Proposal Implications: Loss of Proximity, Forced to go to Lowest Performing School, Concerns OOB

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You remind me of people who complain when a business owner argues that lower capital gains taxes spur economic growth for all. You get distracted pointing out the business owner's self-interest. The relevant question is actually whether or not lower capital gains taxes spur economic growth for all. That's the policy question to be determined. The business owner's interest can simply be assumed, once he discloses to us his status as a business owner with accrued capital gains.

a quibble - self interest is quite relevant when someone is making an appeal to authority ("I don't have actual evidence that this tax cut will spur growth, but I am a businessman so I KNOW" or "I should be listened to, I am a DCPS parent") Ad hominem of any kind is only a fallacy when directed against a logical argument, not when directed at an arguement from authority, or to (unverifiable) personal testimony.

Yu may return to dicussing who should be kept out of which middle school.

last sentence made me

You are right about this. In this case it was directed against a logical argument.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Everyone can agreed that everyone deserves good/great schools.
But some people feel more entitled to them than others, like the OP. It it because she pays more in taxes? (but what about people who don't have kids and who pay taxes?). I can understand feeling dismayed if one bought in a neighborhood for a particular school, but the hysterical outcry about "OOB concerns" and a sudden influx of "the most challenging students" in DCPS seems a bit paranoid.


Whatever one's motivation for calling for diversity or not, the reality is that there are truly terrible, awful schools and there are tons of kids who have NO other alternatives--we're not talking murch vs hearst. DCPS may be finding the worst way to fix it, there may not be a way either through redistrcting, social engineering or what, but the ways things are right now the system is terribly unequal. Rich kids get a much better PUBLIC education than poor kids, in DC as in most places. Seems like lots of posters in DCUM hope the terribly unequal situation can be fixed, in some abstract way, but are hysterical that attemps at fixing might incur losing their access to the few high performing schools or allowing more "OOB" to enter the high performing district. So why doesn't everyone be 'honest' about things--the poster who is losing access feels entitled to the best school because she bought there--but is she more entitled than someone who lives far east of the park and would never have a shot at a decent school at all? (Please dont trot out the "I lived off cat food for 3 years in a 45 sq ft closet to send my kids to Janney' argument either. Let's be real).

I agree with this in bold. HOWEVER, for different reasons in DC than in most places.

In most places the rich areas have better schools primarily because they collect more tax revenues.

In DC, it is different. There is truly no shortage of money at any of the disadvantaged schools.

Rather, the main reason for your statement in bold has to do with the rich/poor divide in DC being the largest of any American city. In other words, students and parents, not government, are the root cause of education inequality in DC.

I do believe that government can be part of the solution.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:9:31 again. I apologize that my rant does not fit in the context of this thread. I'm just so frustrated by what I see from many posters. Apologies for the distraction from the main topic. Carry on.

Yeah, thanks for the self-check. You were sounding like an irredeemable b*tch!

[Anonymous]

^^ Pot, kettle.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Everyone can agreed that everyone deserves good/great schools.
But some people feel more entitled to them than others, like the OP. It it because she pays more in taxes? (but what about people who don't have kids and who pay taxes?). I can understand feeling dismayed if one bought in a neighborhood for a particular school, but the hysterical outcry about "OOB concerns" and a sudden influx of "the most challenging students" in DCPS seems a bit paranoid.


Whatever one's motivation for calling for diversity or not, the reality is that there are truly terrible, awful schools and there are tons of kids who have NO other alternatives--we're not talking murch vs hearst. DCPS may be finding the worst way to fix it, there may not be a way either through redistrcting, social engineering or what, but the ways things are right now the system is terribly unequal. Rich kids get a much better PUBLIC education than poor kids, in DC as in most places. Seems like lots of posters in DCUM hope the terribly unequal situation can be fixed, in some abstract way, but are hysterical that attemps at fixing might incur losing their access to the few high performing schools or allowing more "OOB" to enter the high performing district. So why doesn't everyone be 'honest' about things--the poster who is losing access feels entitled to the best school because she bought there--but is she more entitled than someone who lives far east of the park and would never have a shot at a decent school at all? (Please dont trot out the "I lived off cat food for 3 years in a 45 sq ft closet to send my kids to Janney' argument either. Let's be real).

I agree with this in bold. HOWEVER, for different reasons in DC than in most places.

In most places the rich areas have better schools primarily because they collect more tax revenues.

In DC, it is different. There is truly no shortage of money at any of the disadvantaged schools.

Rather, the main reason for your statement in bold has to do with the rich/poor divide in DC being the largest of any American city. In other words, students and parents, not government, are the root cause of education inequality in DC.

I do believe that government can be part of the solution.

