can reclaim stolen and compensated property in many places in Europe - because people acknowledged that what happened to them was unjust. They weren't told to just get over it. Israel restores pre-1948 property to Jews who can prove ownership. Not to Arabs, mind you. Never to Arabs. You come to an accommodation when the party that wronged you acknowledges the wrong and makes an effort to compensate for the wrong. "Get over it" is not an accommodation.
3. I find it terribly ironic when people parrot the line of "Palestinians were offered their own state on three different occasions!" but you press them for details and turns out they don't know crap about what was actually offered.
DP.
I know exactly what was offered on each occasion and think that the following is inarguably true:
1. The Palestinians will not get a better deal in the future than what they’ve previously been offered.
2. The Palestinian people would be FAR better off today had they accepted any of the previous offers.
By any measure of real world impact, the Palestinian leadership has chosen poorly.
Yes they have.
During decolonization, they were given a very nice state that stretched from the border with Lebanon to the Negev. Hills. Forests, a good coastline on the Mediterranean. Towns like Nazareth and Hebron. Olive groves. But they chose war instead.
In 1993, with the Oslo Accords, they were given all of Gaza and 97 percent of the West Bank. Israel would have compensated the remaining 3 percent with their own lands. All the West Bank settlers would have been long gone by now.
Instead, Palestinians chose intifada.
I don't mean this unkindly, but Palestinians seem to be incapable of having effective leadership. They choose Hamas. They choose Islamic Jihad. They choose the Palestinian Authority, one of the most corrupt parties in the world. Back on the day, the chose the PLO - murdering Olympic athletes, hijacking airplanes, causing a civil war in Lebanon, assassinating Prime Ministers in Jordan, supporting the invasion of Kuwait.
I mean, what is there to say. If they had chosen a Gandhi or a MLK, they would have had a state for a long time now. But they don't. They always choose terrorism, violence, corruption, fanaticism. How do you work with this?
Serious question: How do you keep a straight face pretending that someone like Bibi would have EVER allowed the establishment of a Palestinian state of any kind over the past 27 years? Seriously, how do you do it?
i think Netanyahu and Likud are terrible.
Israelis are genuinely stupid for going with this. There are a lot of extremists in Israel. I mean they murdered Yitzhak Rabin for goodness sake. Israelis are not ipso facto wonderful people.
But Palestinians are dumber
They've had numerous chances for a good, independent state. And they've rejected all of them.
I mean, what is there to do? Who the hell do you even negotiate with?
Palestinians have been idiots for 80 years. That's the problem. They think massacring a 1000+ innocent people and kidnapping hundreds of others is a great idea.
Yeah, well, that was a terrible idea and they are paying the consequences
Israelis aren't wonderful, but Palestinians are literally the dumbest people on the planet. They chose this.
How are Palestinians dumber? Bibi literally funds Hamas while elderly Holocaust survivors barely have enough to eat in Israel. That’s smart ?
Do you think Palestinians would ever support Ben Gvir or the right wing Kahanists/extremists and give them money to create settlements in the West Bank? They wouldn’t but Israel playing with fire until it got burned by Hamas
Your assumption is that Palestinians are docile idiots that got played by Netanyahu. And that Hamas is nothing more than a fabrication created by Israel.
Yeah, well, no.
Israelis made a terrible mistake electing this government. And they recognize that now. Netanyahu is polling at 4 percent presently. He'll be done once there are elections again. And there will be an investigation about the security failures that led to 10/7.
But Palestinians? Optimistically, this war ends when Sinwar is dead. Realistically, nothing ends until Palestinians choose some decent leaders. And they've shown no capacity to do so.
Israel has every right to destroy Hamas. Palestinians in Gaza chose war. It's brutal. It's unfair. But this is what Palestinians in Gaza chose for themselves. If you don't like the consequences, maybe don't invade and massacre and rape and kidnap a bunch of innocent people. And maybe choose better leaders. Every death is on the Palestinians in Gaza. They chose poorly - as they always seem to do.
Israel, because it's a democracy and notably nearly 25 percent Arab, will correct itself. But if Palestinians continue to choose Islamic extremists like Hamas or corrupt dinosaurs like the PA, well, things are going to continue to be a little hopeless. It's all up to the Palestinian people.
Easy to justify your pro-Israel views by calling Palestinians stupid but I doubt that they are any more stupid than you or me. All people want the same thing - safety, security, food, housing, jobs, a future for their children. They were offered bad deals - end of story.
They didn't love their children enough to choose peace, apparently.
I hate what is happening in Gaza - but come on. Palestinians are not babies who never had a choice in their whole lives. Don't belittle them by making them that passive and incompetent. They made choices - and those choices have consequences. I'm not excusing everything Israel did - but do you think for one second that any other country would have done things differently than what Israel did after 10/7? If so please point me toward one example.
I think there were other paths that Israel could have taken. Treating Palestinians like they are vermin to be crushed and pushed out of the way has gone pretty well for Israel but is still causing major problems. Jewish people have gotten far by intimidation. If you speak up against Israel you get silenced or doxed. This strategy is not working as well as it did in the past. Who knows what the future holds?
Well obviously Israel is not going to go with the do nothing in response because we deserve it strategy or the now give Palestinians what they want because they sure showed us strategy.
But you actually didn't respond to the what should have Israel done after 10/7 question actually your response was along the lines of why they deserved it.
What does the future hold--more people in Gaza dying.
They should have gone after Hamas leadership before doing anything else.
But wow, that was a pretty blasé final comment. Your indifference to human suffering is fascinating.
I’m not sure I can ever come to understand how people who were trembling on their knees to be saved by the world just 80 years ago could have taken such a vicious “Hold my beer” strategy to new lows, but I guess some people never learn.
Not the previous poster.
The world is not a James Bond movie. I'm sure the multi-millionaire Hamas leadership in Qatar are dead men walking. Mossad will get them eventually, as they did with the terrorists that murdered athletes at the Olympics at Munich. Eichmann etc. Mossad will kill them in the end. It's probably not a great time for Hamas leaders to get on one of their private jets in Doha. The Prigozhin solution is always there.
But it will take time. These are not simple operations.
In the meantime, getting Yahya Sinwar, the head of Hamas in Gaza, is critical. I'm hopeful that military operations end when he's dead
And Israel is right to defend itself. Palestinians in Gaza invaded Israel and did what they did. They chose war. And war is what they're getting.
You expect Israelis to simply take these atrocities? Yeah, not happening. Palestinians have been given their own state several times. Always rejected. Instead they always choose terror. I mean, 80 years of this. How do you possibly negotiate with Palestinians?
Given
Cool, I wonder what your welcome would look like if someone dropped by to take possession of your property tomorrow morning, magnanimously subdivided it, and “gave” about 45% of it back to you (bad news: the house will have to shared).
I suspect we wouldn’t be able to count on you to organize a ticker tape parade in their honor later in the week.
DP. I reject your flawed framing, but to play along, maybe they should be nicer to people who have an even longer claim to the land. Or at least not go for whatever fascistic fanaticism Hamas is selling.
Israelis have a longer claim to the land in the same sense that I have a right to kick out whoever currently lives in my Italian great -grandfather's pre-immigration home.
Israel is free to do whatever it damn wants which seems to be to kill as many Palestinians as possible but in that case Jewish people should stop acting shocked when the rest of the world views Israel as a heartless, cold blooded nation with no soul
This is the most common sense thing I have read about what is going on...and a few years ago it would not all have had to been said, but progressives have distored common sense.
Okay. Two things.
