Anonymous wrote:Does TJ automatically accept the top 1.5% of each middle school? When you have many more than 1.5% taking the same classes and getting all A’s, what happens next?
The top 1.5% doesn't refer to GPA or courses taken.
All kids applying to TJ write a bunch of personal essays and a problem solving essay. The essays are graded, and the kids' scores are based on the essay scores, unweighted GPA, and experience factors (FARMS, IEP, ESOL). The unweighted GPA is not a huge factor, and they don't even look at courses taken or math level.
If a school has 600 8th graders, then it is guaranteed 1.5% of 600 = 9 TJ spots. The 9 kids with the highest scores are offered admissions.
But the highest scores are not the smartest or most prepared, due to the new system eliminating math level, objective testing, courses taken and teacher recommendations, correct?
That is correct. They may be the smartest. They may not be. The ranking is mostly based on the essays and experience factors.
+1
The idea was to get as close to a lottery as possible, which was the solution that the FCPS board tried to push the hardest.
Put a low threshold so that many would qualify and then try to keep the information available on the student to the minimum possible. Then, you get closer to the desired "should represent FCPS demographics". The main problem for FCPS board from achieving this is because of self selection bias and the pool of students who are applying do not represent FCPS demographics.
Just like most opportunists who took advantage of the riots in 2020 to pursue their own interests, FCPS board did the same.
Not really.. The idea was to address the rampant cheating that had tainted selection since many were buying early access to the entrance exam.
I am sorry your child did not get in. Please do not be bitter, as it would impact your child.
I understand your frustration and why you are agitated, but calm down for your kids sake.
There were test banks at certain prep schools with questions kids memorized and told the schools. The test banks gave the students at those schools an advantage. We have seen issues with the AMC tests along these lines as well. MathCounts reminds parents to not take pictures of questions and post them because there are kids in other sections taking the tests later. There is plenty of evidence of cheating/unfair advantages in higher level math competitions and tests.
as fictional as your stories are, can you dare to name one prep school that did this?
DP but wasn’t it Curie? They used to post the names of all their students who got accepted to TJ and it was close to if not over 100 students every year until the criteria changed.
It was one year. They did that one year and the parents were furious to see their kids names in the newspaper identified as having prepped since 3rd grade.
Some students admitted to [bold]memorizing[/bold] and providing questions back to Curie to include in the test bank. That was the year that the Quant test was dropped. The suspicion is that other programs were doing something similar but had not had the same level of success.
you have a cite for this?
There is no way to know if the students who were named had prepped since 3rd grade, the listing only included them in the specific program to prepare for the TJ test that year. There is speculation that many of the kids participated in enrichment programs for a long time. I could care less about that. My kid does math enichment because he enjoys it. Does it help him in school? Yes. Will it help him with whatever test TJ admission uses? Yes. There is no way to remove that element.
Creating a test bank of used questions is a step above enrichment. The test company was not doing its job in adjusting the test on an annual basis, which allowed the test bank to be more useful. There were posts that kids had studied the exact questions that were on the exam, that is a failure of the company. That said, kids were given a huge edge if they were willing to pay a good amount of money to participate in a specific program to gain an advantage.
The"good amount of money" in question is $300. That's what you pay for test prep above the enrichment.
This isn't the SAT or ACT or LSAT or GRE where there are test books available and prep classes are commonplace. It isn't even the tests used by private schools that have tutors and prep programs. It was a test for a specific high school that is supposed to serve all of the kids in the area, not just kids who have access to schools with test banks. You cannot replace the Quant with something used at school because the vast majority of the kids applying to TJ should be passing advanced on their math SOL. Requiring an advanced pass on the math SOL would not remove most of the kids and the scores on the math SOLs for the Honors math classes in MS tend to average high. They really won't help with discriminating between students.
The SHSAT exists and pro books exist for it. There were prep books for the TJ test and quant Q. The prep part of this is the easiest part. Use the PSAT of you want something ubiquitous. That's what they use now for froshmore admissions.
And even under that system there were parents complaining about who was accepted and chagrin that genius child from school X who participated in national competition y was not accepted. There is always going to be complaining about the admissions process. TJ is a public school that is meant to serve the population that is advanced and enjoys STEM. Your version of who should be accepted based on classes is simply different then what the administration thinks.
