Go to law school?

[Anonymous]

No

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think the issue with biglaw going down the tubes is practice area specific. I work at one of the national L&E firms. Most of the partners in my office defected from biglaw firms. The reason they did so was the billing rates -- clients don't want to pay $650 an hour for someone to handle unfair labor practice charges or discrimination lawsuits, and the firms uniformly refused to allow these partners to lower their rates. I think L&E practices at biglaw firms are going to go the way of the dinosaur before too long. It really makes no sense to pay M&A rates for someone to defend an FLSA or Title VII lawsuit.

True. And due to Employment Liability Insurance a simple employment litigation matters are going to smaller firms or large firms that staff 3rd and 4th years associates on the matters. If you want to do employment law, get to a place where the big employers are not the federal government.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why don't you try to get a paralegal position in an employment law practice group. Your experience is relevant and you will get a taste of the more "legal" side of what you already do.

OP here. Ideally, I would aim at getting a job at one of the national employment firms -- Jackson Lewis, Seyfarth Shaw, Littler Mendolsohn are some of the ones I am aware of. I think my work experience is relevant and should outweigh any issues with the rank of my school or how I do in law school. I just have to get an interview. You have all given me something to think about, though. Even when I get hired at a big firm I may hate it and it doesn't look like I will get any money from a school to attend so I will owe a lot... #decisionsdecisions

Have you done any research OP? First of all, American is still in the first tier and both UMD and American are very competitive. Secondly, Littler doesn't hire any associates out of law school. Their model is that they only hire laterals. Those are pretty good firms. You will spend $200K to make $100K a year if you are really lucky.

I assume by "really lucky" you mean OP would be hired by one of the firms she names. Seyfarth, I believe, pays market (160k in DC for first years). The others pay less, but probably something like 120k for a first year in DC.

Still, her chances of being even considered at any of these places does not look good at all, so it's a moot point.

[Anonymous]

by no definition is American "first tier".

MD and Mason are, if you consider the top 50 on US News to be first tier. which really is too many. both are decent though of course.

[Anonymous]

IIRC American moves in and out of the bottom of the first tier every couple years (UMD has done this several times as well).

I went to UMD, and I think the difference between American and UMD is negligible. As PP said, 50 schools in the "first tier" is way too many. That term is basically meaningless nowadays. First tier should really be the top 10-12 schools (honestly, I think you need to be top quarter or 20% with journal/moot court at Georgetown in this job market to get anything decent. Not exactly what I'd call "elite").

[Anonymous]

Agreed about top 50. I would not advise anyone to go unless attending a school that is consistently in the top 25.

GW Law hovers around #20/21 typically but frequently gets a positive reaction from fellow lawyers and business people that are impressed with where I attended. Especially if you are in IP law (ranked #3/#4 typically)...which they have a strong reputation for.

Locally, Georgetown and GW are the true first tier.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I do not think equity partners at Miles are billing 1400. In my department, it was more like 2000+. Could vary by department, though. There seems to be this "midlaw" myth where partners coast along making a few hundred grand and work 9-5. I would like to see this if it exists.

The bigger myth on these boards at the moment seems to be "Since there are reasons to think biglaw is facing serious challenges, it is safer to be at midlaw." Its like some posters read Abovethelaw and their takeaway was that justifying your rates is something only large law firms have to do.

I haven't read ATL in literally years, but I know when I left BigLaw, my rate went from $550 to $400 and my clients came with me, and my salary went up while my hours went down.

At my regional firm, partners bill about 1,500 hours and make about $400K. Not a bad life.

At smaller firms (truly boutiques) where my friends ended up, they bill maybe 1,200 hours and make about $300K. Perhaps an even better life.

I don't doubt you. My issue is last time this came up and a few people attempted to explain why they were happy not fleeing big law, there was a slew of "apparently you haven't read any legal news recently" comments. I don't think what's happening in the legal market is a reason to choose mid-size over large (though there may well be other good reasons to do so).

NP here. Of course, this doesn't account for time written off because the time required to finish a project exceeds cost limitations. Also, you have to factor in non-billable time for business development (writing, networking, speaking engagements, etc. Probably still better than Biglaw but it's not as simple as 1500 billables / 50 weeks = 30 hrs per week.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I do not think equity partners at Miles are billing 1400. In my department, it was more like 2000+. Could vary by department, though. There seems to be this "midlaw" myth where partners coast along making a few hundred grand and work 9-5. I would like to see this if it exists.

