College admissions from APS

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think you protest too much. Yorktown once was considered one of the three top public schools in the DC region. For whatever reason, it's not even close to being in that category any longer, and no one really believes families in North Arlington, which has actually gotten wealthier, are indifferent about this.

Top 3 in the DC region? When was that!?
Or do you mean top 3 in NoVa?

Definitely region.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/local/high-school-challenge-2017/

This can't be right! Where are Langley and Mclean?

A few spaces lower.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How many kids from Yorktown's Class of 2017 ended up at Ivies?

One (1) - Dartmouth.

Ouch. That's lower than TC Williams.

And it's also not true. Looking at YHS Naviance now....6 got into Cornell, 1 got into Stanford, 1 got into Brown, 2 got into Dartmouth, 3 got into Duke, etc.

That's more encouraging, although if those are acceptances and not matriculations, this may comprise only 6 actual students. Regardless, for a graduating class of 500+ where almost everyone goes onto college, these rates are really low.

YHS parent here. I know plenty of folks who think that if their kid doesn't get into HYP, UVA is the second choice. They see no reason to pay more. I don't share this belief, but it is prevalent, and can explain much of what you see.

Another YHS parent here. Many folks I know with more than two kids, won't even entertain out-of-state options. One good friend had two out of four kids at top of class. Both went to UVA and didn't even apply out of state. One had perfect SAT scores (along with other stellar accomplishments) and could have gone anywhere. He is now working at the top of his field.

Every state has kids like this (i.e., incredibly smart/accomplished kids who never bother to apply to top schools out of state), but it sounds like this is more pronounced in Virginia than in, say, Pennsylvania or Maryland or South Carolina. So it sounds that APS' low acceptance rates are explained, in part, by the fact that the kids who are applying to Top 25 Universities (ex. UVa and W&M) and Top 25 liberal arts colleges may not be the very best of the graduates from APS high schools, i.e., kids whose parents may be able to afford Ivies/NESCAC, but they don't have the grades or SATs/ACTs? I would buy that.

UVa is the #3 public college/university in the country, behind only UCLA and UC Berkley, and William & Mary is #6. Naturally this makes the in-state public effect more pronounced in Virginia than in most other states. If you don't qualify for financial aid and are in-state, it's hard to beat UVa in terms of overall value.

All good. But it's also a trap for kids who ultimately don't get into UVa or W&M. Not dissing the other VA in-state universities because I know they are solid, but it's a significant dropoff after UVa and W&M in terms of national perception.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think you protest too much. Yorktown once was considered one of the three top public schools in the DC region. For whatever reason, it's not even close to being in that category any longer, and no one really believes families in North Arlington, which has actually gotten wealthier, are indifferent about this.

Top 3 in the DC region? When was that!?
Or do you mean top 3 in NoVa?

Definitely region.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/local/high-school-challenge-2017/

This can't be right! Where are Langley and Mclean?

A few spaces lower.

So Yorktown kids are taking more AP classes, but a lower percentage of graduates are actually passing one or more AP exams than at Langley or McLean. I guess it goes along with the lower SAT scores, number of NMSFs, U.S. News ratings, etc.

Congratulations.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think you protest too much. Yorktown once was considered one of the three top public schools in the DC region. For whatever reason, it's not even close to being in that category any longer, and no one really believes families in North Arlington, which has actually gotten wealthier, are indifferent about this.

Top 3 in the DC region? When was that!?
Or do you mean top 3 in NoVa?

Definitely region.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/local/high-school-challenge-2017/

This can't be right! Where are Langley and Mclean?

A few spaces lower.

This is the Post's Jay Matthew's Challenge Index, which is a crude and misleading measure. The Challenge Index is the # of AP/IB tests taken divided by number of graduates and does yield a measure of how much kids are challenging themselves, but it says nothing about school performance. A better measure is the number of AP/IB tests PASSED divided by the number of graduates. APS' rate of passing these tests is not good. For what it's worth, the top privates in the region (Sidwell, GDS, St. Alban's) are moving away from AP classes, and the best ones limit the number of AP classes a kid can take (usually not until junior year and then a max of 2 all year, 4 total), and their passing rates are near 100%. Contrast this with W-L and YTown, where the IB and AP offerings are FANTASTIC, kids get sucked into taking them, especially if they want to pull up their GPAs, fail the tests at higher rates and end up hurting themselves in terms of college placement.

[Anonymous]

Jay Matthews and others would tell you that students, particularly those typically considered disadvantaged, benefit from challenging themselves and taking AP classes regardless of the outcome on the AP exam. So, the Challenge Index is a valid measure of how well schools are doing at encouraging less advantaged students to step up to, hopefully, a college track. For those very same reasons, overall AP pass rates will be lower at those schools than the FCPS schools were the percentages are lower.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How many kids from Yorktown's Class of 2017 ended up at Ivies?

One (1) - Dartmouth.