Any complaints can safely be ignored when the admission standards are objective and merit based.
The current method is subjective and has only a hint of merit.
DP. The "prep books for the quant Q" are laughable and are basically a scam. They are expensive and absolutely worthless, if you look at them instead of just tout their existence. The prep from they-who-shall-not-be-named was invaluable, the proof was on their website.
TJ test prep at cutie was a $300 module over a few weeks.
Many parents spent far more than a few hundred dollars for TJ test prep.
The TJ test prep module at Curie was $300. Curie is the test prep everyone seems to be offended by. It's a classroom setting not one on one tutoring.
No, we are talking about all of the great lengths that parents would go to in order to give their kids a leg up. Years of prep, moving to be in the "right" school zone, counselors to determine the best activities, etc. Wealthy parents have the knowledge and means to game the system and the admissions reflected that.
Wealthy parents don't send their kids to TJ. Wealthy parents in McLean send their kids to Potomac or Flint Hill for the less academically inclined kids.
There is a lot of wealth in this area. Wealthy families have options - some focus on private, others focus on TJ. Either way, they have the knowledge and means to give their kids a leg up in admissions.
1. Kids from wealthier families have many advantages over kids from lower-income families across the board when it comes to education. Family knowledge and support, tutoring, prep classes, special extracurricular activities, grades, test scores, etc.
2. Wealthier parents can and do pay for things to improve their kids’ chances.
3. Wealthier parents tend to understand the application process better - for both TJ and private school.
4. Kids from wealthier families have a higher chance of admission to TJ and private school.
5. Some middle schools have more kids from wealthier families than others.
6. Before the admissions change, there were many middle schools that had no representation at TJ. Those middle schools tended to have high FRE %s.
If wealth were the pathway to TJ then TJ would be majority white. Clearly there is something other than wealth at play.
Certainly. Yes, wealthy white families know that TJ will be a grind and decrease their kids’ chances at top colleges.
That’s why a lower % of eligible white kids apply and why many don’t attend even after being accepted.
The class of 2015 was majority white. They seemed interested in TJ before the Asian population around here. White kids haven't been staying away, they have been getting crowded out by a large influx of asian kids
Everybody knows TJ will be difficult. Everybody knows that going to TJ will probably not improve your college admissions results. But the reason some kids go anyway is because the training at TJ is better.
In any event, with a 17% acceptance rate among white kids, the notion that white kids don't want to go to TJ is silly. And considering the economic disparity between whites and asians, the notion that admissions is driven solely or even primarily by wealth is silly.
The last time we did the math, almost 100% of eligible Asian students applied to TJ and only about 50% of white students.
White students also turned down TJ at a high rate than Asian students.
I’ve shared the data in the past and can it out again if you want to revisit.
It’s not solely about wealth, but kids from affluent families definitely had a huge advantage over kids who aren’t.
Kids from affluent MSs had a higher chance of getting into the pool. And accepted.
I'm familiar with the data.
Yes, white students self select and Asians apply almost indiscriminately and yet Asians applying indiscriminately STILL have a higher acceptance rate. White kids don't stay away because they don't want TJ they stay away because they know their limits
Wealth always helps, even now. But the Stuyvesant' example shows us that it is not even close to being determinative. It also shows us that testing doesn't exclude poor kids.
Kids from Rocky Run tested into the pool just as frequently as kids from Carson. The Carson kids got in more frequently than the Rocky Run kids based on the holistic elements.
Carson and Rocky Run have similar % FRE (16%, 19%) and similar % admitted pool 50%, 51%).
Now compare to Cooper (4% FRE) with 64% admitted to pool.
Or Jackson (53% FRE) with 36% admitted to pool.
For class of 2024.
When you look across the MSs (and don’t just cherry pick) you can see that middle schools with more affluent families had higher % acceptance to the pool.
And?
Money helps in various ways for the TJ admissions process (even now). One way was testing into the pool.
Do you think advanced academic abilities, in general, is equally distributed across SES?
No. A lot of “advanced academic abilities” are developed c/o $$$$. Family knowledge and support, tutoring, prep classes, special extracurricular activities, etc.
This is 100% true, the same way that a lot of advanced athletic abilities are developed c/o $$$$. Family knowledge and support, private lessons, prep sessions, special extracurricular sports teams/travel sports, etc.