1. It is illogical to say "bad things happen and people get moved all the time" but conclude this with "Israel is here to stay". If things change and people move, they can change for Israel too.
2. "Everyone comes to an accommodation" not by hugs and kisses, but through restoration of rights. There is a reason Jews can reclaim stolen and compensated property in many places in Europe - because people acknowledged that what happened to them was unjust. They weren't told to just get over it. Israel restores pre-1948 property to Jews who can prove ownership. Not to Arabs, mind you. Never to Arabs. You come to an accommodation when the party that wronged you acknowledges the wrong and makes an effort to compensate for the wrong. "Get over it" is not an accommodation.
3. I find it terribly ironic when people parrot the line of "Palestinians were offered their own state on three different occasions!" but you press them for details and turns out they don't know crap about what was actually offered.
DP.
I know exactly what was offered on each occasion and think that the following is inarguably true:
1. The Palestinians will not get a better deal in the future than what they’ve previously been offered.
2. The Palestinian people would be FAR better off today had they accepted any of the previous offers.
By any measure of real world impact, the Palestinian leadership has chosen poorly.
Yes they have.
During decolonization, they were given a very nice state that stretched from the border with Lebanon to the Negev. Hills. Forests, a good coastline on the Mediterranean. Towns like Nazareth and Hebron. Olive groves. But they chose war instead.
In 1993, with the Oslo Accords, they were given all of Gaza and 97 percent of the West Bank. Israel would have compensated the remaining 3 percent with their own lands. All the West Bank settlers would have been long gone by now.
Instead, Palestinians chose intifada.
I don't mean this unkindly, but Palestinians seem to be incapable of having effective leadership. They choose Hamas. They choose Islamic Jihad. They choose the Palestinian Authority, one of the most corrupt parties in the world. Back on the day, the chose the PLO - murdering Olympic athletes, hijacking airplanes, causing a civil war in Lebanon, assassinating Prime Ministers in Jordan, supporting the invasion of Kuwait.
I mean, what is there to say. If they had chosen a Gandhi or a MLK, they would have had a state for a long time now. But they don't. They always choose terrorism, violence, corruption, fanaticism. How do you work with this?
Serious question: How do you keep a straight face pretending that someone like Bibi would have EVER allowed the establishment of a Palestinian state of any kind over the past 27 years? Seriously, how do you do it?
i think Netanyahu and Likud are terrible.
Israelis are genuinely stupid for going with this. There are a lot of extremists in Israel. I mean they murdered Yitzhak Rabin for goodness sake. Israelis are not ipso facto wonderful people.
But Palestinians are dumber
They've had numerous chances for a good, independent state. And they've rejected all of them.
I mean, what is there to do? Who the hell do you even negotiate with?
Palestinians have been idiots for 80 years. That's the problem. They think massacring a 1000+ innocent people and kidnapping hundreds of others is a great idea.
Yeah, well, that was a terrible idea and they are paying the consequences
Israelis aren't wonderful, but Palestinians are literally the dumbest people on the planet. They chose this.
How are Palestinians dumber? Bibi literally funds Hamas while elderly Holocaust survivors barely have enough to eat in Israel. That’s smart ?
Do you think Palestinians would ever support Ben Gvir or the right wing Kahanists/extremists and give them money to create settlements in the West Bank? They wouldn’t but Israel playing with fire until it got burned by Hamas
Your assumption is that Palestinians are docile idiots that got played by Netanyahu. And that Hamas is nothing more than a fabrication created by Israel.
Yeah, well, no.
Israelis made a terrible mistake electing this government. And they recognize that now. Netanyahu is polling at 4 percent presently. He'll be done once there are elections again. And there will be an investigation about the security failures that led to 10/7.
But Palestinians? Optimistically, this war ends when Sinwar is dead. Realistically, nothing ends until Palestinians choose some decent leaders. And they've shown no capacity to do so.
Israel has every right to destroy Hamas. Palestinians in Gaza chose war. It's brutal. It's unfair. But this is what Palestinians in Gaza chose for themselves. If you don't like the consequences, maybe don't invade and massacre and rape and kidnap a bunch of innocent people. And maybe choose better leaders. Every death is on the Palestinians in Gaza. They chose poorly - as they always seem to do.
Israel, because it's a democracy and notably nearly 25 percent Arab, will correct itself. But if Palestinians continue to choose Islamic extremists like Hamas or corrupt dinosaurs like the PA, well, things are going to continue to be a little hopeless. It's all up to the Palestinian people.
Easy to justify your pro-Israel views by calling Palestinians stupid but I doubt that they are any more stupid than you or me. All people want the same thing - safety, security, food, housing, jobs, a future for their children. They were offered bad deals - end of story.
They didn't love their children enough to choose peace, apparently.
I hate what is happening in Gaza - but come on. Palestinians are not babies who never had a choice in their whole lives. Don't belittle them by making them that passive and incompetent. They made choices - and those choices have consequences. I'm not excusing everything Israel did - but do you think for one second that any other country would have done things differently than what Israel did after 10/7? If so please point me toward one example.
I think there were other paths that Israel could have taken. Treating Palestinians like they are vermin to be crushed and pushed out of the way has gone pretty well for Israel but is still causing major problems. Jewish people have gotten far by intimidation. If you speak up against Israel you get silenced or doxed. This strategy is not working as well as it did in the past. Who knows what the future holds?
Well obviously Israel is not going to go with the do nothing in response because we deserve it strategy or the now give Palestinians what they want because they sure showed us strategy.
But you actually didn't respond to the what should have Israel done after 10/7 question actually your response was along the lines of why they deserved it.
What does the future hold--more people in Gaza dying.
They should have gone after Hamas leadership before doing anything else.
But wow, that was a pretty blasé final comment. Your indifference to human suffering is fascinating.
I’m not sure I can ever come to understand how people who were trembling on their knees to be saved by the world just 80 years ago could have taken such a vicious “Hold my beer” strategy to new lows, but I guess some people never learn.
Not the previous poster.
The world is not a James Bond movie. I'm sure the multi-millionaire Hamas leadership in Qatar are dead men walking. Mossad will get them eventually, as they did with the terrorists that murdered athletes at the Olympics at Munich. Eichmann etc. Mossad will kill them in the end. It's probably not a great time for Hamas leaders to get on one of their private jets in Doha. The Prigozhin solution is always there.
But it will take time. These are not simple operations.
In the meantime, getting Yahya Sinwar, the head of Hamas in Gaza, is critical. I'm hopeful that military operations end when he's dead
And Israel is right to defend itself. Palestinians in Gaza invaded Israel and did what they did. They chose war. And war is what they're getting.
You expect Israelis to simply take these atrocities? Yeah, not happening. Palestinians have been given their own state several times. Always rejected. Instead they always choose terror. I mean, 80 years of this. How do you possibly negotiate with Palestinians?
Given
Cool, I wonder what your welcome would look like if someone dropped by to take possession of your property tomorrow morning, magnanimously subdivided it, and “gave” about 45% of it back to you (bad news: the house will have to shared).
I suspect we wouldn’t be able to count on you to organize a ticker tape parade in their honor later in the week.
DP. I reject your flawed framing, but to play along, maybe they should be nicer to people who have an even longer claim to the land. Or at least not go for whatever fascistic fanaticism Hamas is selling.
Israelis have a longer claim to the land in the same sense that I have a right to kick out whoever currently lives in my Italian great -grandfather's pre-immigration home.
Israel is free to do whatever it damn wants which seems to be to kill as many Palestinians as possible but in that case Jewish people should stop acting shocked when the rest of the world views Israel as a heartless, cold blooded nation with no soul
This is the most common sense thing I have read about what is going on...and a few years ago it would not all have had to been said, but progressives have distored common sense.