Ouch. That's lower than TC Williams.

And it's also not true. Looking at YHS Naviance now....6 got into Cornell, 1 got into Stanford, 1 got into Brown, 2 got into Dartmouth, 3 got into Duke, etc.

Duke is not an Ivy!!!!!! Three kids from TC Williams also got into Duke, by the way.

True. I don't have a dog in the hunt, but Duke is better than half the Ivies. Harvard, Yale and Princeton are better, but it's a stretch to say that any of the other Ivies are better than Duke.

Certainly in terms of the quantity and the quality of douchebags, Duke is better than half of the Ivies. In other areas maybe not so much.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Jay Matthews and others would tell you that students, particularly those typically considered disadvantaged, benefit from challenging themselves and taking AP classes regardless of the outcome on the AP exam. So, the Challenge Index is a valid measure of how well schools are doing at encouraging less advantaged students to step up to, hopefully, a college track. For those very same reasons, overall AP pass rates will be lower at those schools than the FCPS schools were the percentages are lower.

The Challenge Index rankings are measuring the average number of AP classes taken by graduates, and the percentage of graduates passing at least one AP exam, but not the percentage of graduates taking at least one AP class.

When you drill down, it's hard to think of any area where an APS high school looks great compared to Langley or McLean, and that won't change until APS convinces Asians that their kids will have access to opportunities comparable to AAP in FCPS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think you protest too much. Yorktown once was considered one of the three top public schools in the DC region. For whatever reason, it's not even close to being in that category any longer, and no one really believes families in North Arlington, which has actually gotten wealthier, are indifferent about this.

Top 3 in the DC region? When was that!?
Or do you mean top 3 in NoVa?

Definitely region.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/local/high-school-challenge-2017/

This can't be right! Where are Langley and Mclean?

A few spaces lower.

So Yorktown kids are taking more AP classes, but a lower percentage of graduates are actually passing one or more AP exams than at Langley or McLean. I guess it goes along with the lower SAT scores, number of NMSFs, U.S. News ratings, etc.

Congratulations.

Exactly. This list has very little correlation with academic performance, let alone college placement. The elite privates are way down this list, yet manage to send 1/3 of their grads to Ivies and use UVa and W&M as safety schools. APS kids are killing themselves to get 4.0+ GPAs to get into UVa and W&M while the elite privates are sending kids--with similar SATs/ACTs--with 3.2 GPAs to UVa and W&M. FCPS fall somewhere in between and MoCo does a bit better.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Jay Matthews and others would tell you that students, particularly those typically considered disadvantaged, benefit from challenging themselves and taking AP classes regardless of the outcome on the AP exam. So, the Challenge Index is a valid measure of how well schools are doing at encouraging less advantaged students to step up to, hopefully, a college track. For those very same reasons, overall AP pass rates will be lower at those schools than the FCPS schools were the percentages are lower.

The Challenge Index rankings are measuring the average number of AP classes taken by graduates, and the percentage of graduates passing at least one AP exam, but not the percentage of graduates taking at least one AP class.

When you drill down, it's hard to think of any area where an APS high school looks great compared to Langley or McLean, and that won't change until APS convinces Asians that their kids will have access to opportunities comparable to AAP in FCPS.

OP here, and you've indirectly gotten to the heart of my question, although I don't think that was your intent. What I was really trying to get at is whether going to APS rather than FCPS or private school is likely to hurt my kids in the application process. My children, given their same natural aptitude, their same level of parental involvement and resources, etc., are they going to get into meaningfully better colleges if they go to school elsewhere. Given how much of the discussion of the differences in admissions statistics has focused on things like whether certain populations are attracted to FCPS rather than APS, whether more top students choose to go to UVa rather than HYP, etc., it doesn't seem like there's a basis to think it does.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Jay Matthews and others would tell you that students, particularly those typically considered disadvantaged, benefit from challenging themselves and taking AP classes regardless of the outcome on the AP exam. So, the Challenge Index is a valid measure of how well schools are doing at encouraging less advantaged students to step up to, hopefully, a college track. For those very same reasons, overall AP pass rates will be lower at those schools than the FCPS schools were the percentages are lower.

Good point.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Jay Matthews and others would tell you that students, particularly those typically considered disadvantaged, benefit from challenging themselves and taking AP classes regardless of the outcome on the AP exam. So, the Challenge Index is a valid measure of how well schools are doing at encouraging less advantaged students to step up to, hopefully, a college track. For those very same reasons, overall AP pass rates will be lower at those schools than the FCPS schools were the percentages are lower.