The athletes who have parents invest time and money into them are the ones who end up playing varsity sports, in college, and eventually in professional sports leagues. That is how sports work but…..none of that is possible without the players determination and dedication. Some players also are born with extreme natural athletic abilities, especially children of professional athletes or other high level athletes. They have inherited specific genes that allow them to be faster, more coordinated, etc.
I don’t understand why so many people on this forum make it seem like a “BAD” thing that some parents choose to spend money on increasing their children’s academic potential. Is it a bad thing to do what you can to help your children’s academic potential?
It isn’t only wealthy families that put effort into their children’s education. Parents can choose to raise their children so that they are focused on academics and reaching their potential. Most students spend hours a day on screens. TV, phones, gaming, watching YouTube. Parents are ultimately allowing this to happen. Instead of watching other people to their makeup or play video games, parents could choose to have their children watch educational videos. Instead of playing games parents could require their students to play educational games online, or study the materials they are learning in school. Everyone with an income has to decide how to spend their money. Some parents choose to focus all of their efforts on their children, other parents choose to buy an expensive iPhone.
Step aside a bit from your little bubble.
Most parents understand your theory, but they don’t have the previledge to sit the whole day redirecting what your kid doing or drive your kid anywhere to meaningful activities.
There is bills and rent to pay, food to put in the table. Some family only can make bare minimum with both parents working their butt off, some don’t need to do anything for the next few generations because of their wealth.
Generalization is not a good term.
Get out of the woke mindset, and ask your self: Why is it that these same families find time and financial resources to support athletics but not academics? Should their students be forced to pursue something they are not interested in?
Which families are you referring to?
Fictional families
Those wealthy family who support their athletics kids is not fighting the seat at TJ.
Of course, they are not interested in TJ. Instead they are focused on getting a spot on the public school sports team.
So completely irrelevant to this discussion…
It does actually if you can comprehend the context better.
Certain poster here keep picturing “Poe MS - example” kid who get into TJ as: wealthy family who doesn’t have interest in Stem, get in by the handout, doesn’t care about academic tutoring but they are willing to spent alot of their money on basketball things.
They mixed up two different type of family, unrelated, for a narrative.
So a Poe MS family who spends time and money on their student's sports interests is not wealthy? But if another Poe MS family spends resources on their student's academic interests is wealthy?
They are both can be wealthy or not wealthy.
The point is, the one invested in sports are not interested in TJ, they are somewhere else (not TJ) doing their own sports thing.
In this forum, they make narrative that the basketball kid rob the seat of the stem kid.
Rob, how? Basketball kid is doing prepping to get on school team. And academic kid is doing enrichment to get into advanced academics like TJ. Not where the wealthy discussion is coming from?
Anonymous wrote:Does TJ automatically accept the top 1.5% of each middle school? When you have many more than 1.5% taking the same classes and getting all A’s, what happens next?
The top 1.5% doesn't refer to GPA or courses taken.
All kids applying to TJ write a bunch of personal essays and a problem solving essay. The essays are graded, and the kids' scores are based on the essay scores, unweighted GPA, and experience factors (FARMS, IEP, ESOL). The unweighted GPA is not a huge factor, and they don't even look at courses taken or math level.
If a school has 600 8th graders, then it is guaranteed 1.5% of 600 = 9 TJ spots. The 9 kids with the highest scores are offered admissions.
But the highest scores are not the smartest or most prepared, due to the new system eliminating math level, objective testing, courses taken and teacher recommendations, correct?
That is correct. They may be the smartest. They may not be. The ranking is mostly based on the essays and experience factors.
+1
The idea was to get as close to a lottery as possible, which was the solution that the FCPS board tried to push the hardest.
Put a low threshold so that many would qualify and then try to keep the information available on the student to the minimum possible. Then, you get closer to the desired "should represent FCPS demographics". The main problem for FCPS board from achieving this is because of self selection bias and the pool of students who are applying do not represent FCPS demographics.
Just like most opportunists who took advantage of the riots in 2020 to pursue their own interests, FCPS board did the same.
Not really.. The idea was to address the rampant cheating that had tainted selection since many were buying early access to the entrance exam.