Okay. Two things.
1. It is illogical to say "bad things happen and people get moved all the time" but conclude this with "Israel is here to stay". If things change and people move, they can change for Israel too.
2. "Everyone comes to an accommodation" not by hugs and kisses, but through restoration of rights. There is a reason Jews can reclaim stolen and compensated property in many places in Europe - because people acknowledged that what happened to them was unjust. They weren't told to just get over it. Israel restores pre-1948 property to Jews who can prove ownership. Not to Arabs, mind you. Never to Arabs. You come to an accommodation when the party that wronged you acknowledges the wrong and makes an effort to compensate for the wrong. "Get over it" is not an accommodation.
3. I find it terribly ironic when people parrot the line of "Palestinians were offered their own state on three different occasions!" but you press them for details and turns out they don't know crap about what was actually offered.
DP.
I know exactly what was offered on each occasion and think that the following is inarguably true:
1. The Palestinians will not get a better deal in the future than what they’ve previously been offered.
2. The Palestinian people would be FAR better off today had they accepted any of the previous offers.
By any measure of real world impact, the Palestinian leadership has chosen poorly.
Yes they have.
During decolonization, they were given a very nice state that stretched from the border with Lebanon to the Negev. Hills. Forests, a good coastline on the Mediterranean. Towns like Nazareth and Hebron. Olive groves. But they chose war instead.
In 1993, with the Oslo Accords, they were given all of Gaza and 97 percent of the West Bank. Israel would have compensated the remaining 3 percent with their own lands. All the West Bank settlers would have been long gone by now.
Instead, Palestinians chose intifada.
I don't mean this unkindly, but Palestinians seem to be incapable of having effective leadership. They choose Hamas. They choose Islamic Jihad. They choose the Palestinian Authority, one of the most corrupt parties in the world. Back on the day, the chose the PLO - murdering Olympic athletes, hijacking airplanes, causing a civil war in Lebanon, assassinating Prime Ministers in Jordan, supporting the invasion of Kuwait.
I mean, what is there to say. If they had chosen a Gandhi or a MLK, they would have had a state for a long time now. But they don't. They always choose terrorism, violence, corruption, fanaticism. How do you work with this?
Serious question: How do you keep a straight face pretending that someone like Bibi would have EVER allowed the establishment of a Palestinian state of any kind over the past 27 years? Seriously, how do you do it?
i think Netanyahu and Likud are terrible.
Israelis are genuinely stupid for going with this. There are a lot of extremists in Israel. I mean they murdered Yitzhak Rabin for goodness sake. Israelis are not ipso facto wonderful people.
But Palestinians are dumber
They've had numerous chances for a good, independent state. And they've rejected all of them.
I mean, what is there to do? Who the hell do you even negotiate with?
Palestinians have been idiots for 80 years. That's the problem. They think massacring a 1000+ innocent people and kidnapping hundreds of others is a great idea.
Yeah, well, that was a terrible idea and they are paying the consequences
Israelis aren't wonderful, but Palestinians are literally the dumbest people on the planet. They chose this.
How are Palestinians dumber? Bibi literally funds Hamas while elderly Holocaust survivors barely have enough to eat in Israel. That’s smart ?
Do you think Palestinians would ever support Ben Gvir or the right wing Kahanists/extremists and give them money to create settlements in the West Bank? They wouldn’t but Israel playing with fire until it got burned by Hamas
Your assumption is that Palestinians are docile idiots that got played by Netanyahu. And that Hamas is nothing more than a fabrication created by Israel.
Yeah, well, no.
Israelis made a terrible mistake electing this government. And they recognize that now. Netanyahu is polling at 4 percent presently. He'll be done once there are elections again. And there will be an investigation about the security failures that led to 10/7.
But Palestinians? Optimistically, this war ends when Sinwar is dead. Realistically, nothing ends until Palestinians choose some decent leaders. And they've shown no capacity to do so.
Israel has every right to destroy Hamas. Palestinians in Gaza chose war. It's brutal. It's unfair. But this is what Palestinians in Gaza chose for themselves. If you don't like the consequences, maybe don't invade and massacre and rape and kidnap a bunch of innocent people. And maybe choose better leaders. Every death is on the Palestinians in Gaza. They chose poorly - as they always seem to do.
Israel, because it's a democracy and notably nearly 25 percent Arab, will correct itself. But if Palestinians continue to choose Islamic extremists like Hamas or corrupt dinosaurs like the PA, well, things are going to continue to be a little hopeless. It's all up to the Palestinian people.
Easy to justify your pro-Israel views by calling Palestinians stupid but I doubt that they are any more stupid than you or me. All people want the same thing - safety, security, food, housing, jobs, a future for their children. They were offered bad deals - end of story.
They didn't love their children enough to choose peace, apparently.
I hate what is happening in Gaza - but come on. Palestinians are not babies who never had a choice in their whole lives. Don't belittle them by making them that passive and incompetent. They made choices - and those choices have consequences. I'm not excusing everything Israel did - but do you think for one second that any other country would have done things differently than what Israel did after 10/7? If so please point me toward one example.
I think there were other paths that Israel could have taken. Treating Palestinians like they are vermin to be crushed and pushed out of the way has gone pretty well for Israel but is still causing major problems. Jewish people have gotten far by intimidation. If you speak up against Israel you get silenced or doxed. This strategy is not working as well as it did in the past. Who knows what the future holds?
Well obviously Israel is not going to go with the do nothing in response because we deserve it strategy or the now give Palestinians what they want because they sure showed us strategy.
But you actually didn't respond to the what should have Israel done after 10/7 question actually your response was along the lines of why they deserved it.
What does the future hold--more people in Gaza dying.
They should have gone after Hamas leadership before doing anything else.
But wow, that was a pretty blasé final comment. Your indifference to human suffering is fascinating.
I’m not sure I can ever come to understand how people who were trembling on their knees to be saved by the world just 80 years ago could have taken such a vicious “Hold my beer” strategy to new lows, but I guess some people never learn.
Not the previous poster.
The world is not a James Bond movie. I'm sure the multi-millionaire Hamas leadership in Qatar are dead men walking. Mossad will get them eventually, as they did with the terrorists that murdered athletes at the Olympics at Munich. Eichmann etc. Mossad will kill them in the end. It's probably not a great time for Hamas leaders to get on one of their private jets in Doha. The Prigozhin solution is always there.
But it will take time. These are not simple operations.
In the meantime, getting Yahya Sinwar, the head of Hamas in Gaza, is critical. I'm hopeful that military operations end when he's dead
And Israel is right to defend itself. Palestinians in Gaza invaded Israel and did what they did. They chose war. And war is what they're getting.
You expect Israelis to simply take these atrocities? Yeah, not happening. Palestinians have been given their own state several times. Always rejected. Instead they always choose terror. I mean, 80 years of this. How do you possibly negotiate with Palestinians?
Given
Cool, I wonder what your welcome would look like if someone dropped by to take possession of your property tomorrow morning, magnanimously subdivided it, and “gave” about 45% of it back to you (bad news: the house will have to shared).
I suspect we wouldn’t be able to count on you to organize a ticker tape parade in their honor later in the week.
DP. I reject your flawed framing, but to play along, maybe they should be nicer to people who have an even longer claim to the land. Or at least not go for whatever fascistic fanaticism Hamas is selling.
Longer claim?
I’d ask for their papers, but I don’t read Ukrainian or Polish so I’d have to take most of them at their word that they have an actual claim to the land, despite resembling nobody else from the neighborhood. And despite failing every genealogical test imaginable.
