is anyone more pro-life since becoming a parent?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:guy here - no kids. as i get older i get more pro-life.

BUT i also realize this is not my battle and I work in progressive dem politics. So i kind of uncomfortably sit silent.

BUT, i would never voice my increasingly pro-life attitudes unless we have an extremely rich safety net and very robust adoption mechanism.

If I was a politician with a seat that I could defend comfortably, I would vote for ban after 20 weeks unless for the normal exceptions.

Don't hate me ladies!

So you don't have children and can not get pregnant or give birth, so you don't really have any understanding of the permanent toll pregnancy and birth can take on your body. I would continue to sit silently, but listen and learn. Even "easy" pregnancies and births can leave lasting damage.

Can you see why it's hard not to hate you?

You have no idea what it's like to have pre-eclampsia. You have no idea how scary bed rest is or placental abruption is or what a third degree tear feels like. You don't know how the moment that your nuchal translucency comes up with a "vague" result requiring more tests. To face rare disorders like Thalassemia? Downs syndrome? Tay Sachs? Chromosomal abnormalities? You don't even know what it's like to be a prospective father watching this go on.

You've never lost a baby at 20 weeks, as some of us on this board have, only to be told "You can try again soon, honey" by a well meaning E.R. nurse.

Yet, you want to vote for a ban after 20 weeks?

If you feel so strongly about babies, have one. If you can't because of various reasons, you will find sympathy and empathy all over this board. If you want to hear heart wrenching stories, look on the threads about people facing difficulties trying to conceive and maintain pregnancies, but the irony is that reproductive freedom allowed growth of reproductive technologies to allow more people to have children through IVF and egg harvesting.

By limiting reproductive choices to terminate pregnancies, "pro-life" groups often opt to limit reproductive choices to create them, especially for LGBT families and singles. Who knows? In a couple of years, you may meet the right man, woman or transgender person for your life and you may want to use some new technologies (like three party conception which right now is mostly speculative) to add to your family.

Protecting the right to choose protects your right to choose too.

Keep an open mind.

Did you mean to quote the guy I quoted? Because you and I are saying the same thing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Actually I've become even more pro choice since becoming pregnant. It wasn't until I understood when testing could take place and how that corresponded with so-called "late term abortion" that I got it. You only potentially find out about things at 20 weeks, may need to get an amnio to confirm, and by then you're pushing the 23 week deadline.

What is CVS for $20, Alex..

CVS can be done early in pregnancy (earlier than amniocentesis), and results are usually obtained within 10 days. Getting this kind of information early allows a woman to make choices in the beginning stage of her pregnancy. If a woman chooses to terminate the pregnancy after receiving abnormal test results, the termination will be safer than if she waits until later for amniocentesis results.

What is "irrelevant" for $1000?, Alex.

Most women do not just have CVS routinely as it carries the risk of miscarriage. And not every condition arises early enough or is otherwise detected by that test. I am so glad that you haven't had personal experience with some of the monstrously sad conditions that can only be spotted after 20 weeks.

And in those cases, abortion is a consideration. Abortion as a form of birth control? No. And that's how it's being used today - as birth control.

No, it's not. Abortion is expensive, difficult to obtain in most of the country, and is a surgery, albeit a simple one. No one sane is using it as birth control, and if they were, that's all the more reason to open more clinics so that we can get birth control to more women (and hopefully someday men). If you're going to make a fanciful claim like that, you have to cite it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Actually I've become even more pro choice since becoming pregnant. It wasn't until I understood when testing could take place and how that corresponded with so-called "late term abortion" that I got it. You only potentially find out about things at 20 weeks, may need to get an amnio to confirm, and by then you're pushing the 23 week deadline.

What is CVS for $20, Alex..

CVS can be done early in pregnancy (earlier than amniocentesis), and results are usually obtained within 10 days. Getting this kind of information early allows a woman to make choices in the beginning stage of her pregnancy. If a woman chooses to terminate the pregnancy after receiving abnormal test results, the termination will be safer than if she waits until later for amniocentesis results.

+1 By the time all the testing is done, it late. I became more prochoice after having children.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I experienced the opposite. I'm still pro-choice but I used to think the fetus was just a clump of cells for much longer. It was shocking to me when I saw my 8 week old fetus flapping its limbs.

Shocks me too since it didn't happen.

Have you ever had an ultrasound at 8 weeks? You don't seem too bright.

http://www.babycenter.com/6_your-pregnancy-8-weeks_1097.bc

Yes I did. Did you even read the link you provided? Now, pot, what were you saying about not seeming too bright?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

And you, apparently, cannot read. OP specifically said she would not want her poor baby teen to have to endure the horrors of an unwanted pregnancy, since she is still a "child" herself. But crazy as your point of view is, I suppose you think it's fine for "children" in this situation to be having sex and abortions. I mean, why not. Planned Parenthood is making big $$$ off of the body parts.