I am sorry your child did not get in. Please do not be bitter, as it would impact your child.
I understand your frustration and why you are agitated, but calm down for your kids sake.
There were test banks at certain prep schools with questions kids memorized and told the schools. The test banks gave the students at those schools an advantage. We have seen issues with the AMC tests along these lines as well. MathCounts reminds parents to not take pictures of questions and post them because there are kids in other sections taking the tests later. There is plenty of evidence of cheating/unfair advantages in higher level math competitions and tests.
as fictional as your stories are, can you dare to name one prep school that did this?
DP but wasn’t it Curie? They used to post the names of all their students who got accepted to TJ and it was close to if not over 100 students every year until the criteria changed.
It was one year. They did that one year and the parents were furious to see their kids names in the newspaper identified as having prepped since 3rd grade.
Some students admitted to [bold]memorizing[/bold] and providing questions back to Curie to include in the test bank. That was the year that the Quant test was dropped. The suspicion is that other programs were doing something similar but had not had the same level of success.
you have a cite for this?
There is no way to know if the students who were named had prepped since 3rd grade, the listing only included them in the specific program to prepare for the TJ test that year. There is speculation that many of the kids participated in enrichment programs for a long time. I could care less about that. My kid does math enichment because he enjoys it. Does it help him in school? Yes. Will it help him with whatever test TJ admission uses? Yes. There is no way to remove that element.
Creating a test bank of used questions is a step above enrichment. The test company was not doing its job in adjusting the test on an annual basis, which allowed the test bank to be more useful. There were posts that kids had studied the exact questions that were on the exam, that is a failure of the company. That said, kids were given a huge edge if they were willing to pay a good amount of money to participate in a specific program to gain an advantage.
The"good amount of money" in question is $300. That's what you pay for test prep above the enrichment.
This isn't the SAT or ACT or LSAT or GRE where there are test books available and prep classes are commonplace. It isn't even the tests used by private schools that have tutors and prep programs. It was a test for a specific high school that is supposed to serve all of the kids in the area, not just kids who have access to schools with test banks. You cannot replace the Quant with something used at school because the vast majority of the kids applying to TJ should be passing advanced on their math SOL. Requiring an advanced pass on the math SOL would not remove most of the kids and the scores on the math SOLs for the Honors math classes in MS tend to average high. They really won't help with discriminating between students.
The SHSAT exists and pro books exist for it. There were prep books for the TJ test and quant Q. The prep part of this is the easiest part. Use the PSAT of you want something ubiquitous. That's what they use now for froshmore admissions.
And even under that system there were parents complaining about who was accepted and chagrin that genius child from school X who participated in national competition y was not accepted. There is always going to be complaining about the admissions process. TJ is a public school that is meant to serve the population that is advanced and enjoys STEM. Your version of who should be accepted based on classes is simply different then what the administration thinks.
Any complaints can safely be ignored when the admission standards are objective and merit based.
The current method is subjective and has only a hint of merit.
DP. The "prep books for the quant Q" are laughable and are basically a scam. They are expensive and absolutely worthless, if you look at them instead of just tout their existence. The prep from they-who-shall-not-be-named was invaluable, the proof was on their website.
TJ test prep at cutie was a $300 module over a few weeks.
Many parents spent far more than a few hundred dollars for TJ test prep.
The TJ test prep module at Curie was $300. Curie is the test prep everyone seems to be offended by. It's a classroom setting not one on one tutoring.
No, we are talking about all of the great lengths that parents would go to in order to give their kids a leg up. Years of prep, moving to be in the "right" school zone, counselors to determine the best activities, etc. Wealthy parents have the knowledge and means to game the system and the admissions reflected that.
Wealthy parents don't send their kids to TJ. Wealthy parents in McLean send their kids to Potomac or Flint Hill for the less academically inclined kids.
There is a lot of wealth in this area. Wealthy families have options - some focus on private, others focus on TJ. Either way, they have the knowledge and means to give their kids a leg up in admissions.
1. Kids from wealthier families have many advantages over kids from lower-income families across the board when it comes to education. Family knowledge and support, tutoring, prep classes, special extracurricular activities, grades, test scores, etc.
