ok, don't crucify me.. question about financial aid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Genuine question here. I'm the PP who puts a substantial amount aside for retirement. What do you think is an appropriate amount? Do you think that I should be saving zero for retirement? Because that's pretty much the same as saying that middle-class FA shouldn't exist, because prudent parents would never take that deal.

What about people with pension plans, not 401ks? Should some kind of extra income be imputed to them?

You're making some fine judgements here. I suggest that the FA departments also care about fairness and sustainability, and that they make these decisions with their years of experience in mind.

Genuine question here. What about families that don't even have jobs providing 401ks? Or don't have enough to full pay for private, let alone even think about setting money aside for retirement? How much FA should they be getting compared to you?

Uh, they should get more. What's your point?

You do realize that the money has to come from somewhere and, even the wealthiest schools, don't have unlimited FA budgets. Everyone wants everything for free, or as close to it as possible, but that just isn't feasible.

I'm not sure of your point here. That I should feel guilty for accepting FA because then that money can't go to someone poorer? I trust that the amount of FA I was offered was fair, appropriate, and in line with the school's interests as well as ours. I think the FA office is better informed on this subject than you are.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
You do realize that the money has to come from somewhere and, even the wealthiest schools, don't have unlimited FA budgets. Everyone wants everything for free, or as close to it as possible, but that just isn't feasible.

I'm not sure of your point here. That I should feel guilty for accepting FA because then that money can't go to someone poorer? I trust that the amount of FA I was offered was fair, appropriate, and in line with the school's interests as well as ours. I think the FA office is better informed on this subject than you are.

You're free to feel as much or as much guilt as desired. The point is that schools should be allocating even more aid to those households who don't have nearly as much income, accumulated wealth, and/or assets as those who may "feel" they're middle class or not rich, but by any objective measure are still top 10 or 20 percentile in the DC area.

And your last sentence is a bare appeal to authority. It's like saying "politicians are better informed about issues and policy than you or me, so they must also be better at making decisions and passing laws that are fair and benefit their constituents."

[Anonymous]

I am sure that private schools want to have good diversity in their school body. They don't want (nor anyone should) a school filled with super rich and super poor students. It's in everyone's interests to have a socially balanced student group. Since the schools have limited FA, they give 30/40% of the aid to a few "poor" students that receive 100% tuition aid. Then they give another 30% to moderately poor or middle class students that receive partial FA, and the remaining aid goes to students that are middle/upper class and only get 10/20% tuition help. So, unless the students are very rich, they will receive some FA if the schools want them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am sure that private schools want to have good diversity in their school body. They don't want (nor anyone should) a school filled with super rich and super poor students. It's in everyone's interests to have a socially balanced student group. Since the schools have limited FA, they give 30/40% of the aid to a few "poor" students that receive 100% tuition aid. Then they give another 30% to moderately poor or middle class students that receive partial FA, and the remaining aid goes to students that are middle/upper class and only get 10/20% tuition help. So, unless the students are very rich, they will receive some FA if the schools want them.

What is your definition of rich, middle class, and poor? Based on the vague way that you've framed things, I would say that any aid going to non-rich upper class families should be allocated among the legitimately upper-middle (10 to 20 percent tuition help), middle (20 to 80 percent tuition help), and "poor" families (over 80 percent help). Upper class deserves no aid in my book. They may not be rich, but they still make more than 70 to 90 percent (depending on how you want to define "upper class") of other families in the area.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am sure that private schools want to have good diversity in their school body. They don't want (nor anyone should) a school filled with super rich and super poor students. It's in everyone's interests to have a socially balanced student group. Since the schools have limited FA, they give 30/40% of the aid to a few "poor" students that receive 100% tuition aid. Then they give another 30% to moderately poor or middle class students that receive partial FA, and the remaining aid goes to students that are middle/upper class and only get 10/20% tuition help. So, unless the students are very rich, they will receive some FA if the schools want them.

What is your definition of rich, middle class, and poor? Based on the vague way that you've framed things, I would say that any aid going to non-rich upper class families should be allocated among the legitimately upper-middle (10 to 20 percent tuition help), middle (20 to 80 percent tuition help), and "poor" families (over 80 percent help). Upper class deserves no aid in my book. They may not be rich, but they still make more than 70 to 90 percent (depending on how you want to define "upper class") of other families in the area.

Ok sure. That is what I meant. I have no concrete or real numbers. What I meant to say is that people on this thread are arguing that only really poor people deserve aid, but I disagree and so do the schools. Private schools are not charities and want the best and most diverse student body. Most people that may be able to afford tuition, but only without saving anything or moving to a worst neighnorhood (most people that make between $150-200k) would likely end up not choosing the school. So the school gives incentives (FA) to retain some... it makes for a better school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote: Most people that may be able to afford tuition, but only without saving anything or moving to a worst neighnorhood (most people that make between $150-200k) would likely end up not choosing the school. So the school gives incentives (FA) to retain some... it makes for a better school.

This is where we disagree most. As noted in another thread this morning, $200K is just about top 10 percent in the DC area, and even $150K is top 25 percent. What about the families that make between $90K and $150K (around the median and above)? They're not "poor" by any reasonable definition of the term. And there are three times as many families that make $90K to $150K than $150K to $200K. So the pool of potential diversity is presumably much bigger too. But in your world, because they're not "able to afford tuition," they should be shut out in favor of the $200Kers, a much smaller slice of the population with less diversity to offer?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: Most people that may be able to afford tuition, but only without saving anything or moving to a worst neighnorhood (most people that make between $150-200k) would likely end up not choosing the school. So the school gives incentives (FA) to retain some... it makes for a better school.

