What’s the point of going to a top school if you end up in the same place as someone who didn’t

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And, wouldn’t you know it …he hates the Ivies as much as Michelin star restaurants. Lol

No he mostly hates Harvard and Columbia. Three of his kids went to Penn.

All of them are getting cuts. He refers to all of them as elites. His youngest chose NYU, not an Ivy or his Alma mater.

NYU isn't any less liberal, and still fairly elite.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'll say that most students don't go into a top college because they groomed themselves selectively for it. They were top students, and thought they might as well put their application into a top college.

For the average student, it really doesn't change their trajectory much unless they grew up low income. But for the top students, it is truly the best environment to be and they tend to be industry leaders, full professors, and top researchers in the future. Look at the dominance of Stanford in the tech/VC space or Harvard in biotech and bioengineering. If you have high risk tolerance, this could be the start of a foundational journey backed by limitless resources.

What is your definition of an average student at Harvard or Stanford?

My son graduated from Stanford likely in the bottom 50% with his GPA. Since he graduated 9 years ago he has had so many doors opened simply because of the name. He was not low income and his trajectory has been amazing….even at the bottom of the pack at Stanford…

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Seems to depend on what you want to study and your value system.

I’m in medicine and literally does not matter what school. Many colleagues who went to Ivy for undergrad didn’t like their experience. Maybe ivy is good for careers PP posted- consulting, banking, PE, Wall Street)

For my super high stats kid, I still stress fit and vibe and opportunities for their interests.
For my above avg kid, I won’t make them kill themselves in HS. This is life too. Life is not just in the future.

I will admit that I don’t understand the operations of medicine at all.

My kid was admitted to Georgetown hospital and other than the attending in the ER, not one of the four other doctors that saw my kid even attended a US medical school.

They weren’t Caribbean schools…but European or Indian. None I would even remotely recognize.

It's worthwhile to understand some of the artificial limits we put on the training of doctors in the US. This is why we have so many foreign-born physicians. And it's very likely that the Indian and European schools you don't recognize are actually top schools in their respective countries.

This is Heritage Foundation (so not a totally neutral org), but it's got some good background: https://www.heritage.org/sites/default/files/2024-05/BG3831.pdf (I'm not even remotely conservative, BTW.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'll say that most students don't go into a top college because they groomed themselves selectively for it. They were top students, and thought they might as well put their application into a top college.

For the average student, it really doesn't change their trajectory much unless they grew up low income. But for the top students, it is truly the best environment to be and they tend to be industry leaders, full professors, and top researchers in the future. Look at the dominance of Stanford in the tech/VC space or Harvard in biotech and bioengineering. If you have high risk tolerance, this could be the start of a foundational journey backed by limitless resources.

What is your definition of an average student at Harvard or Stanford?

My son graduated from Stanford likely in the bottom 50% with his GPA. Since he graduated 9 years ago he has had so many doors opened simply because of the name. He was not low income and his trajectory has been amazing….even at the bottom of the pack at Stanford…

Statistically, he could've had the same doors open from Texas A&M or Umich. It really is overstated how many doors open for the average, upper middle class student.

[Anonymous]

It depends on what you want out of life, career, and education. I went to an HYPS school. I've had jobs where most of my peers went to elite schools, and I've had others where I was an outlier.

While in school, an advantage was the sheer breadth of classes and EC opportunities. I double-majored, played a club sport, and was active in theater. I think all of these helped build skills and network, but they also just made college fun for me.

Name recognition and recommendations from world-renowned professors almost surely helped my grad school applications...not just my grades etc.

In my career, I've made significant pivots. Once again, I think name recognition made people more likely to take a chance on me. And while I never got a job directly through my alumni network, it has been useful in terms of having conversations and seeking advice.

I'm C-suite now, and only the CEO has a similar educational background (Oxford). But I've had the least straightforward path to this role, and I think my elite school helped me get here without having to focus from Day 1.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'll say that most students don't go into a top college because they groomed themselves selectively for it. They were top students, and thought they might as well put their application into a top college.

For the average student, it really doesn't change their trajectory much unless they grew up low income. But for the top students, it is truly the best environment to be and they tend to be industry leaders, full professors, and top researchers in the future. Look at the dominance of Stanford in the tech/VC space or Harvard in biotech and bioengineering. If you have high risk tolerance, this could be the start of a foundational journey backed by limitless resources.

What is your definition of an average student at Harvard or Stanford?

My son graduated from Stanford likely in the bottom 50% with his GPA. Since he graduated 9 years ago he has had so many doors opened simply because of the name. He was not low income and his trajectory has been amazing….even at the bottom of the pack at Stanford…

Statistically, he could've had the same doors open from Texas A&M or Umich. It really is overstated how many doors open for the average, upper middle class student.

He would have NEVER had the chances he had with an A&M degree or Michigan degree no matter how much you want to pretend that he would have….NEVER.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'll say that most students don't go into a top college because they groomed themselves selectively for it. They were top students, and thought they might as well put their application into a top college.