2. Wealthier parents can and do pay for things to improve their kids’ chances.
3. Wealthier parents tend to understand the application process better - for both TJ and private school.
4. Kids from wealthier families have a higher chance of admission to TJ and private school.
5. Some middle schools have more kids from wealthier families than others.
6. Before the admissions change, there were many middle schools that had no representation at TJ. Those middle schools tended to have high FRE %s.
If wealth were the pathway to TJ then TJ would be majority white. Clearly there is something other than wealth at play.
Certainly. Yes, wealthy white families know that TJ will be a grind and decrease their kids’ chances at top colleges.
That’s why a lower % of eligible white kids apply and why many don’t attend even after being accepted.
The class of 2015 was majority white. They seemed interested in TJ before the Asian population around here. White kids haven't been staying away, they have been getting crowded out by a large influx of asian kids
Everybody knows TJ will be difficult. Everybody knows that going to TJ will probably not improve your college admissions results. But the reason some kids go anyway is because the training at TJ is better.
In any event, with a 17% acceptance rate among white kids, the notion that white kids don't want to go to TJ is silly. And considering the economic disparity between whites and asians, the notion that admissions is driven solely or even primarily by wealth is silly.
The last time we did the math, almost 100% of eligible Asian students applied to TJ and only about 50% of white students.
White students also turned down TJ at a high rate than Asian students.
I’ve shared the data in the past and can it out again if you want to revisit.
It’s not solely about wealth, but kids from affluent families definitely had a huge advantage over kids who aren’t.
Kids from affluent MSs had a higher chance of getting into the pool. And accepted.
I'm familiar with the data.
Yes, white students self select and Asians apply almost indiscriminately and yet Asians applying indiscriminately STILL have a higher acceptance rate. White kids don't stay away because they don't want TJ they stay away because they know their limits
Wealth always helps, even now. But the Stuyvesant' example shows us that it is not even close to being determinative. It also shows us that testing doesn't exclude poor kids.
Kids from Rocky Run tested into the pool just as frequently as kids from Carson. The Carson kids got in more frequently than the Rocky Run kids based on the holistic elements.
Carson and Rocky Run have similar % FRE (16%, 19%) and similar % admitted pool 50%, 51%).
Now compare to Cooper (4% FRE) with 64% admitted to pool.
Or Jackson (53% FRE) with 36% admitted to pool.
For class of 2024.
When you look across the MSs (and don’t just cherry pick) you can see that middle schools with more affluent families had higher % acceptance to the pool.
And?
Money helps in various ways for the TJ admissions process (even now). One way was testing into the pool.
Do you think advanced academic abilities, in general, is equally distributed across SES?
No. A lot of “advanced academic abilities” are developed c/o $$$$. Family knowledge and support, tutoring, prep classes, special extracurricular activities, etc.
This is 100% true, the same way that a lot of advanced athletic abilities are developed c/o $$$$. Family knowledge and support, private lessons, prep sessions, special extracurricular sports teams/travel sports, etc.
The athletes who have parents invest time and money into them are the ones who end up playing varsity sports, in college, and eventually in professional sports leagues. That is how sports work but…..none of that is possible without the players determination and dedication. Some players also are born with extreme natural athletic abilities, especially children of professional athletes or other high level athletes. They have inherited specific genes that allow them to be faster, more coordinated, etc.
I don’t understand why so many people on this forum make it seem like a “BAD” thing that some parents choose to spend money on increasing their children’s academic potential. Is it a bad thing to do what you can to help your children’s academic potential?
It isn’t only wealthy families that put effort into their children’s education. Parents can choose to raise their children so that they are focused on academics and reaching their potential. Most students spend hours a day on screens. TV, phones, gaming, watching YouTube. Parents are ultimately allowing this to happen. Instead of watching other people to their makeup or play video games, parents could choose to have their children watch educational videos. Instead of playing games parents could require their students to play educational games online, or study the materials they are learning in school. Everyone with an income has to decide how to spend their money. Some parents choose to focus all of their efforts on their children, other parents choose to buy an expensive iPhone.
Step aside a bit from your little bubble.
Most parents understand your theory, but they don’t have the previledge to sit the whole day redirecting what your kid doing or drive your kid anywhere to meaningful activities.
There is bills and rent to pay, food to put in the table. Some family only can make bare minimum with both parents working their butt off, some don’t need to do anything for the next few generations because of their wealth.