Jews go back 3,000 years there. Kinda a well established thing.
They left. You don't get to leave and then have your descendants waltz back in and demand "your" land back.
Didn’t all leave. Sure, Arab countries ethnically cleansed Jews, but no need to focus on that. Palestinian claims aren’t that long. Unless you want to get into the whole Canaanite thing and all.
Anonymous wrote:People are acting like those who oppose the IDF's actions are somehow pro-Hamas. We are not. October 7th was evil. Horrifically so. But what is going on now? Also evil. Scorched earth warfare is evil. Killing civilians is evil. Letting babies die in hospitals is evil. Setting food supplies on fire is evil. Every rational person was filled with grief and outrage at the straight up demonic acts committed on October 7th. But that doesn't mean it's 100% okay to do whatever you want in retaliation with no regard for innocent human life.
IDF was never applying “scorched earth warfare.” And it is hardly bombing anything anymore, other than drone strikes on terrorists who surface above ground. The IDF shows more regard for human life than its psychopathic enemies would in 1,000 lifetimes.
Yes, yes, killing women sheltering in a Catholic Church and shooting dead at point blank range a journalist documenting the dead babies killed by the IDF.
HUGE regard for innocent human life.
No idea about those allegations. This is a hugely stressful urban warfare environment against a sadistic enemy that turned Gaza into the world’s largest military fortification. Israel is fighting with one hand tied behind its back and exposing its soldiers to greater risk as a result of US instructions. Its soldiers are human too.
Now the Pope and the Associated Press are lying (the Pope spoke on the church murders this morning, and the AP has also reported on the church killings and the journalist assassination), joining the U.N., the Irish, and anyone who expresses concern for the atrocities occurring in Gaza since 10/7 (and who also expressed outrage for the atrocities that occurred in Israel on 10/7) as unreliable sources.
FFS, do you hear yourself? What level of dishonesty is too far for you?
The IDF isn’t fighting with one hand behind its back. It’s fighting with an insurmountable set of advantages gifted by America. GTFOH with this largest military fortification nonsense, too. It’s just that the guiding principle of your military is vengeance, your personnel is comprised of amateurs who are scared to fight on level footing, they are poorly led, and they are operating without any pretense of accountability.
Word salad.
Genocidal White Supremacist says what?
What a strange, baseless accusation.
Didn’t see anything after “what”.
Checks out.
Nope. It’s impossible to respond to a word salad rant. But ok, here’s one thing. A “level footing” against Hamas would be hiding behind women and children, as Hamas does, or hiding in billions of dollars of tunnels, as Hamas does. No need to play by psychopathic terrorists’ rules, right?
Hamas sucks. No like. Down with Hamas. Too much death. Also down with bad IDF.
Is that less word salad-y for you? I mean, I know it doesn’t fit your attempt to shout down posts you don’t like as “crazy”. But otherwise OK?
Hey bro, it’s your post. You say “down with bad IDF.” I don’t see it that way. But you do you.
You label views that upset the “Israel is righteous” apple cart as word salad to try to derail the point being made.
Don’t hit the ripcord now. It’s a dirty, sleazy tactic, but you should own it.
Israel is free to do whatever it damn wants which seems to be to kill as many Palestinians as possible but in that case Jewish people should stop acting shocked when the rest of the world views Israel as a heartless, cold blooded nation with no soul
This is the most common sense thing I have read about what is going on...and a few years ago it would not all have had to been said, but progressives have distored common sense.
Okay. Two things.
1. It is illogical to say "bad things happen and people get moved all the time" but conclude this with "Israel is here to stay". If things change and people move, they can change for Israel too.
2. "Everyone comes to an accommodation" not by hugs and kisses, but through restoration of rights. There is a reason Jews can reclaim stolen and compensated property in many places in Europe - because people acknowledged that what happened to them was unjust. They weren't told to just get over it. Israel restores pre-1948 property to Jews who can prove ownership. Not to Arabs, mind you. Never to Arabs. You come to an accommodation when the party that wronged you acknowledges the wrong and makes an effort to compensate for the wrong. "Get over it" is not an accommodation.
3. I find it terribly ironic when people parrot the line of "Palestinians were offered their own state on three different occasions!" but you press them for details and turns out they don't know crap about what was actually offered.
DP.
I know exactly what was offered on each occasion and think that the following is inarguably true:
1. The Palestinians will not get a better deal in the future than what they’ve previously been offered.
2. The Palestinian people would be FAR better off today had they accepted any of the previous offers.
By any measure of real world impact, the Palestinian leadership has chosen poorly.
Yes they have.
During decolonization, they were given a very nice state that stretched from the border with Lebanon to the Negev. Hills. Forests, a good coastline on the Mediterranean. Towns like Nazareth and Hebron. Olive groves. But they chose war instead.
In 1993, with the Oslo Accords, they were given all of Gaza and 97 percent of the West Bank. Israel would have compensated the remaining 3 percent with their own lands. All the West Bank settlers would have been long gone by now.
Instead, Palestinians chose intifada.
I don't mean this unkindly, but Palestinians seem to be incapable of having effective leadership. They choose Hamas. They choose Islamic Jihad. They choose the Palestinian Authority, one of the most corrupt parties in the world. Back on the day, the chose the PLO - murdering Olympic athletes, hijacking airplanes, causing a civil war in Lebanon, assassinating Prime Ministers in Jordan, supporting the invasion of Kuwait.
I mean, what is there to say. If they had chosen a Gandhi or a MLK, they would have had a state for a long time now. But they don't. They always choose terrorism, violence, corruption, fanaticism. How do you work with this?
Serious question: How do you keep a straight face pretending that someone like Bibi would have EVER allowed the establishment of a Palestinian state of any kind over the past 27 years? Seriously, how do you do it?
i think Netanyahu and Likud are terrible.
Israelis are genuinely stupid for going with this. There are a lot of extremists in Israel. I mean they murdered Yitzhak Rabin for goodness sake. Israelis are not ipso facto wonderful people.
But Palestinians are dumber
They've had numerous chances for a good, independent state. And they've rejected all of them.
I mean, what is there to do? Who the hell do you even negotiate with?
Palestinians have been idiots for 80 years. That's the problem. They think massacring a 1000+ innocent people and kidnapping hundreds of others is a great idea.
Yeah, well, that was a terrible idea and they are paying the consequences
Israelis aren't wonderful, but Palestinians are literally the dumbest people on the planet. They chose this.
How are Palestinians dumber? Bibi literally funds Hamas while elderly Holocaust survivors barely have enough to eat in Israel. That’s smart ?
Do you think Palestinians would ever support Ben Gvir or the right wing Kahanists/extremists and give them money to create settlements in the West Bank? They wouldn’t but Israel playing with fire until it got burned by Hamas
Your assumption is that Palestinians are docile idiots that got played by Netanyahu. And that Hamas is nothing more than a fabrication created by Israel.
Yeah, well, no.
Israelis made a terrible mistake electing this government. And they recognize that now. Netanyahu is polling at 4 percent presently. He'll be done once there are elections again. And there will be an investigation about the security failures that led to 10/7.
But Palestinians? Optimistically, this war ends when Sinwar is dead. Realistically, nothing ends until Palestinians choose some decent leaders. And they've shown no capacity to do so.
Israel has every right to destroy Hamas. Palestinians in Gaza chose war. It's brutal. It's unfair. But this is what Palestinians in Gaza chose for themselves. If you don't like the consequences, maybe don't invade and massacre and rape and kidnap a bunch of innocent people. And maybe choose better leaders. Every death is on the Palestinians in Gaza. They chose poorly - as they always seem to do.
