Race in college admissions is back in front of the Supreme Court Oral Argument on Oct. 31 (Monday)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The statistics are striking: Though African immigrants, many of them from Nigeria and Ghana, make up less than 1 percent of America's total population, first- and second-generation black immigrants comprise 41 percent of all black students at Ivy League schools, according to 2007 research from teams at Princeton and Penn.

https://www.jbhe.com/news_views/52_harvard-blackstudents.html

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/26/opinion/sunday/what-drives-success.html

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.good.is/amp/ivy-league-fooled-how-america-s-top-colleges-avoid-real-diversity-2639585491


Why bonus points for rich Black immigrants from Nigeria and Ghana

Representation.

Do you think having a black President mattered? Did it change any perceptions of who could be president?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

We get that is the argument, but what is the solution that is more fair? I see both ways but tests are at least somewhat objective. And I have been on BOTH sides of the aisle here, growing up poor, first gen, no test prep options vs. what I can now offer my kid.

"more fair"?

Basketball players are judge by how well they play basketball
Dancers are judged by how well they dance
Legacies are judged by how well they help fund the school and if they will provide connections to current students
Some kids are judged by SAT scores
Some kids are judged by the fact they started a movement after somebody shot up their school


If you want to be in the top 5% there are many ways to do that and GPA and SAT is only one way. Stop using that measure to say the other kids were not qualified.
If 20 kids are great basketball players the coach picks the 5 he wants, you don't have to understand why he picked those 5 kids. I don't care if you scored more baskets than the 5 he chose.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

If this is waht some people look at Math and English, we got a problem.

You have not spent enough time on dcum. Read some of the private school threads about how much better, stronger, more rigorous, more advantageous, is the education available to private school kids. The entire argument is that kids should go because they will be by far best prepared to " climb the tree".

My Asian kids went to overcrowded public schools of course because I don't have money to send them to private schools.
I believe tests are still the most objective and fair measure.
The world is never going to be perfectly fair and leveled. Welcome to the real world.

Of course not. But if the fish makes it to the first branch, that is as or more impressive than the monkey getting all the way to the top

Impressive doesn't mean qualified.
Help the fish equiped to compete is the solution.

Going to an excellent college is helping the fish to compete.

Sure there are many many excellent colleges, and the fish can go to one of the excellent colleges at its level.

he does, it's Harvard, that is his level

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:I really hope that the downfall of AA will support the current shift in enrollment from white institutions to HBCUs. Black students have options (formed by necessity) so they will be fine.

I thought diversity was important.
Why would you go to a school with 80+% of the same race.

Important to who? It's not at all important to me. I get nothing out of it. In fact it imposes significant costs on me.

I would go to school "with 80+% of the same race" because school is about learning not about being around other races.

Yes, school is about learning, but much of the learning that school is about takes place outside of the classroom. Students learn a lot from their fellow students; they learn many things that will be important to take forward into their adult lives.

College admissions officers know this. That is why they want to put together diverse classes where all the students can learn different lessons from each other.

Nebulous concept.
Please share the long-term studies with statistics (GPA, GRE/LSAT/MCAT scores, postgraduate study acceptance rates, graduation rates, avg starting salaries, etc.) proving "diverse" classes foster a climate of success for ALL students.

Why not provide a study that shows it doesn’t?

+1 Anyone who's attended college in this country and has an open mind knows that we all benefit from learning in a diverse environment. Those who've gone in other countries where 95%+ of the students are of one race have no clue what the value is.

Where’s the data? Where are the studies? Explain the “value” to the successful STEM students in the PRC who end up here.

I guess I’m confused about your request about PRC stem students who end up here. Not relevant to the conversation. We are talking about diversity at elite American universities. If they are not interested in that type of environment, presumable they will go to school in the 90% of countries where the student body is homogeneous. Also, why do we only talk about stem students? I’m sick of only talking about math scores. Let’s talk about the stem students who have poor English scores and can’t write. Are they unqualified?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

If this is waht some people look at Math and English, we got a problem.

You have not spent enough time on dcum. Read some of the private school threads about how much better, stronger, more rigorous, more advantageous, is the education available to private school kids. The entire argument is that kids should go because they will be by far best prepared to " climb the tree".