Generalization is not a good term.
Get out of the woke mindset, and ask your self: Why is it that these same families find time and financial resources to support athletics but not academics? Should their students be forced to pursue something they are not interested in?
Which families are you referring to?
Fictional families
Those wealthy family who support their athletics kids is not fighting the seat at TJ.
Of course, they are not interested in TJ. Instead they are focused on getting a spot on the public school sports team.
So completely irrelevant to this discussion…
It does actually if you can comprehend the context better.
Certain poster here keep picturing “Poe MS - example” kid who get into TJ as: wealthy family who doesn’t have interest in Stem, get in by the handout, doesn’t care about academic tutoring but they are willing to spent alot of their money on basketball things.
They mixed up two different type of family, unrelated, for a narrative.
So a Poe MS family who spends time and money on their student's sports interests is not wealthy? But if another Poe MS family spends resources on their student's academic interests is wealthy?
They are both can be wealthy or not wealthy.
The point is, the one invested in sports are not interested in TJ, they are somewhere else (not TJ) doing their own sports thing.
In this forum, they make narrative that the basketball kid rob the seat of the stem kid.
Rob, how? Basketball kid is doing prepping to get on school team. And academic kid is doing enrichment to get into advanced academics like TJ. Not where the wealthy discussion is coming from?
Anonymous wrote:Does TJ automatically accept the top 1.5% of each middle school? When you have many more than 1.5% taking the same classes and getting all A’s, what happens next?
The top 1.5% doesn't refer to GPA or courses taken.
All kids applying to TJ write a bunch of personal essays and a problem solving essay. The essays are graded, and the kids' scores are based on the essay scores, unweighted GPA, and experience factors (FARMS, IEP, ESOL). The unweighted GPA is not a huge factor, and they don't even look at courses taken or math level.
If a school has 600 8th graders, then it is guaranteed 1.5% of 600 = 9 TJ spots. The 9 kids with the highest scores are offered admissions.
But the highest scores are not the smartest or most prepared, due to the new system eliminating math level, objective testing, courses taken and teacher recommendations, correct?
That is correct. They may be the smartest. They may not be. The ranking is mostly based on the essays and experience factors.
+1
The idea was to get as close to a lottery as possible, which was the solution that the FCPS board tried to push the hardest.
Put a low threshold so that many would qualify and then try to keep the information available on the student to the minimum possible. Then, you get closer to the desired "should represent FCPS demographics". The main problem for FCPS board from achieving this is because of self selection bias and the pool of students who are applying do not represent FCPS demographics.
Just like most opportunists who took advantage of the riots in 2020 to pursue their own interests, FCPS board did the same.
Not really.. The idea was to address the rampant cheating that had tainted selection since many were buying early access to the entrance exam.
I am sorry your child did not get in. Please do not be bitter, as it would impact your child.
I understand your frustration and why you are agitated, but calm down for your kids sake.
There were test banks at certain prep schools with questions kids memorized and told the schools. The test banks gave the students at those schools an advantage. We have seen issues with the AMC tests along these lines as well. MathCounts reminds parents to not take pictures of questions and post them because there are kids in other sections taking the tests later. There is plenty of evidence of cheating/unfair advantages in higher level math competitions and tests.
as fictional as your stories are, can you dare to name one prep school that did this?
DP but wasn’t it Curie? They used to post the names of all their students who got accepted to TJ and it was close to if not over 100 students every year until the criteria changed.
It was one year. They did that one year and the parents were furious to see their kids names in the newspaper identified as having prepped since 3rd grade.
Some students admitted to [bold]memorizing[/bold] and providing questions back to Curie to include in the test bank. That was the year that the Quant test was dropped. The suspicion is that other programs were doing something similar but had not had the same level of success.
you have a cite for this?
There is no way to know if the students who were named had prepped since 3rd grade, the listing only included them in the specific program to prepare for the TJ test that year. There is speculation that many of the kids participated in enrichment programs for a long time. I could care less about that. My kid does math enichment because he enjoys it. Does it help him in school? Yes. Will it help him with whatever test TJ admission uses? Yes. There is no way to remove that element.