For the average student, it really doesn't change their trajectory much unless they grew up low income. But for the top students, it is truly the best environment to be and they tend to be industry leaders, full professors, and top researchers in the future. Look at the dominance of Stanford in the tech/VC space or Harvard in biotech and bioengineering. If you have high risk tolerance, this could be the start of a foundational journey backed by limitless resources.

What is your definition of an average student at Harvard or Stanford?

My son graduated from Stanford likely in the bottom 50% with his GPA. Since he graduated 9 years ago he has had so many doors opened simply because of the name. He was not low income and his trajectory has been amazing….even at the bottom of the pack at Stanford…

Statistically, he could've had the same doors open from Texas A&M or Umich. It really is overstated how many doors open for the average, upper middle class student.

He would have NEVER had the chances he had with an A&M degree or Michigan degree no matter how much you want to pretend that he would have….NEVER.

My son went to a top state school, had his startup funded and has hired people from his own school, UT, Stanford and UChicago at his startup. He also had an average GPA at his school but I think that or his school have hardly held him back!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am not a troll. I’m the parent of a HS sophomore who is killing themselves excelling in school and participating in extracurriculars to be competitive for T20.

At the same time, I see parents on here posting how their kid went to Cornell and ended up in the same place as someone who went to Pitt or another similarly ranked school.

At the same time, in my job I work alongside people who have gone to ivies and schools I’ve never heard of. I went to Michigan, btw.

My sister did her undergraduate at Oxford, stayed in the UK and is now partner at a well respected consulting firm alongside other partners that went to no name schools from India.

So seeing the stress my kid goes through, I am honestly asking what is the point of a Yale or Princeton if they take you to the same place that a school like Rutgers and Radford can take you?!

Ah, the perennial 'does it really matter?' question from those comfortably outside the velvet rope. Let me illuminate the distinction you are evidently missing.
Your anecdotes about colleagues ending up in the same building or your sister at Oxford alongside Indian partners prove precisely nothing beyond basic competence. Of course raw talent exists everywhere. Pitt, Radford, no name schools in India. The point is not whether someone can succeed; it is how they succeed, where they start, and the effortless glide path provided.

Yale or Princeton are not merely schools; they are global keys to locked doors. They provide:
1. An instant, unassailable brand worldwide. A resume that bypasses HR algorithms and lands directly on the desks of people you will never meet. No explaining required. Ever.
2. A network that is the establishment. Your Michigan peers are fine. My classmates run the firms, funds, and faculties your peers aspire to join. This network is not LinkedIn connections; it is lifetime access to decision makers who answer calls because of the crest on the degree.
3. A concentration of ambition and resources. Your sophomore is stressed? Good. They are competing in the Olympics, not the county fair. At Rutgers, they might be the smartest in the room. At Princeton? They are sitting alongside future Nobel laureates, Fortune 500 CEOs, and Senators. The expectations, the peers, the opportunities, it is simply a different universe of potential.

Does a Pitt grad eventually land a good job? Possibly. Does the Princeton grad walk into McKinsey, Goldman as a baseline expectation? Routinely. The 'same place' you naively observe is often just the starting line for the elite grad, while it is the finish line for others. The trajectory, the ceiling, the sheer ease of ascent, that is what you are paying for. And what your child is striving for.

The 'point' is securing a position where merit is assumed, doors open silently, and the path to the top is not a grueling climb, but a well lit escalator.

If you cannot perceive that distinction from your vantage point at Michigan... well, that rather proves it, does it not?

Indian-American who attended a T10 in the 1990s on financial aid. I (sadly) agree with it all. My own Wall Street career is entirely due to the network and the expected trajectory.

My own kids are at T10 as well. Doors already opened for them in ways they are not for peers at Wisconsin, Pitt, Colorado, Maryland, UNC. No fighting to get prestigious internships, no gunning for clubs (you realize they don’t matter as much at elite schools). Just deciding on a career path and off you go.

Sigh, I agree as well. Former low income kid who went to T10 and was shocked at the doors it opened. Ours chose different ivies and have seen similar results.
I disagree however that it is “just decide and off you go(to any career)”, it takes work while in these elite undergrads, to end up with the big doors open. But it is very much true an average ivy kid has many more doors open than the top 5% of Pitt. Rarely does anyone cruise through. Mine have very high GPAs and put in the work to have them. Like the PP said, albeit with an overly pompous edge, “..(the ivy kids) are sitting alongside future nobel laureates, ceo, etc…. The expectations, the peers, the opportunities… it is a different universe of potential”.
Indeed it is. I continue to be amazed I got the chance. Many more financial aid kids are served by these institutions than in the 90s. It is wonderful.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'll say that most students don't go into a top college because they groomed themselves selectively for it. They were top students, and thought they might as well put their application into a top college.

For the average student, it really doesn't change their trajectory much unless they grew up low income. But for the top students, it is truly the best environment to be and they tend to be industry leaders, full professors, and top researchers in the future. Look at the dominance of Stanford in the tech/VC space or Harvard in biotech and bioengineering. If you have high risk tolerance, this could be the start of a foundational journey backed by limitless resources.

What is your definition of an average student at Harvard or Stanford?