Israel, because it's a democracy and notably nearly 25 percent Arab, will correct itself. But if Palestinians continue to choose Islamic extremists like Hamas or corrupt dinosaurs like the PA, well, things are going to continue to be a little hopeless. It's all up to the Palestinian people.
Easy to justify your pro-Israel views by calling Palestinians stupid but I doubt that they are any more stupid than you or me. All people want the same thing - safety, security, food, housing, jobs, a future for their children. They were offered bad deals - end of story.
They didn't love their children enough to choose peace, apparently.
I hate what is happening in Gaza - but come on. Palestinians are not babies who never had a choice in their whole lives. Don't belittle them by making them that passive and incompetent. They made choices - and those choices have consequences. I'm not excusing everything Israel did - but do you think for one second that any other country would have done things differently than what Israel did after 10/7? If so please point me toward one example.
I think there were other paths that Israel could have taken. Treating Palestinians like they are vermin to be crushed and pushed out of the way has gone pretty well for Israel but is still causing major problems. Jewish people have gotten far by intimidation. If you speak up against Israel you get silenced or doxed. This strategy is not working as well as it did in the past. Who knows what the future holds?
Well obviously Israel is not going to go with the do nothing in response because we deserve it strategy or the now give Palestinians what they want because they sure showed us strategy.
But you actually didn't respond to the what should have Israel done after 10/7 question actually your response was along the lines of why they deserved it.
What does the future hold--more people in Gaza dying.
They should have gone after Hamas leadership before doing anything else.
But wow, that was a pretty blasé final comment. Your indifference to human suffering is fascinating.
I’m not sure I can ever come to understand how people who were trembling on their knees to be saved by the world just 80 years ago could have taken such a vicious “Hold my beer” strategy to new lows, but I guess some people never learn.
Not the previous poster.
The world is not a James Bond movie. I'm sure the multi-millionaire Hamas leadership in Qatar are dead men walking. Mossad will get them eventually, as they did with the terrorists that murdered athletes at the Olympics at Munich. Eichmann etc. Mossad will kill them in the end. It's probably not a great time for Hamas leaders to get on one of their private jets in Doha. The Prigozhin solution is always there.
But it will take time. These are not simple operations.
In the meantime, getting Yahya Sinwar, the head of Hamas in Gaza, is critical. I'm hopeful that military operations end when he's dead
And Israel is right to defend itself. Palestinians in Gaza invaded Israel and did what they did. They chose war. And war is what they're getting.
You expect Israelis to simply take these atrocities? Yeah, not happening. Palestinians have been given their own state several times. Always rejected. Instead they always choose terror. I mean, 80 years of this. How do you possibly negotiate with Palestinians?
Given
Cool, I wonder what your welcome would look like if someone dropped by to take possession of your property tomorrow morning, magnanimously subdivided it, and “gave” about 45% of it back to you (bad news: the house will have to shared).
I suspect we wouldn’t be able to count on you to organize a ticker tape parade in their honor later in the week.
DP. I reject your flawed framing, but to play along, maybe they should be nicer to people who have an even longer claim to the land. Or at least not go for whatever fascistic fanaticism Hamas is selling.
Israelis have a longer claim to the land in the same sense that I have a right to kick out whoever currently lives in my Italian great -grandfather's pre-immigration home.
Nah, it’s much different from your weird analogy.
Because of the whole god given, chosen people fairytale?
Israel is free to do whatever it damn wants which seems to be to kill as many Palestinians as possible but in that case Jewish people should stop acting shocked when the rest of the world views Israel as a heartless, cold blooded nation with no soul
This is the most common sense thing I have read about what is going on...and a few years ago it would not all have had to been said, but progressives have distored common sense.
Okay. Two things.
1. It is illogical to say "bad things happen and people get moved all the time" but conclude this with "Israel is here to stay". If things change and people move, they can change for Israel too.
2. "Everyone comes to an accommodation" not by hugs and kisses, but through restoration of rights. There is a reason Jews can reclaim stolen and compensated property in many places in Europe - because people acknowledged that what happened to them was unjust. They weren't told to just get over it. Israel restores pre-1948 property to Jews who can prove ownership. Not to Arabs, mind you. Never to Arabs. You come to an accommodation when the party that wronged you acknowledges the wrong and makes an effort to compensate for the wrong. "Get over it" is not an accommodation.
3. I find it terribly ironic when people parrot the line of "Palestinians were offered their own state on three different occasions!" but you press them for details and turns out they don't know crap about what was actually offered.
DP.
I know exactly what was offered on each occasion and think that the following is inarguably true:
1. The Palestinians will not get a better deal in the future than what they’ve previously been offered.
2. The Palestinian people would be FAR better off today had they accepted any of the previous offers.
By any measure of real world impact, the Palestinian leadership has chosen poorly.
Yes they have.
During decolonization, they were given a very nice state that stretched from the border with Lebanon to the Negev. Hills. Forests, a good coastline on the Mediterranean. Towns like Nazareth and Hebron. Olive groves. But they chose war instead.
In 1993, with the Oslo Accords, they were given all of Gaza and 97 percent of the West Bank. Israel would have compensated the remaining 3 percent with their own lands. All the West Bank settlers would have been long gone by now.
Instead, Palestinians chose intifada.
I don't mean this unkindly, but Palestinians seem to be incapable of having effective leadership. They choose Hamas. They choose Islamic Jihad. They choose the Palestinian Authority, one of the most corrupt parties in the world. Back on the day, the chose the PLO - murdering Olympic athletes, hijacking airplanes, causing a civil war in Lebanon, assassinating Prime Ministers in Jordan, supporting the invasion of Kuwait.
I mean, what is there to say. If they had chosen a Gandhi or a MLK, they would have had a state for a long time now. But they don't. They always choose terrorism, violence, corruption, fanaticism. How do you work with this?
Serious question: How do you keep a straight face pretending that someone like Bibi would have EVER allowed the establishment of a Palestinian state of any kind over the past 27 years? Seriously, how do you do it?
i think Netanyahu and Likud are terrible.
Israelis are genuinely stupid for going with this. There are a lot of extremists in Israel. I mean they murdered Yitzhak Rabin for goodness sake. Israelis are not ipso facto wonderful people.
But Palestinians are dumber
They've had numerous chances for a good, independent state. And they've rejected all of them.
I mean, what is there to do? Who the hell do you even negotiate with?
Palestinians have been idiots for 80 years. That's the problem. They think massacring a 1000+ innocent people and kidnapping hundreds of others is a great idea.
Yeah, well, that was a terrible idea and they are paying the consequences
Israelis aren't wonderful, but Palestinians are literally the dumbest people on the planet. They chose this.
How are Palestinians dumber? Bibi literally funds Hamas while elderly Holocaust survivors barely have enough to eat in Israel. That’s smart ?
Do you think Palestinians would ever support Ben Gvir or the right wing Kahanists/extremists and give them money to create settlements in the West Bank? They wouldn’t but Israel playing with fire until it got burned by Hamas
Your assumption is that Palestinians are docile idiots that got played by Netanyahu. And that Hamas is nothing more than a fabrication created by Israel.
Yeah, well, no.
Israelis made a terrible mistake electing this government. And they recognize that now. Netanyahu is polling at 4 percent presently. He'll be done once there are elections again. And there will be an investigation about the security failures that led to 10/7.
But Palestinians? Optimistically, this war ends when Sinwar is dead. Realistically, nothing ends until Palestinians choose some decent leaders. And they've shown no capacity to do so.