Begone, nutter. You may have your own opinions, no matter how flawed your logic, but you may not have your own facts.

Well, apparently even PP agrees with me, because they have admitted to this and are now saying they will not take payments for fetal tissue. These satanists under exposure of course; they had to be forced to take even this step. (You may not have heard that yet, from the cave you dwell in.)

Nutter, that's cute. You've reminded me it's almost time for lunch and I think I'll have some peanut butter.

No, they don't, no, they haven't and the only payments they take are to recover the labor of the people who prep the tissue samples. I guess you can try to give a link that proves your claim, but it's either going to come from whatever Operation Rescue is calling themselves or a link to the videos from CMP... which is the same thing as no link at all. So I repeat, "Begone, nutter. You may have your own opinions, no matter how flawed your logic, but you may not have your own facts." Hope your lunch was good!

This (tired, insipid) line applies to your and yours as well. Which of course means nothing to the monsters at PP, who are benefiting from the baby part dollars.

Oh, please no one with half a brain thinks Planned Parenthood is making money from fetal tissue. Just cut it out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have turned pro-life. Everyone has dignity that is distinctly theirs, including an unborn human. As mothers, it is our duty to help maintain this dignity. It is not our choice to allow this dignity or not. I am for responsibility. Take charge of your body and choices and don't procreate if you don't have the means to take care of it.

Can you expand on this? Because this is basically meaningless word salad.

Can you further elaborate on why you do think abortion is not taking "responsibility" once someone has determined that they don't have the means to care for a child?

Word salad? Sure, whatever makes you feel better.

Definition: Dignity 1.the state or quality of being worthy of honor or respect

Why would your incoherency make me feel better? This sentence: "Everyone has dignity that is distinctly theirs." is not an argument. It doesn't even make sense, let alone mean anything. So a morula has "the quality of being worthy of honor or respect," more so than a woman with 26 years in the rear view? Because anti-choicers who vote anti-choice, to a tee, think wimmen are just too gosh darn stupid and fickle to be trusted with this decision. Or murderous sluts with blood lust. Or confused by the Feminazi propaganda that says wimmen don't just have to have kids and stay home with them.

But toss that word salad! Main ingredient? Bitter leaves of internalized misogyny.

Spot on.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Actually I've become even more pro choice since becoming pregnant. It wasn't until I understood when testing could take place and how that corresponded with so-called "late term abortion" that I got it. You only potentially find out about things at 20 weeks, may need to get an amnio to confirm, and by then you're pushing the 23 week deadline.

What is CVS for $20, Alex..

CVS can be done early in pregnancy (earlier than amniocentesis), and results are usually obtained within 10 days. Getting this kind of information early allows a woman to make choices in the beginning stage of her pregnancy. If a woman chooses to terminate the pregnancy after receiving abnormal test results, the termination will be safer than if she waits until later for amniocentesis results.

CVS is not always covered by insurance, particularly in women under 35. So those women need to do the 13 week test and see a potential abnormality in order for CVS to be covered by insurance. This takes us back to the matter of pushing the timeline.

Moreover, none of the diagnostic tests like CVS or amnio are done routinely, unless an abnormality is spotted. Abnormalities are not spotted until the 20 week ultrasound. So, again, my original point, which I made a loooong time ago, stands.

I have a child with SN and while I love him so, and will fight for him to get the services he needs and hopefully to attain a life he enjoys, parenting has made me even more pro choice. I do not know what my son's life would look like in the hands of someone without the resources or the will to fight for him.

CVS is routinely done with older mothers, which is how DCUM skews.

Uh, okay? So what? It is not done for the vast bulk of the population, so how does that impact the late term abortion issue?

Seriously? Come on. You gotta keep up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A ban after 20 weeks would be a great compromise but then stop with wait periods and make them cheap and accessible so women don't have to travel and save lots of money as the clock ticks away.

At 22 weeks, we found out that our child, who was very much planned for and wanted, had a serious defect that was almost a guarantee of being born still-born, or dying in the womb, and we made the gut-wrenching decision to abort.

So tell me: should I have been forced to carry that pregnancy to term?

That example would be very, very, rare. What I find telling though is that you give this 'real life' scenario but you don't identify the sex of the child.

Why is that telling? We didn't find out the sex of the child for all three of our kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have turned pro-life. Everyone has dignity that is distinctly theirs, including an unborn human. As mothers, it is our duty to help maintain this dignity. It is not our choice to allow this dignity or not. I am for responsibility. Take charge of your body and choices and don't procreate if you don't have the means to take care of it.

Can you expand on this? Because this is basically meaningless word salad.

Can you further elaborate on why you do think abortion is not taking "responsibility" once someone has determined that they don't have the means to care for a child?

Word salad? Sure, whatever makes you feel better.