Creating a test bank of used questions is a step above enrichment. The test company was not doing its job in adjusting the test on an annual basis, which allowed the test bank to be more useful. There were posts that kids had studied the exact questions that were on the exam, that is a failure of the company. That said, kids were given a huge edge if they were willing to pay a good amount of money to participate in a specific program to gain an advantage.
The"good amount of money" in question is $300. That's what you pay for test prep above the enrichment.
This isn't the SAT or ACT or LSAT or GRE where there are test books available and prep classes are commonplace. It isn't even the tests used by private schools that have tutors and prep programs. It was a test for a specific high school that is supposed to serve all of the kids in the area, not just kids who have access to schools with test banks. You cannot replace the Quant with something used at school because the vast majority of the kids applying to TJ should be passing advanced on their math SOL. Requiring an advanced pass on the math SOL would not remove most of the kids and the scores on the math SOLs for the Honors math classes in MS tend to average high. They really won't help with discriminating between students.
The SHSAT exists and pro books exist for it. There were prep books for the TJ test and quant Q. The prep part of this is the easiest part. Use the PSAT of you want something ubiquitous. That's what they use now for froshmore admissions.
And even under that system there were parents complaining about who was accepted and chagrin that genius child from school X who participated in national competition y was not accepted. There is always going to be complaining about the admissions process. TJ is a public school that is meant to serve the population that is advanced and enjoys STEM. Your version of who should be accepted based on classes is simply different then what the administration thinks.
Any complaints can safely be ignored when the admission standards are objective and merit based.
The current method is subjective and has only a hint of merit.
DP. The "prep books for the quant Q" are laughable and are basically a scam. They are expensive and absolutely worthless, if you look at them instead of just tout their existence. The prep from they-who-shall-not-be-named was invaluable, the proof was on their website.
TJ test prep at cutie was a $300 module over a few weeks.
Many parents spent far more than a few hundred dollars for TJ test prep.
The TJ test prep module at Curie was $300. Curie is the test prep everyone seems to be offended by. It's a classroom setting not one on one tutoring.
No, we are talking about all of the great lengths that parents would go to in order to give their kids a leg up. Years of prep, moving to be in the "right" school zone, counselors to determine the best activities, etc. Wealthy parents have the knowledge and means to game the system and the admissions reflected that.
Wealthy parents don't send their kids to TJ. Wealthy parents in McLean send their kids to Potomac or Flint Hill for the less academically inclined kids.
There is a lot of wealth in this area. Wealthy families have options - some focus on private, others focus on TJ. Either way, they have the knowledge and means to give their kids a leg up in admissions.
1. Kids from wealthier families have many advantages over kids from lower-income families across the board when it comes to education. Family knowledge and support, tutoring, prep classes, special extracurricular activities, grades, test scores, etc.
2. Wealthier parents can and do pay for things to improve their kids’ chances.
3. Wealthier parents tend to understand the application process better - for both TJ and private school.
4. Kids from wealthier families have a higher chance of admission to TJ and private school.
5. Some middle schools have more kids from wealthier families than others.
6. Before the admissions change, there were many middle schools that had no representation at TJ. Those middle schools tended to have high FRE %s.
If wealth were the pathway to TJ then TJ would be majority white. Clearly there is something other than wealth at play.
Certainly. Yes, wealthy white families know that TJ will be a grind and decrease their kids’ chances at top colleges.
That’s why a lower % of eligible white kids apply and why many don’t attend even after being accepted.
The class of 2015 was majority white. They seemed interested in TJ before the Asian population around here. White kids haven't been staying away, they have been getting crowded out by a large influx of asian kids
Everybody knows TJ will be difficult. Everybody knows that going to TJ will probably not improve your college admissions results. But the reason some kids go anyway is because the training at TJ is better.
In any event, with a 17% acceptance rate among white kids, the notion that white kids don't want to go to TJ is silly. And considering the economic disparity between whites and asians, the notion that admissions is driven solely or even primarily by wealth is silly.
The last time we did the math, almost 100% of eligible Asian students applied to TJ and only about 50% of white students.
White students also turned down TJ at a high rate than Asian students.
I’ve shared the data in the past and can it out again if you want to revisit.
It’s not solely about wealth, but kids from affluent families definitely had a huge advantage over kids who aren’t.
Kids from affluent MSs had a higher chance of getting into the pool. And accepted.