I disagree that the reason that rich schools in other places are better is all about the difference in tax base. They too benefit from a higher SES cohort of students. This is not all about facilities. In fact, DC demonstrates that equal facilities and financial resources are NOT enough to bridge the divide.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If you truly value diversity, you would live in any number of Montgomery County and Northern Virginia communities. In DC, the odds are pretty high that you are rich/white or lower-income/black. If you don't want to leave DC or move to Ward 7 or 8, try visiting DPR facilities like the Deanwood Pool or Anacostia Park, sending you child to DPR summer camps, joining the DC Youth Orchestra, etc. There is no shortage of options in DC.

I know you prefaced it with "odds are pretty high" but these statements irritate me. I think you would have been better served if you said "if you live in Wards 7 and 8..."

Many people in this city have prejudices and forget that there is a large amount of middle, upper middle and high income blacks in the city.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you truly value diversity, you would live in any number of Montgomery County and Northern Virginia communities. In DC, the odds are pretty high that you are rich/white or lower-income/black. If you don't want to leave DC or move to Ward 7 or 8, try visiting DPR facilities like the Deanwood Pool or Anacostia Park, sending you child to DPR summer camps, joining the DC Youth Orchestra, etc. There is no shortage of options in DC.

I know you prefaced it with "odds are pretty high" but these statements irritate me. I think you would have been better served if you said "if you live in Wards 7 and 8..."

Many people in this city have prejudices and forget that there is a large amount of middle, upper middle and high income blacks in the city.

other people assume everything said relating to race is a racial slur, making it difficult to talk about race in a city where race is a huge issue.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you truly value diversity, you would live in any number of Montgomery County and Northern Virginia communities. In DC, the odds are pretty high that you are rich/white or lower-income/black. If you don't want to leave DC or move to Ward 7 or 8, try visiting DPR facilities like the Deanwood Pool or Anacostia Park, sending you child to DPR summer camps, joining the DC Youth Orchestra, etc. There is no shortage of options in DC.

I know you prefaced it with "odds are pretty high" but these statements irritate me. I think you would have been better served if you said "if you live in Wards 7 and 8..."

Many people in this city have prejudices and forget that there is a large amount of middle, upper middle and high income blacks in the city.

other people assume everything said relating to race is a racial slur, making it difficult to talk about race in a city where race is a huge issue.

It may not be a racial slur but grouping or half assed grouping is a slippery slope. If you're not in a group that is stereotyped in this segregated city, it's hard for you to understand. We are a high income black family and we feel the stereotypes ALL the time. They may not be coming from you so you don't understand but we get them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you truly value diversity, you would live in any number of Montgomery County and Northern Virginia communities. In DC, the odds are pretty high that you are rich/white or lower-income/black. If you don't want to leave DC or move to Ward 7 or 8, try visiting DPR facilities like the Deanwood Pool or Anacostia Park, sending you child to DPR summer camps, joining the DC Youth Orchestra, etc. There is no shortage of options in DC.

I know you prefaced it with "odds are pretty high" but these statements irritate me. I think you would have been better served if you said "if you live in Wards 7 and 8..."

Many people in this city have prejudices and forget that there is a large amount of middle, upper middle and high income blacks in the city.

other people assume everything said relating to race is a racial slur, making it difficult to talk about race in a city where race is a huge issue.

You don't get it. Saying "other people" as opposed to "some people" is a perfect example.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you truly value diversity, you would live in any number of Montgomery County and Northern Virginia communities. In DC, the odds are pretty high that you are rich/white or lower-income/black. If you don't want to leave DC or move to Ward 7 or 8, try visiting DPR facilities like the Deanwood Pool or Anacostia Park, sending you child to DPR summer camps, joining the DC Youth Orchestra, etc. There is no shortage of options in DC.

I know you prefaced it with "odds are pretty high" but these statements irritate me. I think you would have been better served if you said "if you live in Wards 7 and 8..."

Many people in this city have prejudices and forget that there is a large amount of middle, upper middle and high income blacks in the city.

other people assume everything said relating to race is a racial slur, making it difficult to talk about race in a city where race is a huge issue.

You don't get it. Saying "other people" as opposed to "some people" is a perfect example.

I think I do get it -- you are the language police and get to decide when something is a racial slur, making it difficult to talk about anything besides racial slurs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My guess is you are going from Murch to Hearst? If not, please clarify.

If this is the shift OP is describing, it's hard for me to feel much sympathy.

I think we have officially replaced "First World problems" with "Ward 3 problems."

Best post of the day. I have very little sympathy for OP, and this attitude is the reason we were so happy to move out of Ward 3.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you truly value diversity, you would live in any number of Montgomery County and Northern Virginia communities. In DC, the odds are pretty high that you are rich/white or lower-income/black. If you don't want to leave DC or move to Ward 7 or 8, try visiting DPR facilities like the Deanwood Pool or Anacostia Park, sending you child to DPR summer camps, joining the DC Youth Orchestra, etc. There is no shortage of options in DC.

I know you prefaced it with "odds are pretty high" but these statements irritate me. I think you would have been better served if you said "if you live in Wards 7 and 8..."