Israel has every right to destroy Hamas. Palestinians in Gaza chose war. It's brutal. It's unfair. But this is what Palestinians in Gaza chose for themselves. If you don't like the consequences, maybe don't invade and massacre and rape and kidnap a bunch of innocent people. And maybe choose better leaders. Every death is on the Palestinians in Gaza. They chose poorly - as they always seem to do.
Israel, because it's a democracy and notably nearly 25 percent Arab, will correct itself. But if Palestinians continue to choose Islamic extremists like Hamas or corrupt dinosaurs like the PA, well, things are going to continue to be a little hopeless. It's all up to the Palestinian people.
Easy to justify your pro-Israel views by calling Palestinians stupid but I doubt that they are any more stupid than you or me. All people want the same thing - safety, security, food, housing, jobs, a future for their children. They were offered bad deals - end of story.
They didn't love their children enough to choose peace, apparently.
I hate what is happening in Gaza - but come on. Palestinians are not babies who never had a choice in their whole lives. Don't belittle them by making them that passive and incompetent. They made choices - and those choices have consequences. I'm not excusing everything Israel did - but do you think for one second that any other country would have done things differently than what Israel did after 10/7? If so please point me toward one example.
I think there were other paths that Israel could have taken. Treating Palestinians like they are vermin to be crushed and pushed out of the way has gone pretty well for Israel but is still causing major problems. Jewish people have gotten far by intimidation. If you speak up against Israel you get silenced or doxed. This strategy is not working as well as it did in the past. Who knows what the future holds?
Well obviously Israel is not going to go with the do nothing in response because we deserve it strategy or the now give Palestinians what they want because they sure showed us strategy.
But you actually didn't respond to the what should have Israel done after 10/7 question actually your response was along the lines of why they deserved it.
What does the future hold--more people in Gaza dying.
They should have gone after Hamas leadership before doing anything else.
But wow, that was a pretty blasé final comment. Your indifference to human suffering is fascinating.
I’m not sure I can ever come to understand how people who were trembling on their knees to be saved by the world just 80 years ago could have taken such a vicious “Hold my beer” strategy to new lows, but I guess some people never learn.
Not the previous poster.
The world is not a James Bond movie. I'm sure the multi-millionaire Hamas leadership in Qatar are dead men walking. Mossad will get them eventually, as they did with the terrorists that murdered athletes at the Olympics at Munich. Eichmann etc. Mossad will kill them in the end. It's probably not a great time for Hamas leaders to get on one of their private jets in Doha. The Prigozhin solution is always there.
But it will take time. These are not simple operations.
In the meantime, getting Yahya Sinwar, the head of Hamas in Gaza, is critical. I'm hopeful that military operations end when he's dead
And Israel is right to defend itself. Palestinians in Gaza invaded Israel and did what they did. They chose war. And war is what they're getting.
You expect Israelis to simply take these atrocities? Yeah, not happening. Palestinians have been given their own state several times. Always rejected. Instead they always choose terror. I mean, 80 years of this. How do you possibly negotiate with Palestinians?
Given
Cool, I wonder what your welcome would look like if someone dropped by to take possession of your property tomorrow morning, magnanimously subdivided it, and “gave” about 45% of it back to you (bad news: the house will have to shared).
I suspect we wouldn’t be able to count on you to organize a ticker tape parade in their honor later in the week.
DP. I reject your flawed framing, but to play along, maybe they should be nicer to people who have an even longer claim to the land. Or at least not go for whatever fascistic fanaticism Hamas is selling.
Israelis have a longer claim to the land in the same sense that I have a right to kick out whoever currently lives in my Italian great -grandfather's pre-immigration home.
Nah, it’s much different from your weird analogy.
It really isn't.
Did the UN proclaim your relative’s house a nation-state over 70 years ago?
Israel is free to do whatever it damn wants which seems to be to kill as many Palestinians as possible but in that case Jewish people should stop acting shocked when the rest of the world views Israel as a heartless, cold blooded nation with no soul
This is the most common sense thing I have read about what is going on...and a few years ago it would not all have had to been said, but progressives have distored common sense.
Okay. Two things.
1. It is illogical to say "bad things happen and people get moved all the time" but conclude this with "Israel is here to stay". If things change and people move, they can change for Israel too.
2. "Everyone comes to an accommodation" not by hugs and kisses, but through restoration of rights. There is a reason Jews can reclaim stolen and compensated property in many places in Europe - because people acknowledged that what happened to them was unjust. They weren't told to just get over it. Israel restores pre-1948 property to Jews who can prove ownership. Not to Arabs, mind you. Never to Arabs. You come to an accommodation when the party that wronged you acknowledges the wrong and makes an effort to compensate for the wrong. "Get over it" is not an accommodation.
3. I find it terribly ironic when people parrot the line of "Palestinians were offered their own state on three different occasions!" but you press them for details and turns out they don't know crap about what was actually offered.
DP.
I know exactly what was offered on each occasion and think that the following is inarguably true:
1. The Palestinians will not get a better deal in the future than what they’ve previously been offered.
2. The Palestinian people would be FAR better off today had they accepted any of the previous offers.
By any measure of real world impact, the Palestinian leadership has chosen poorly.
Yes they have.
During decolonization, they were given a very nice state that stretched from the border with Lebanon to the Negev. Hills. Forests, a good coastline on the Mediterranean. Towns like Nazareth and Hebron. Olive groves. But they chose war instead.
In 1993, with the Oslo Accords, they were given all of Gaza and 97 percent of the West Bank. Israel would have compensated the remaining 3 percent with their own lands. All the West Bank settlers would have been long gone by now.
Instead, Palestinians chose intifada.
I don't mean this unkindly, but Palestinians seem to be incapable of having effective leadership. They choose Hamas. They choose Islamic Jihad. They choose the Palestinian Authority, one of the most corrupt parties in the world. Back on the day, the chose the PLO - murdering Olympic athletes, hijacking airplanes, causing a civil war in Lebanon, assassinating Prime Ministers in Jordan, supporting the invasion of Kuwait.
I mean, what is there to say. If they had chosen a Gandhi or a MLK, they would have had a state for a long time now. But they don't. They always choose terrorism, violence, corruption, fanaticism. How do you work with this?
Serious question: How do you keep a straight face pretending that someone like Bibi would have EVER allowed the establishment of a Palestinian state of any kind over the past 27 years? Seriously, how do you do it?
i think Netanyahu and Likud are terrible.
Israelis are genuinely stupid for going with this. There are a lot of extremists in Israel. I mean they murdered Yitzhak Rabin for goodness sake. Israelis are not ipso facto wonderful people.
But Palestinians are dumber
They've had numerous chances for a good, independent state. And they've rejected all of them.
I mean, what is there to do? Who the hell do you even negotiate with?
Palestinians have been idiots for 80 years. That's the problem. They think massacring a 1000+ innocent people and kidnapping hundreds of others is a great idea.
Yeah, well, that was a terrible idea and they are paying the consequences
Israelis aren't wonderful, but Palestinians are literally the dumbest people on the planet. They chose this.
How are Palestinians dumber? Bibi literally funds Hamas while elderly Holocaust survivors barely have enough to eat in Israel. That’s smart ?
Do you think Palestinians would ever support Ben Gvir or the right wing Kahanists/extremists and give them money to create settlements in the West Bank? They wouldn’t but Israel playing with fire until it got burned by Hamas
Your assumption is that Palestinians are docile idiots that got played by Netanyahu. And that Hamas is nothing more than a fabrication created by Israel.
Yeah, well, no.