Definition: Dignity 1.the state or quality of being worthy of honor or respect

Why would your incoherency make me feel better? This sentence: "Everyone has dignity that is distinctly theirs." is not an argument. It doesn't even make sense, let alone mean anything. So a morula has "the quality of being worthy of honor or respect," more so than a woman with 26 years in the rear view? Because anti-choicers who vote anti-choice, to a tee, think wimmen are just too gosh darn stupid and fickle to be trusted with this decision. Or murderous sluts with blood lust. Or confused by the Feminazi propaganda that says wimmen don't just have to have kids and stay home with them.

But toss that word salad! Main ingredient? Bitter leaves of internalized misogyny.

Spot on.

+2. I'm much more confident of my being pro-choice now, and I was extremely pro-choice before.

[Anonymous]

NP here. I have always been very pro-life, and, now, as a parent, I am just as strongly pro-life.

I am pro-choice . . .. before conception.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:guy here - no kids. as i get older i get more pro-life.

BUT i also realize this is not my battle and I work in progressive dem politics. So i kind of uncomfortably sit silent.

BUT, i would never voice my increasingly pro-life attitudes unless we have an extremely rich safety net and very robust adoption mechanism.

If I was a politician with a seat that I could defend comfortably, I would vote for ban after 20 weeks unless for the normal exceptions.

Don't hate me ladies!

So you don't have children and can not get pregnant or give birth, so you don't really have any understanding of the permanent toll pregnancy and birth can take on your body. I would continue to sit silently, but listen and learn. Even "easy" pregnancies and births can leave lasting damage.

You are being far kinder to PP than he deserves. Maybe PP should assume responsibility for a child (through adoption or fostering for 18-21 years) if he feels so strongly about this issue. Maybe that's what any politician who seeks to insert himself into this discussion should do so they can begin to understand the cost of their moral high ground.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A ban after 20 weeks would be a great compromise but then stop with wait periods and make them cheap and accessible so women don't have to travel and save lots of money as the clock ticks away.

At 22 weeks, we found out that our child, who was very much planned for and wanted, had a serious defect that was almost a guarantee of being born still-born, or dying in the womb, and we made the gut-wrenching decision to abort.

So tell me: should I have been forced to carry that pregnancy to term?

That example would be very, very, rare. What I find telling though is that you give this 'real life' scenario but you don't identify the sex of the child.

WTF?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I find this comment curious.
You do realize that once you are pregnant, that “little clump of cells” grows into a human being, right?
Not an amoeba, not a reptile, not an alien.
Pro lifers understand science quite well - we understand that an abortions destroys a human life.

But it's not, it's only a maybe. We don't count birthdays from conception, we don't get to claim fetuses as dependent a for tax purposes, etc. Pro-choicers rightly believe that forced pregnancy and birth can ruin an actual, existing, contributing human life.

And yet, in many states if a pregnant mother is murdered, it is capital murder because it counts as the taking of 2 lives, whether she is 4 weeks pregnant, 4 months pregnant or 9 months pregnant. How does that rationale work?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I find this comment curious.
You do realize that once you are pregnant, that “little clump of cells” grows into a human being, right?
Not an amoeba, not a reptile, not an alien.
Pro lifers understand science quite well - we understand that an abortions destroys a human life.

But it's not, it's only a maybe. We don't count birthdays from conception, we don't get to claim fetuses as dependent a for tax purposes, etc. Pro-choicers rightly believe that forced pregnancy and birth can ruin an actual, existing, contributing human life.

And yet, in many states if a pregnant mother is murdered, it is capital murder because it counts as the taking of 2 lives, whether she is 4 weeks pregnant, 4 months pregnant or 9 months pregnant. How does that rationale work?

Gosh, you got me there. Those laws certainly aren't the work of anti-choice politicians seeking an end run around Roe with establishing personhood for fetuses while they chip away at the rights of pregnant women or anything.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I find this comment curious.
You do realize that once you are pregnant, that “little clump of cells” grows into a human being, right?
Not an amoeba, not a reptile, not an alien.
Pro lifers understand science quite well - we understand that an abortions destroys a human life.

But it's not, it's only a maybe. We don't count birthdays from conception, we don't get to claim fetuses as dependent a for tax purposes, etc. Pro-choicers rightly believe that forced pregnancy and birth can ruin an actual, existing, contributing human life.

And yet, in many states if a pregnant mother is murdered, it is capital murder because it counts as the taking of 2 lives, whether she is 4 weeks pregnant, 4 months pregnant or 9 months pregnant. How does that rationale work?

We've discussed this on here before and it's very simple.

If you put your penis in me because I ask you too, that is sex. If you put your penis in me when I don't want you to, that is rape. My intent is important; it defines whether what happens between us is legal, or illegal.

If you remove a fetus from my uterus because I ask you to, that should be a legal abortion. If you destroy my fetus without my consent, I have NO problem with you being prosecuted for feticide. Homicide, whatever you want to call it.

See that? Rationale; done.