My Asian kids went to overcrowded public schools of course because I don't have money to send them to private schools.
I believe tests are still the most objective and fair measure.
The world is never going to be perfectly fair and leveled. Welcome to the real world.

Of course not. But if the fish makes it to the first branch, that is as or more impressive than the monkey getting all the way to the top

Impressive doesn't mean qualified.
Help the fish equiped to compete is the solution.

Going to an excellent college is helping the fish to compete.

shoving in underqualifed fish on top of the tree is not the solution.

That’s the fallacy. This fish is plenty qualified. Nobody is choosing anyone unqualified.

Sorry monkey is more qualified. Fish is still less qualified although looking impressive.

Let's help fish!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

If this is waht some people look at Math and English, we got a problem.

You have not spent enough time on dcum. Read some of the private school threads about how much better, stronger, more rigorous, more advantageous, is the education available to private school kids. The entire argument is that kids should go because they will be by far best prepared to " climb the tree".

My Asian kids went to overcrowded public schools of course because I don't have money to send them to private schools.
I believe tests are still the most objective and fair measure.
The world is never going to be perfectly fair and leveled. Welcome to the real world.

Of course not. But if the fish makes it to the first branch, that is as or more impressive than the monkey getting all the way to the top

Impressive doesn't mean qualified.
Help the fish equiped to compete is the solution.

Going to an excellent college is helping the fish to compete.

shoving in underqualifed fish on top of the tree is not the solution.

That’s the fallacy. This fish is plenty qualified. Nobody is choosing anyone unqualified.

Sorry monkey is more qualified. Fish is still less qualified although looking impressive.

Let's help fish!

Can the monkey even swim? Maybe tree climbing is not all that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

We get that is the argument, but what is the solution that is more fair? I see both ways but tests are at least somewhat objective. And I have been on BOTH sides of the aisle here, growing up poor, first gen, no test prep options vs. what I can now offer my kid.

"more fair"?

Basketball players are judge by how well they play basketball
Dancers are judged by how well they dance
Legacies are judged by how well they help fund the school and if they will provide connections to current students
Some kids are judged by SAT scores
Some kids are judged by the fact they started a movement after somebody shot up their school


If you want to be in the top 5% there are many ways to do that and GPA and SAT is only one way. Stop using that measure to say the other kids were not qualified.
If 20 kids are great basketball players the coach picks the 5 he wants, you don't have to understand why he picked those 5 kids. I don't care if you scored more baskets than the 5 he chose.

Did the coach picked its players based on skin color? Then expect huge law suit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

If this is waht some people look at Math and English, we got a problem.

You have not spent enough time on dcum. Read some of the private school threads about how much better, stronger, more rigorous, more advantageous, is the education available to private school kids. The entire argument is that kids should go because they will be by far best prepared to " climb the tree".

My Asian kids went to overcrowded public schools of course because I don't have money to send them to private schools.
I believe tests are still the most objective and fair measure.
The world is never going to be perfectly fair and leveled. Welcome to the real world.

Of course not. But if the fish makes it to the first branch, that is as or more impressive than the monkey getting all the way to the top

Impressive doesn't mean qualified.
Help the fish equiped to compete is the solution.

Going to an excellent college is helping the fish to compete.

shoving in underqualifed fish on top of the tree is not the solution.

That’s the fallacy. This fish is plenty qualified. Nobody is choosing anyone unqualified.

Sorry monkey is more qualified. Fish is still less qualified although looking impressive.

Let's help fish!

Can the monkey even swim? Maybe tree climbing is not all that.

Fish can give up the 'tree' and go to what it's best at.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

If this is waht some people look at Math and English, we got a problem.

You have not spent enough time on dcum. Read some of the private school threads about how much better, stronger, more rigorous, more advantageous, is the education available to private school kids. The entire argument is that kids should go because they will be by far best prepared to " climb the tree".

My Asian kids went to overcrowded public schools of course because I don't have money to send them to private schools.
I believe tests are still the most objective and fair measure.
The world is never going to be perfectly fair and leveled. Welcome to the real world.