Israelis made a terrible mistake electing this government. And they recognize that now. Netanyahu is polling at 4 percent presently. He'll be done once there are elections again. And there will be an investigation about the security failures that led to 10/7.
But Palestinians? Optimistically, this war ends when Sinwar is dead. Realistically, nothing ends until Palestinians choose some decent leaders. And they've shown no capacity to do so.
Israel has every right to destroy Hamas. Palestinians in Gaza chose war. It's brutal. It's unfair. But this is what Palestinians in Gaza chose for themselves. If you don't like the consequences, maybe don't invade and massacre and rape and kidnap a bunch of innocent people. And maybe choose better leaders. Every death is on the Palestinians in Gaza. They chose poorly - as they always seem to do.
Israel, because it's a democracy and notably nearly 25 percent Arab, will correct itself. But if Palestinians continue to choose Islamic extremists like Hamas or corrupt dinosaurs like the PA, well, things are going to continue to be a little hopeless. It's all up to the Palestinian people.
Easy to justify your pro-Israel views by calling Palestinians stupid but I doubt that they are any more stupid than you or me. All people want the same thing - safety, security, food, housing, jobs, a future for their children. They were offered bad deals - end of story.
They didn't love their children enough to choose peace, apparently.
I hate what is happening in Gaza - but come on. Palestinians are not babies who never had a choice in their whole lives. Don't belittle them by making them that passive and incompetent. They made choices - and those choices have consequences. I'm not excusing everything Israel did - but do you think for one second that any other country would have done things differently than what Israel did after 10/7? If so please point me toward one example.
I think there were other paths that Israel could have taken. Treating Palestinians like they are vermin to be crushed and pushed out of the way has gone pretty well for Israel but is still causing major problems. Jewish people have gotten far by intimidation. If you speak up against Israel you get silenced or doxed. This strategy is not working as well as it did in the past. Who knows what the future holds?
Well obviously Israel is not going to go with the do nothing in response because we deserve it strategy or the now give Palestinians what they want because they sure showed us strategy.
But you actually didn't respond to the what should have Israel done after 10/7 question actually your response was along the lines of why they deserved it.
What does the future hold--more people in Gaza dying.
They should have gone after Hamas leadership before doing anything else.
But wow, that was a pretty blasé final comment. Your indifference to human suffering is fascinating.
I’m not sure I can ever come to understand how people who were trembling on their knees to be saved by the world just 80 years ago could have taken such a vicious “Hold my beer” strategy to new lows, but I guess some people never learn.
Not the previous poster.
The world is not a James Bond movie. I'm sure the multi-millionaire Hamas leadership in Qatar are dead men walking. Mossad will get them eventually, as they did with the terrorists that murdered athletes at the Olympics at Munich. Eichmann etc. Mossad will kill them in the end. It's probably not a great time for Hamas leaders to get on one of their private jets in Doha. The Prigozhin solution is always there.
But it will take time. These are not simple operations.
In the meantime, getting Yahya Sinwar, the head of Hamas in Gaza, is critical. I'm hopeful that military operations end when he's dead
And Israel is right to defend itself. Palestinians in Gaza invaded Israel and did what they did. They chose war. And war is what they're getting.
You expect Israelis to simply take these atrocities? Yeah, not happening. Palestinians have been given their own state several times. Always rejected. Instead they always choose terror. I mean, 80 years of this. How do you possibly negotiate with Palestinians?
Given
Cool, I wonder what your welcome would look like if someone dropped by to take possession of your property tomorrow morning, magnanimously subdivided it, and “gave” about 45% of it back to you (bad news: the house will have to shared).
I suspect we wouldn’t be able to count on you to organize a ticker tape parade in their honor later in the week.
DP. I reject your flawed framing, but to play along, maybe they should be nicer to people who have an even longer claim to the land. Or at least not go for whatever fascistic fanaticism Hamas is selling.
Israelis have a longer claim to the land in the same sense that I have a right to kick out whoever currently lives in my Italian great -grandfather's pre-immigration home.
Nah, it’s much different from your weird analogy.
Because of the whole god given, chosen people fairytale?
No. Because Jews have lived there for 3000 years.
And now now, if you are going to toss the fairy tale take around, you’ll have to do it for Islam and Christianity too.
Anonymous wrote:People are acting like those who oppose the IDF's actions are somehow pro-Hamas. We are not. October 7th was evil. Horrifically so. But what is going on now? Also evil. Scorched earth warfare is evil. Killing civilians is evil. Letting babies die in hospitals is evil. Setting food supplies on fire is evil. Every rational person was filled with grief and outrage at the straight up demonic acts committed on October 7th. But that doesn't mean it's 100% okay to do whatever you want in retaliation with no regard for innocent human life.
IDF was never applying “scorched earth warfare.” And it is hardly bombing anything anymore, other than drone strikes on terrorists who surface above ground. The IDF shows more regard for human life than its psychopathic enemies would in 1,000 lifetimes.
Yes, yes, killing women sheltering in a Catholic Church and shooting dead at point blank range a journalist documenting the dead babies killed by the IDF.
HUGE regard for innocent human life.
No idea about those allegations. This is a hugely stressful urban warfare environment against a sadistic enemy that turned Gaza into the world’s largest military fortification. Israel is fighting with one hand tied behind its back and exposing its soldiers to greater risk as a result of US instructions. Its soldiers are human too.
Now the Pope and the Associated Press are lying (the Pope spoke on the church murders this morning, and the AP has also reported on the church killings and the journalist assassination), joining the U.N., the Irish, and anyone who expresses concern for the atrocities occurring in Gaza since 10/7 (and who also expressed outrage for the atrocities that occurred in Israel on 10/7) as unreliable sources.
FFS, do you hear yourself? What level of dishonesty is too far for you?
The IDF isn’t fighting with one hand behind its back. It’s fighting with an insurmountable set of advantages gifted by America. GTFOH with this largest military fortification nonsense, too. It’s just that the guiding principle of your military is vengeance, your personnel is comprised of amateurs who are scared to fight on level footing, they are poorly led, and they are operating without any pretense of accountability.
Word salad.
Genocidal White Supremacist says what?
What a strange, baseless accusation.
Didn’t see anything after “what”.
Checks out.
Nope. It’s impossible to respond to a word salad rant. But ok, here’s one thing. A “level footing” against Hamas would be hiding behind women and children, as Hamas does, or hiding in billions of dollars of tunnels, as Hamas does. No need to play by psychopathic terrorists’ rules, right?
Hamas sucks. No like. Down with Hamas. Too much death. Also down with bad IDF.
Is that less word salad-y for you? I mean, I know it doesn’t fit your attempt to shout down posts you don’t like as “crazy”. But otherwise OK?
Hey bro, it’s your post. You say “down with bad IDF.” I don’t see it that way. But you do you.
You label views that upset the “Israel is righteous” apple cart as word salad to try to derail the point being made.
Don’t hit the ripcord now. It’s a dirty, sleazy tactic, but you should own it.
The points are unpersuasive. Maybe read more widely?
Israel is free to do whatever it damn wants which seems to be to kill as many Palestinians as possible but in that case Jewish people should stop acting shocked when the rest of the world views Israel as a heartless, cold blooded nation with no soul
This is the most common sense thing I have read about what is going on...and a few years ago it would not all have had to been said, but progressives have distored common sense.
Okay. Two things.
1. It is illogical to say "bad things happen and people get moved all the time" but conclude this with "Israel is here to stay". If things change and people move, they can change for Israel too.