This is where we disagree most. As noted in another thread this morning, $200K is just about top 10 percent in the DC area, and even $150K is top 25 percent. What about the families that make between $90K and $150K (around the median and above)? They're not "poor" by any reasonable definition of the term. And there are three times as many families that make $90K to $150K than $150K to $200K. So the pool of potential diversity is presumably much bigger too. But in your world, because they're not "able to afford tuition," they should be shut out in favor of the $200Kers, a much smaller slice of the population with less diversity to offer?

Absolutely not! All I meant again (without talking numbers) is that the school wants diversity. Some aid should go to the poor, some to middles class and some to upper middle class (whatever that means to you, I am not sure what that is). The poor should get a higher % of aid than the middle or upper-middle
Class. Any family that cannot reasonably afford full tuition should be considered for aid. Otherwise you will have a school wih very rich and very poor.
Just my opinion and I think the schools'. It is not just nor fair... it's what's best for the school

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Any family that cannot reasonably afford full tuition should be considered for aid. Otherwise you will have a school wih very rich and very poor.

It's impossible to have a productive discussion if you continue to talk in generalities. Like these two sentences in particular. Please explain why you end up with only "very rich and very poor" students if (in my view) families who make over $200K should almost never get any FA and families that make $150K should get at most 10 to 20 percent aid?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Any family that cannot reasonably afford full tuition should be considered for aid. Otherwise you will have a school wih very rich and very poor.

It's impossible to have a productive discussion if you continue to talk in generalities. Like these two sentences in particular. Please explain why you end up with only "very rich and very poor" students if (in my view) families who make over $200K should almost never get any FA and families that make $150K should get at most 10 to 20 percent aid?

You are not understanding what I am trying to say and I have to work. No power not in discussing this further

[Anonymous]

Fine. Can someone else please explain why you end up with only "very rich and very poor" students if (in my view) families who make over $200K should almost never get any FA and families that make $150K should get at most 10 to 20 percent aid?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
You do realize that the money has to come from somewhere and, even the wealthiest schools, don't have unlimited FA budgets. Everyone wants everything for free, or as close to it as possible, but that just isn't feasible.

I'm not sure of your point here. That I should feel guilty for accepting FA because then that money can't go to someone poorer? I trust that the amount of FA I was offered was fair, appropriate, and in line with the school's interests as well as ours. I think the FA office is better informed on this subject than you are.

You're free to feel as much or as much guilt as desired. The point is that schools should be allocating even more aid to those households who don't have nearly as much income, accumulated wealth, and/or assets as those who may "feel" they're middle class or not rich, but by any objective measure are still top 10 or 20 percentile in the DC area.

And your last sentence is a bare appeal to authority. It's like saying "politicians are better informed about issues and policy than you or me, so they must also be better at making decisions and passing laws that are fair and benefit their constituents."

I like to think of it less as "an appeal to authority quote and more as "pointing out your ignorance". You know nothing about what goes in to these fairly nuanced decisions. Waving your arms and yelling that more should go to the "really poor" shows that. Schools vary, of course, but our very stringly-endowed school is fortunately able to meet full need for just about all of their top-choice students.

I feel zero guilt, thanks. I feel gratitude, but not guilt. I am confident that they have allocated their available funds in a way that is fair and in keeping with their institutional goals. If you don't feel that way about your school, perhaps you should find a different school.

[Anonymous]

The head of NCS has two grandchildren who receive significant financial aid at Beauvoir. That right there is the answer to all of your FA questions. The school isn't interested in diversity, it's (to use their words) all about "the right fit..."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You know nothing about what goes in to these fairly nuanced decisions. Waving your arms and yelling that more should go to the "really poor" shows that.

Clearly, you haven't been paying attention to what I've said. Please stop with the "more FA to the really poor" straw man.

My point has consistently been that the top 10 to 20 percenters making $150K to $210K (who myopically see themselves as middle class) should not be getting FA, which should instead be going in much greater numbers to those making half as much (i.e., the real middle class). And to the extent that you or anyone else in the Fake Middle Class thinks families making $75K to $105K are "really poor," that's quite revealing about your sense of entitlement and cluelessness about what it actually means to be "poor."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You know nothing about what goes in to these fairly nuanced decisions. Waving your arms and yelling that more should go to the "really poor" shows that.

Clearly, you haven't been paying attention to what I've said. Please stop with the "more FA to the really poor" straw man.

My point has consistently been that the top 10 to 20 percenters making $150K to $210K (who myopically see themselves as middle class) should not be getting FA, which should instead be going in much greater numbers to those making half as much (i.e., the real middle class). And to the extent that you or anyone else in the Fake Middle Class thinks families making $75K to $105K are "really poor," that's quite revealing about your sense of entitlement and cluelessness about what it actually means to be "poor."

You can't possibly think that a family with two kids and HHI of 150 can afford 80k in tuition. They will never be able to afford it in DC. With no financial aid, they will not attend private school... I am not sure it's fair and I am not sure it makes for a diverse student body.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You know nothing about what goes in to these fairly nuanced decisions. Waving your arms and yelling that more should go to the "really poor" shows that.

Clearly, you haven't been paying attention to what I've said. Please stop with the "more FA to the really poor" straw man.

My point has consistently been that the top 10 to 20 percenters making $150K to $210K (who myopically see themselves as middle class) should not be getting FA, which should instead be going in much greater numbers to those making half as much (i.e., the real middle class). And to the extent that you or anyone else in the Fake Middle Class thinks families making $75K to $105K are "really poor," that's quite revealing about your sense of entitlement and cluelessness about what it actually means to be "poor."

Ah. So now I really have no idea what your point is with regard to me, my family, our retirement accounts and our FA. We make wayyyyy less than $150k. So... yay? You approve I guess?

And no, FFS, I don't think $75-105k is poor. I know what actual poor looks like. That's why I'm saving for retirement.