Of course not. But if the fish makes it to the first branch, that is as or more impressive than the monkey getting all the way to the top

Impressive doesn't mean qualified.
Help the fish equiped to compete is the solution.

Going to an excellent college is helping the fish to compete.

shoving in underqualifed fish on top of the tree is not the solution.

That’s the fallacy. This fish is plenty qualified. Nobody is choosing anyone unqualified.

Sorry monkey is more qualified. Fish is still less qualified although looking impressive.

Let's help fish!

Everyone meets a benchmark if qualification and has the capability to succeed the difference between a 1450 and a 1600 is not significant for educational achievement and there are other factors. No one is getting in sub 1000 or anything like that. The kids are all qualified.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

If this is waht some people look at Math and English, we got a problem.

You have not spent enough time on dcum. Read some of the private school threads about how much better, stronger, more rigorous, more advantageous, is the education available to private school kids. The entire argument is that kids should go because they will be by far best prepared to " climb the tree".

My Asian kids went to overcrowded public schools of course because I don't have money to send them to private schools.
I believe tests are still the most objective and fair measure.
The world is never going to be perfectly fair and leveled. Welcome to the real world.

Of course not. But if the fish makes it to the first branch, that is as or more impressive than the monkey getting all the way to the top

Impressive doesn't mean qualified.
Help the fish equiped to compete is the solution.

Going to an excellent college is helping the fish to compete.

shoving in underqualifed fish on top of the tree is not the solution.

That’s the fallacy. This fish is plenty qualified. Nobody is choosing anyone unqualified.

Sorry monkey is more qualified. Fish is still less qualified although looking impressive.

Let's help fish!

Everyone meets a benchmark if qualification and has the capability to succeed the difference between a 1450 and a 1600 is not significant for educational achievement and there are other factors. No one is getting in sub 1000 or anything like that. The kids are all qualified.

1. The 1600 kid is also good if not better in other factors.
2. Other factor must not be race and racial discrimination.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

If this is waht some people look at Math and English, we got a problem.

You have not spent enough time on dcum. Read some of the private school threads about how much better, stronger, more rigorous, more advantageous, is the education available to private school kids. The entire argument is that kids should go because they will be by far best prepared to " climb the tree".

My Asian kids went to overcrowded public schools of course because I don't have money to send them to private schools.
I believe tests are still the most objective and fair measure.
The world is never going to be perfectly fair and leveled. Welcome to the real world.

Of course not. But if the fish makes it to the first branch, that is as or more impressive than the monkey getting all the way to the top

Impressive doesn't mean qualified.
Help the fish equiped to compete is the solution.

Going to an excellent college is helping the fish to compete.

shoving in underqualifed fish on top of the tree is not the solution.

That’s the fallacy. This fish is plenty qualified. Nobody is choosing anyone unqualified.

Sorry monkey is more qualified. Fish is still less qualified although looking impressive.

Let's help fish!

Can the monkey even swim? Maybe tree climbing is not all that.

Fish can give up the 'tree' and go to what it's best at.

i.e. recruited athlete in swimming.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

If this is waht some people look at Math and English, we got a problem.

You have not spent enough time on dcum. Read some of the private school threads about how much better, stronger, more rigorous, more advantageous, is the education available to private school kids. The entire argument is that kids should go because they will be by far best prepared to " climb the tree".

My Asian kids went to overcrowded public schools of course because I don't have money to send them to private schools.
I believe tests are still the most objective and fair measure.
The world is never going to be perfectly fair and leveled. Welcome to the real world.

Of course not. But if the fish makes it to the first branch, that is as or more impressive than the monkey getting all the way to the top

Impressive doesn't mean qualified.
Help the fish equiped to compete is the solution.

Going to an excellent college is helping the fish to compete.

shoving in underqualifed fish on top of the tree is not the solution.

That’s the fallacy. This fish is plenty qualified. Nobody is choosing anyone unqualified.

Sorry monkey is more qualified. Fish is still less qualified although looking impressive.

Let's help fish!

Everyone meets a benchmark if qualification and has the capability to succeed the difference between a 1450 and a 1600 is not significant for educational achievement and there are other factors. No one is getting in sub 1000 or anything like that. The kids are all qualified.