2. "Everyone comes to an accommodation" not by hugs and kisses, but through restoration of rights. There is a reason Jews can reclaim stolen and compensated property in many places in Europe - because people acknowledged that what happened to them was unjust. They weren't told to just get over it. Israel restores pre-1948 property to Jews who can prove ownership. Not to Arabs, mind you. Never to Arabs. You come to an accommodation when the party that wronged you acknowledges the wrong and makes an effort to compensate for the wrong. "Get over it" is not an accommodation.
3. I find it terribly ironic when people parrot the line of "Palestinians were offered their own state on three different occasions!" but you press them for details and turns out they don't know crap about what was actually offered.
DP.
I know exactly what was offered on each occasion and think that the following is inarguably true:
1. The Palestinians will not get a better deal in the future than what they’ve previously been offered.
2. The Palestinian people would be FAR better off today had they accepted any of the previous offers.
By any measure of real world impact, the Palestinian leadership has chosen poorly.
Yes they have.
During decolonization, they were given a very nice state that stretched from the border with Lebanon to the Negev. Hills. Forests, a good coastline on the Mediterranean. Towns like Nazareth and Hebron. Olive groves. But they chose war instead.
In 1993, with the Oslo Accords, they were given all of Gaza and 97 percent of the West Bank. Israel would have compensated the remaining 3 percent with their own lands. All the West Bank settlers would have been long gone by now.
Instead, Palestinians chose intifada.
I don't mean this unkindly, but Palestinians seem to be incapable of having effective leadership. They choose Hamas. They choose Islamic Jihad. They choose the Palestinian Authority, one of the most corrupt parties in the world. Back on the day, the chose the PLO - murdering Olympic athletes, hijacking airplanes, causing a civil war in Lebanon, assassinating Prime Ministers in Jordan, supporting the invasion of Kuwait.
I mean, what is there to say. If they had chosen a Gandhi or a MLK, they would have had a state for a long time now. But they don't. They always choose terrorism, violence, corruption, fanaticism. How do you work with this?
Serious question: How do you keep a straight face pretending that someone like Bibi would have EVER allowed the establishment of a Palestinian state of any kind over the past 27 years? Seriously, how do you do it?
i think Netanyahu and Likud are terrible.
Israelis are genuinely stupid for going with this. There are a lot of extremists in Israel. I mean they murdered Yitzhak Rabin for goodness sake. Israelis are not ipso facto wonderful people.
But Palestinians are dumber
They've had numerous chances for a good, independent state. And they've rejected all of them.
I mean, what is there to do? Who the hell do you even negotiate with?
Palestinians have been idiots for 80 years. That's the problem. They think massacring a 1000+ innocent people and kidnapping hundreds of others is a great idea.
Yeah, well, that was a terrible idea and they are paying the consequences
Israelis aren't wonderful, but Palestinians are literally the dumbest people on the planet. They chose this.
How are Palestinians dumber? Bibi literally funds Hamas while elderly Holocaust survivors barely have enough to eat in Israel. That’s smart ?
Do you think Palestinians would ever support Ben Gvir or the right wing Kahanists/extremists and give them money to create settlements in the West Bank? They wouldn’t but Israel playing with fire until it got burned by Hamas
Your assumption is that Palestinians are docile idiots that got played by Netanyahu. And that Hamas is nothing more than a fabrication created by Israel.
Yeah, well, no.
Israelis made a terrible mistake electing this government. And they recognize that now. Netanyahu is polling at 4 percent presently. He'll be done once there are elections again. And there will be an investigation about the security failures that led to 10/7.
But Palestinians? Optimistically, this war ends when Sinwar is dead. Realistically, nothing ends until Palestinians choose some decent leaders. And they've shown no capacity to do so.
Israel has every right to destroy Hamas. Palestinians in Gaza chose war. It's brutal. It's unfair. But this is what Palestinians in Gaza chose for themselves. If you don't like the consequences, maybe don't invade and massacre and rape and kidnap a bunch of innocent people. And maybe choose better leaders. Every death is on the Palestinians in Gaza. They chose poorly - as they always seem to do.
Israel, because it's a democracy and notably nearly 25 percent Arab, will correct itself. But if Palestinians continue to choose Islamic extremists like Hamas or corrupt dinosaurs like the PA, well, things are going to continue to be a little hopeless. It's all up to the Palestinian people.
Easy to justify your pro-Israel views by calling Palestinians stupid but I doubt that they are any more stupid than you or me. All people want the same thing - safety, security, food, housing, jobs, a future for their children. They were offered bad deals - end of story.
They didn't love their children enough to choose peace, apparently.
I hate what is happening in Gaza - but come on. Palestinians are not babies who never had a choice in their whole lives. Don't belittle them by making them that passive and incompetent. They made choices - and those choices have consequences. I'm not excusing everything Israel did - but do you think for one second that any other country would have done things differently than what Israel did after 10/7? If so please point me toward one example.
I think there were other paths that Israel could have taken. Treating Palestinians like they are vermin to be crushed and pushed out of the way has gone pretty well for Israel but is still causing major problems. Jewish people have gotten far by intimidation. If you speak up against Israel you get silenced or doxed. This strategy is not working as well as it did in the past. Who knows what the future holds?
Well obviously Israel is not going to go with the do nothing in response because we deserve it strategy or the now give Palestinians what they want because they sure showed us strategy.
But you actually didn't respond to the what should have Israel done after 10/7 question actually your response was along the lines of why they deserved it.
What does the future hold--more people in Gaza dying.
They should have gone after Hamas leadership before doing anything else.
But wow, that was a pretty blasé final comment. Your indifference to human suffering is fascinating.
I’m not sure I can ever come to understand how people who were trembling on their knees to be saved by the world just 80 years ago could have taken such a vicious “Hold my beer” strategy to new lows, but I guess some people never learn.
Not the previous poster.
The world is not a James Bond movie. I'm sure the multi-millionaire Hamas leadership in Qatar are dead men walking. Mossad will get them eventually, as they did with the terrorists that murdered athletes at the Olympics at Munich. Eichmann etc. Mossad will kill them in the end. It's probably not a great time for Hamas leaders to get on one of their private jets in Doha. The Prigozhin solution is always there.
But it will take time. These are not simple operations.
In the meantime, getting Yahya Sinwar, the head of Hamas in Gaza, is critical. I'm hopeful that military operations end when he's dead
And Israel is right to defend itself. Palestinians in Gaza invaded Israel and did what they did. They chose war. And war is what they're getting.
You expect Israelis to simply take these atrocities? Yeah, not happening. Palestinians have been given their own state several times. Always rejected. Instead they always choose terror. I mean, 80 years of this. How do you possibly negotiate with Palestinians?
Given
Cool, I wonder what your welcome would look like if someone dropped by to take possession of your property tomorrow morning, magnanimously subdivided it, and “gave” about 45% of it back to you (bad news: the house will have to shared).
I suspect we wouldn’t be able to count on you to organize a ticker tape parade in their honor later in the week.
DP. I reject your flawed framing, but to play along, maybe they should be nicer to people who have an even longer claim to the land. Or at least not go for whatever fascistic fanaticism Hamas is selling.
Longer claim?
I’d ask for their papers, but I don’t read Ukrainian or Polish so I’d have to take most of them at their word that they have an actual claim to the land, despite resembling nobody else from the neighborhood. And despite failing every genealogical test imaginable.
Jews go back 3,000 years there. Kinda a well established thing.
They left. You don't get to leave and then have your descendants waltz back in and demand "your" land back.
Forum Index
»
Political Discussion
![[Post New]](/jforum/templates/default/images/icon_minipost_new.gif){kind=icon}