Many people in this city have prejudices and forget that there is a large amount of middle, upper middle and high income blacks in the city.

other people assume everything said relating to race is a racial slur, making it difficult to talk about race in a city where race is a huge issue.

It may not be a racial slur but grouping or half assed grouping is a slippery slope. If you're not in a group that is stereotyped in this segregated city, it's hard for you to understand. We are a high income black family and we feel the stereotypes ALL the time. They may not be coming from you so you don't understand but we get them.

and remember, stereoptyping doesn't just go in one direction.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My guess is you are going from Murch to Hearst? If not, please clarify.

If this is the shift OP is describing, it's hard for me to feel much sympathy.

I think we have officially replaced "First World problems" with "Ward 3 problems."

Best post of the day. I have very little sympathy for OP, and this attitude is the reason we were so happy to move out of Ward 3.

Stereotyping! all ward three people are not alike

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you truly value diversity, you would live in any number of Montgomery County and Northern Virginia communities. In DC, the odds are pretty high that you are rich/white or lower-income/black. If you don't want to leave DC or move to Ward 7 or 8, try visiting DPR facilities like the Deanwood Pool or Anacostia Park, sending you child to DPR summer camps, joining the DC Youth Orchestra, etc. There is no shortage of options in DC.

I know you prefaced it with "odds are pretty high" but these statements irritate me. I think you would have been better served if you said "if you live in Wards 7 and 8..."

Many people in this city have prejudices and forget that there is a large amount of middle, upper middle and high income blacks in the city.

it sounds like you're implying something negative about wards 7 and 8, but I'm not sure. My race-dar is not working well today.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Let me start by saying that I am not zoned out for a Ward 3 school. (I was never zoned in to begin with.) I just read your statement and felt compelled to comment.

I believe there is value in diversity that some people may not see because they have never had the opportunity to experience a truly diverse environment. I purposely seek out diverse schools for my kids because I grew up in NYC and went to schools with kids who represented every color in the rainbow, from every culture and religion you can think of, and that experience has served me well in my adult life in terms of how I relate to people both personally and professionally.

I distinctly remember my 10th grade Social Studies class when I sat next to an Asian girl whose family immigrated here from China and who shared with me that sometimes she felt as though people treated Asians as though they were invisible. When she said that, I realized that I had never bothered to learn her name and I began to be more cognizant of people outside my "group." I learned how to Salsa from my Latino friends and how to count to 20 in French from my Haitian friends (plus a few choice cuss words in Patois ). My Buddhist classmate told me about her religion and I learned that there were many paths to God. I remember realizing that there were cultures within cultures, and that kids of all colors and economic levels could be dealt a bad hand. I learned empathy and compassion and patience with those that were different from me.

While DC does not have the full spectrum of colors and cultures that New York City has, that does not discount the value of a diverse environment and I would argue that it would be a good thing if every child had a chance to exchange thoughts and ideas with people who do not look exactly like them or live in their 10 block radius.

So some of the concerns about diversity aren't fake or contrived. They come from a place of understanding its value.

Thanks -- I think a lot of people in living in DC have similar feelings, even if they didn't have a school experience as diverse and as positive as yours. Diversity is welcomed, but the rough behavior and poor academic preparation that sometimes go along with it are not -- at least not on a daily basis, in school.

I wonder if there is some way of allowing for more diversity among DCs school children that doesn't cause so much upheaval. Maybe citywide programs at all grade levels that bring kids from different schools and areas together on some kind of regular basis? I really don't have anything in mind -- just the idea of thinking about diversity in new ways.

Now instead of people piling on to say that won't work, how about some brainstorming first? The idea presented is pretty vague, so maybe we could spend a a little time building on it before or instead of tearing it down.

While you may not have intended this, your statement comes across as though you believe that in order to have a diverse school environment you have to accept disruptive children. What disruptive children are your referring to--"at risk", Black, Latino, all of the above? Whatever the case, to suggest that ALL of these children have rough behavior and poor academic preparation is a misconception at best.

Deal is a diverse school for the District. It has White kids, Black kids, Latino kids, "at risk" kids, and to my knowledge, there have been no major disruptions at Deal. As a matter of fact it is thought to be the best middle school in the city.

It has been my experience that disruptive kids, and kids who struggle academically, come in all colors and from every economic background.

The problem is that people (perhaps yourself included) often view disruptive behavior through the lens of their preconceptions. For example, a white kid at Key throws a balled up piece of paper at a teacher and hits her in the head. What would the reaction be? How much trouble would that kid get into? What would happen at if a black kid did the same exact thing?

Most kids, come into a school and settle into the established culture, even if it's vastly different than what they are surrounded by at home.

Before we can discuss creating more opportunities for diversity, we have address people's perceptions--including our own.

Actually, Latin is probably the best middle school in the city. But good luck getting in.