Who knows, with test optional, a sub 1000 with good grades and a nice story may get in now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

If this is waht some people look at Math and English, we got a problem.

You have not spent enough time on dcum. Read some of the private school threads about how much better, stronger, more rigorous, more advantageous, is the education available to private school kids. The entire argument is that kids should go because they will be by far best prepared to " climb the tree".

My Asian kids went to overcrowded public schools of course because I don't have money to send them to private schools.
I believe tests are still the most objective and fair measure.
The world is never going to be perfectly fair and leveled. Welcome to the real world.

Of course not. But if the fish makes it to the first branch, that is as or more impressive than the monkey getting all the way to the top

Impressive doesn't mean qualified.
Help the fish equiped to compete is the solution.

Going to an excellent college is helping the fish to compete.

shoving in underqualifed fish on top of the tree is not the solution.

That’s the fallacy. This fish is plenty qualified. Nobody is choosing anyone unqualified.

Sorry monkey is more qualified. Fish is still less qualified although looking impressive.

Let's help fish!

Everyone meets a benchmark if qualification and has the capability to succeed the difference between a 1450 and a 1600 is not significant for educational achievement and there are other factors. No one is getting in sub 1000 or anything like that. The kids are all qualified.

1. The 1600 kid is also good if not better in other factors.
2. Other factor must not be race and racial discrimination.

I get your point. I’m just pointing out that these are not “free seats” and the kids that get in are qualified and a hundred or so points on the SAT does not make someone more qualified or entitled than someone else.

I think if it can be established that it was on race in a way that is not permissible under law, then the lawsuit makes sense. We all know what SCOTUS is going to do. It doesn’t mean Harvard was wrong. SCOTUS will overturn precedent like they did in Roe.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

If this is waht some people look at Math and English, we got a problem.

You have not spent enough time on dcum. Read some of the private school threads about how much better, stronger, more rigorous, more advantageous, is the education available to private school kids. The entire argument is that kids should go because they will be by far best prepared to " climb the tree".

My Asian kids went to overcrowded public schools of course because I don't have money to send them to private schools.
I believe tests are still the most objective and fair measure.
The world is never going to be perfectly fair and leveled. Welcome to the real world.

Of course not. But if the fish makes it to the first branch, that is as or more impressive than the monkey getting all the way to the top

Impressive doesn't mean qualified.
Help the fish equiped to compete is the solution.

Going to an excellent college is helping the fish to compete.

shoving in underqualifed fish on top of the tree is not the solution.

That’s the fallacy. This fish is plenty qualified. Nobody is choosing anyone unqualified.

Sorry monkey is more qualified. Fish is still less qualified although looking impressive.

Let's help fish!

Can the monkey even swim? Maybe tree climbing is not all that.

Fish can give up the 'tree' and go to what it's best at.

The monkey would totally struggle in the fish's world. These decisions are subjective. The colleges value having both monkeys and fish. I suspect they will continue to value that and try to find a way to legally create that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

If this is waht some people look at Math and English, we got a problem.

You have not spent enough time on dcum. Read some of the private school threads about how much better, stronger, more rigorous, more advantageous, is the education available to private school kids. The entire argument is that kids should go because they will be by far best prepared to " climb the tree".

My Asian kids went to overcrowded public schools of course because I don't have money to send them to private schools.
I believe tests are still the most objective and fair measure.
The world is never going to be perfectly fair and leveled. Welcome to the real world.

Of course not. But if the fish makes it to the first branch, that is as or more impressive than the monkey getting all the way to the top

Impressive doesn't mean qualified.
Help the fish equiped to compete is the solution.

Going to an excellent college is helping the fish to compete.

shoving in underqualifed fish on top of the tree is not the solution.

That’s the fallacy. This fish is plenty qualified. Nobody is choosing anyone unqualified.

Sorry monkey is more qualified. Fish is still less qualified although looking impressive.

Let's help fish!

Can the monkey even swim? Maybe tree climbing is not all that.

Fish can give up the 'tree' and go to what it's best at.

The monkey would totally struggle in the fish's world. These decisions are subjective. The colleges value having both monkeys and fish. I suspect they will continue to value that and try to find a way to legally create that.

Yes please do that legally and fairly