The bigger myth on these boards at the moment seems to be "Since there are reasons to think biglaw is facing serious challenges, it is safer to be at midlaw." Its like some posters read Abovethelaw and their takeaway was that justifying your rates is something only large law firms have to do.

I haven't read ATL in literally years, but I know when I left BigLaw, my rate went from $550 to $400 and my clients came with me, and my salary went up while my hours went down.

At my regional firm, partners bill about 1,500 hours and make about $400K. Not a bad life.

At smaller firms (truly boutiques) where my friends ended up, they bill maybe 1,200 hours and make about $300K. Perhaps an even better life.

I don't doubt you. My issue is last time this came up and a few people attempted to explain why they were happy not fleeing big law, there was a slew of "apparently you haven't read any legal news recently" comments. I don't think what's happening in the legal market is a reason to choose mid-size over large (though there may well be other good reasons to do so).

NP here. Of course, this doesn't account for time written off because the time required to finish a project exceeds cost limitations. Also, you have to factor in non-billable time for business development (writing, networking, speaking engagements, etc. Probably still better than Biglaw but it's not as simple as 1500 billables / 50 weeks = 30 hrs per week.

well, you have to have the work. that is obviously the catch. personally, I'd rather spend 15-20 hours a week marketing (i.e., attending chamber meetings, trade groups, social outings) then spending that time billing. But some lawyers don't have that skill or do not enjoy it.

[Anonymous]

The decreasing billable number requirement as you become more senior is a reflection of the amount of time you are expected to be doing other things - marketing, firm management, etc.

[Anonymous]

I'm not sure what the going rate is nowadays for a law degree - but if you aren't poor enough or smart enough then you're probably going to be paying retail. When I graduated, I came out with about 180K, and I know nowadays sticker price (including living expenses) would be closer to 225/230K. Just a note that it might cost even more than 150K.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

A firm is going to just throw my resume in the garbage because I didn't go to the right school, even though I have actual experience in the area they practice in?

YES. Your HR experience is not going to be the same sort of asset as, say, an advanced science degree would be for an aspiring patent attorney or Wall Street experience for an aspiring securities attorney. Please listen to the folks on here -- it is extremely difficult for a graduate of a lower-tier law school to get any job, much less one at a firm. In this market, even graduates of top schools cannot find jobs, and experienced attorneys are having difficulty moving into new jobs, even with on-point experience.

I wholeheartedly agree with PPs that you should work as a paralegal before considering law school. After you have done several major document reviews, witnessed the personalities involved, and viewed the work first hand, then you can decide whether you really want to be an attorney, or whether you are simply feeling stuck in your current job and practicing law sounds like a good solution.

I'm the PP who suggested finding work as a paralegal in an employment law practice group. I was also a Big Law recruiter when times were good and candidates hard to come by, and yes, we would have thrown your resume in the trash. We used a "grade book" to determine which class rank was acceptable from which top tier schools. The only exceptions were 1. patent attorneys with Ph.D's, someone with highly specialized experience and or government experience and partners with large books of business.

There are a lot of practicing attorneys, giving you great advice and you are refusing to listen. Good luck with law school.

All the paralegal jobs are being taken by the lawyers who went to lower-tier schools...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You say you want to be a lawyer. What type of law do you want to practice? What especially interests you about the law? The job market may not have recovered by the time that you graduate - if you do this, it needs to be because you are passionate about the work, not because you don't know what else to do, want to earn a decent living etc.

This.

OP, I’m usually the very last person to crush someone, especially if it involves a dream - it’s just I don’t see your dream? You write nothing about what type of law, why was your path what it was, so far? Otherwise it looks like you are not honest with yourself; you did not do great in college, you didn’t get into a law adjacent or paralegal field, you are not in HR in a law firm? You bombed the LSAT!! Why? And why do you think with all of that you would get a scholarship?!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You say you want to be a lawyer. What type of law do you want to practice? What especially interests you about the law? The job market may not have recovered by the time that you graduate - if you do this, it needs to be because you are passionate about the work, not because you don't know what else to do, want to earn a decent living etc.

This.

OP, I’m usually the very last person to crush someone, especially if it involves a dream - it’s just I don’t see your dream? You write nothing about what type of law, why was your path what it was, so far? Otherwise it looks like you are not honest with yourself; you did not do great in college, you didn’t get into a law adjacent or paralegal field, you are not in HR in a law firm? You bombed the LSAT!! Why? And why do you think with all of that you would get a scholarship?!

OP wrote the post in 2013...maybe they can let us know how their life turned out, but I assume your advice is no longer relevant.

I swear people purposely find the oldest post they can and then just randomly comment.