It seems like encouraging students to challenge themselves and test their limits would be a good thing, no? Sure, some of them will try an AP class or two and not succeed, but there are probably plenty who would have assumed AP was out of their reach if the school hadn't encouraged them to give it a try. I'd rather be at a school that encouraged everyone to fulfill their potential than one that weeded out the kids who might not succeed and pushed them elsewhere so as to not mess up their AP pass rates.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Jay Matthews and others would tell you that students, particularly those typically considered disadvantaged, benefit from challenging themselves and taking AP classes regardless of the outcome on the AP exam. So, the Challenge Index is a valid measure of how well schools are doing at encouraging less advantaged students to step up to, hopefully, a college track. For those very same reasons, overall AP pass rates will be lower at those schools than the FCPS schools were the percentages are lower.

Good point.

Not really. The Challenge Index won't tell you whether there are three underprivileged kids taking three AP courses each or one kid taking nine. It only tells you the average per student.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Jay Matthews and others would tell you that students, particularly those typically considered disadvantaged, benefit from challenging themselves and taking AP classes regardless of the outcome on the AP exam. So, the Challenge Index is a valid measure of how well schools are doing at encouraging less advantaged students to step up to, hopefully, a college track. For those very same reasons, overall AP pass rates will be lower at those schools than the FCPS schools were the percentages are lower.

The Challenge Index rankings are measuring the average number of AP classes taken by graduates, and the percentage of graduates passing at least one AP exam, but not the percentage of graduates taking at least one AP class.

When you drill down, it's hard to think of any area where an APS high school looks great compared to Langley or McLean, and that won't change until APS convinces Asians that their kids will have access to opportunities comparable to AAP in FCPS.

OP here, and you've indirectly gotten to the heart of my question, although I don't think that was your intent. What I was really trying to get at is whether going to APS rather than FCPS or private school is likely to hurt my kids in the application process. My children, given their same natural aptitude, their same level of parental involvement and resources, etc., are they going to get into meaningfully better colleges if they go to school elsewhere. Given how much of the discussion of the differences in admissions statistics has focused on things like whether certain populations are attracted to FCPS rather than APS, whether more top students choose to go to UVa rather than HYP, etc., it doesn't seem like there's a basis to think it does.

There is no meaningful difference among the top 20 universities and top 20 SLACs. Differences in settings, focus, size, etc but it’s jot like going to Yale instead of Amherst is going to “meaningfully” change the trajectory of your kid’s life.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Jay Matthews and others would tell you that students, particularly those typically considered disadvantaged, benefit from challenging themselves and taking AP classes regardless of the outcome on the AP exam. So, the Challenge Index is a valid measure of how well schools are doing at encouraging less advantaged students to step up to, hopefully, a college track. For those very same reasons, overall AP pass rates will be lower at those schools than the FCPS schools were the percentages are lower.

It seems like encouraging students to challenge themselves and test their limits would be a good thing, no? Sure, some of them will try an AP class or two and not succeed, but there are probably plenty who would have assumed AP was out of their reach if the school hadn't encouraged them to give it a try. I'd rather be at a school that encouraged everyone to fulfill their potential than one that weeded out the kids who might not succeed and pushed them elsewhere so as to not mess up their AP pass rates.

It's a double-edged sword, since it's at least as likely some schools will push their kids into AP or IB courses to boost their primary Challenge Index ratings as it is that they are merely encouraging students to fulfill their potential. In any event, Matthews came up with the additional "E&E" Index to recognize schools where students are both enrolling in AP or IB classes and passing the related exams. On that score, Yorktown doesn't do poorly, but neither does it do as well as some schools in FCPS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Jay Matthews and others would tell you that students, particularly those typically considered disadvantaged, benefit from challenging themselves and taking AP classes regardless of the outcome on the AP exam. So, the Challenge Index is a valid measure of how well schools are doing at encouraging less advantaged students to step up to, hopefully, a college track. For those very same reasons, overall AP pass rates will be lower at those schools than the FCPS schools were the percentages are lower.

The Challenge Index rankings are measuring the average number of AP classes taken by graduates, and the percentage of graduates passing at least one AP exam, but not the percentage of graduates taking at least one AP class.

When you drill down, it's hard to think of any area where an APS high school looks great compared to Langley or McLean, and that won't change until APS convinces Asians that their kids will have access to opportunities comparable to AAP in FCPS.

OP here, and you've indirectly gotten to the heart of my question, although I don't think that was your intent. What I was really trying to get at is whether going to APS rather than FCPS or private school is likely to hurt my kids in the application process. My children, given their same natural aptitude, their same level of parental involvement and resources, etc., are they going to get into meaningfully better colleges if they go to school elsewhere. Given how much of the discussion of the differences in admissions statistics has focused on things like whether certain populations are attracted to FCPS rather than APS, whether more top students choose to go to UVa rather than HYP, etc., it doesn't seem like there's a basis to think it does.

If you are fine with University of South Carolina, Kentucky, Tennessee, Alabama, George Mason, VCU, Tech, Mary Washington, JMU or --as a stretch--UVa or W&M--then APS is fine. Otherwise, FCPS is a better move, and preferably McLean or Langley. Wilson (DC) and MoCo are also good options.