My son graduated from Stanford likely in the bottom 50% with his GPA. Since he graduated 9 years ago he has had so many doors opened simply because of the name. He was not low income and his trajectory has been amazing….even at the bottom of the pack at Stanford…

Statistically, he could've had the same doors open from Texas A&M or Umich. It really is overstated how many doors open for the average, upper middle class student.

He would have NEVER had the chances he had with an A&M degree or Michigan degree no matter how much you want to pretend that he would have….NEVER.

100x yes. Unless you have a student there it is not possible to fully explain what these elites do for all of their students not just top ones.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am not a troll. I’m the parent of a HS sophomore who is killing themselves excelling in school and participating in extracurriculars to be competitive for T20.

At the same time, I see parents on here posting how their kid went to Cornell and ended up in the same place as someone who went to Pitt or another similarly ranked school.

At the same time, in my job I work alongside people who have gone to ivies and schools I’ve never heard of. I went to Michigan, btw.

My sister did her undergraduate at Oxford, stayed in the UK and is now partner at a well respected consulting firm alongside other partners that went to no name schools from India.

So seeing the stress my kid goes through, I am honestly asking what is the point of a Yale or Princeton if they take you to the same place that a school like Rutgers and Radford can take you?!

those people from no name schools are lucky. They had to work extra hard just for a chance that T20 grads had handed to them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Go to the school that will make you a better, well-rounded human being. That’s not necessarily the highest ranked school that accepts you. All work and no play makes a dull boy/girl.
That’s why my kid chose a big State U that has a rep as a fun place to be a student.

My kid is a better human beings since going to their ivy. They have more perspective on life and the benefits they have that others do not. Their ivy encourages engineers to be involved in arts or humanities pursuits, and in fact there are so many there who are they must be selecting for it. most elites seem to have that environment and energy of vibrant multidimensional students. Working hard and learning from the incredible peers is not dull at all for the right students. OP’s kid is not a fit.

[Anonymous]

This is like asking "what's the big deal with working hard at a high paying job when anyone can win the lottery and get rich that way"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Seems to depend on what you want to study and your value system.

I’m in medicine and literally does not matter what school. Many colleagues who went to Ivy for undergrad didn’t like their experience. Maybe ivy is good for careers PP posted- consulting, banking, PE, Wall Street)

For my super high stats kid, I still stress fit and vibe and opportunities for their interests.
For my above avg kid, I won’t make them kill themselves in HS. This is life too. Life is not just in the future.

I will admit that I don’t understand the operations of medicine at all.

My kid was admitted to Georgetown hospital and other than the attending in the ER, not one of the four other doctors that saw my kid even attended a US medical school.

They weren’t Caribbean schools…but European or Indian. None I would even remotely recognize.

This is so weird. Were you asking each doctor you saw what school they went to?

I look up where my doctors went to med school. I have complicated medical history, and the phone it in Caribbean doctors always get my case wrong.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'll say that most students don't go into a top college because they groomed themselves selectively for it. They were top students, and thought they might as well put their application into a top college.

For the average student, it really doesn't change their trajectory much unless they grew up low income. But for the top students, it is truly the best environment to be and they tend to be industry leaders, full professors, and top researchers in the future. Look at the dominance of Stanford in the tech/VC space or Harvard in biotech and bioengineering. If you have high risk tolerance, this could be the start of a foundational journey backed by limitless resources.

What is your definition of an average student at Harvard or Stanford?

My son graduated from Stanford likely in the bottom 50% with his GPA. Since he graduated 9 years ago he has had so many doors opened simply because of the name. He was not low income and his trajectory has been amazing….even at the bottom of the pack at Stanford…

Statistically, he could've had the same doors open from Texas A&M or Umich. It really is overstated how many doors open for the average, upper middle class student.

He would have NEVER had the chances he had with an A&M degree or Michigan degree no matter how much you want to pretend that he would have….NEVER.

100x yes. Unless you have a student there it is not possible to fully explain what these elites do for all of their students not just top ones.

I'm a Stanford alum and my kid goes to Harvard, and...no, he really could've gotten most of what he has at a state school-maybe not the exact professors or clubs/connections, but he definitely could've gotten something similar. Unless you're really into IB or some other financial career, a majority of these grads aren't getting anything overwhelmingly exceptional.

I loved my education and the people around me.

[Anonymous]

For those who don't come from wealth or have connections, especially if they are students of color, top schools can provide a gateway to opportunities they otherwise might not have.

But also, unless I missed it, no one has mentioned the fact that while brains and talent emerge from a multitude of backgrounds and attending a "no name" school in the U.S. doesn't automatically shut people out from any given industry, students from "top" schools are disproportionally represented amongst those in the most prestigious and/or high-paying fields, which leads me to another point that I don't think anyone has mentioned: Trump, Kushner and G.W. Bush aside, most of the students at schools like Harvard are very, very capable intellectually, and the rigor of the education they receive more or less correlates to that ability--at least as reflected by a comparison of workloads and standards relative to those typical at non-peer schools. Sure, grades are inflated and students do less work at elite institutions today than they did when I was an undergraduate, but they still require a level of achievement exceeding that demonstrated by most U.S. undergraduates.