I'm familiar with the data.
Yes, white students self select and Asians apply almost indiscriminately and yet Asians applying indiscriminately STILL have a higher acceptance rate. White kids don't stay away because they don't want TJ they stay away because they know their limits
Wealth always helps, even now. But the Stuyvesant' example shows us that it is not even close to being determinative. It also shows us that testing doesn't exclude poor kids.
Kids from Rocky Run tested into the pool just as frequently as kids from Carson. The Carson kids got in more frequently than the Rocky Run kids based on the holistic elements.
Carson and Rocky Run have similar % FRE (16%, 19%) and similar % admitted pool 50%, 51%).
Now compare to Cooper (4% FRE) with 64% admitted to pool.
Or Jackson (53% FRE) with 36% admitted to pool.
For class of 2024.
When you look across the MSs (and don’t just cherry pick) you can see that middle schools with more affluent families had higher % acceptance to the pool.
And?
Money helps in various ways for the TJ admissions process (even now). One way was testing into the pool.
Do you think advanced academic abilities, in general, is equally distributed across SES?
No. A lot of “advanced academic abilities” are developed c/o $$$$. Family knowledge and support, tutoring, prep classes, special extracurricular activities, etc.
This is 100% true, the same way that a lot of advanced athletic abilities are developed c/o $$$$. Family knowledge and support, private lessons, prep sessions, special extracurricular sports teams/travel sports, etc.
The athletes who have parents invest time and money into them are the ones who end up playing varsity sports, in college, and eventually in professional sports leagues. That is how sports work but…..none of that is possible without the players determination and dedication. Some players also are born with extreme natural athletic abilities, especially children of professional athletes or other high level athletes. They have inherited specific genes that allow them to be faster, more coordinated, etc.
I don’t understand why so many people on this forum make it seem like a “BAD” thing that some parents choose to spend money on increasing their children’s academic potential. Is it a bad thing to do what you can to help your children’s academic potential?
It isn’t only wealthy families that put effort into their children’s education. Parents can choose to raise their children so that they are focused on academics and reaching their potential. Most students spend hours a day on screens. TV, phones, gaming, watching YouTube. Parents are ultimately allowing this to happen. Instead of watching other people to their makeup or play video games, parents could choose to have their children watch educational videos. Instead of playing games parents could require their students to play educational games online, or study the materials they are learning in school. Everyone with an income has to decide how to spend their money. Some parents choose to focus all of their efforts on their children, other parents choose to buy an expensive iPhone.
Step aside a bit from your little bubble.
Most parents understand your theory, but they don’t have the previledge to sit the whole day redirecting what your kid doing or drive your kid anywhere to meaningful activities.
There is bills and rent to pay, food to put in the table. Some family only can make bare minimum with both parents working their butt off, some don’t need to do anything for the next few generations because of their wealth.
Generalization is not a good term.
Get out of the woke mindset, and ask your self: Why is it that these same families find time and financial resources to support athletics but not academics? Should their students be forced to pursue something they are not interested in?
Which families are you referring to?
Fictional families
Those wealthy family who support their athletics kids is not fighting the seat at TJ.
Of course, they are not interested in TJ. Instead they are focused on getting a spot on the public school sports team.
So completely irrelevant to this discussion…
It does actually if you can comprehend the context better.
Certain poster here keep picturing “Poe MS - example” kid who get into TJ as: wealthy family who doesn’t have interest in Stem, get in by the handout, doesn’t care about academic tutoring but they are willing to spent alot of their money on basketball things.
They mixed up two different type of family, unrelated, for a narrative.
So a Poe MS family who spends time and money on their student's sports interests is not wealthy? But if another Poe MS family spends resources on their student's academic interests is wealthy?
They are both can be wealthy or not wealthy.
The point is, the one invested in sports are not interested in TJ, they are somewhere else (not TJ) doing their own sports thing.
In this forum, they make narrative that the basketball kid rob the seat of the stem kid.
Rob, how? Basketball kid is doing prepping to get on school team. And academic kid is doing enrichment to get into advanced academics like TJ. Not where the wealthy discussion is coming from?
You should compare it between 2 same premise, not with basketball. 2 kids both love stem, one has advantages of all the support to gain the admission and one who doesn’t.
Academic enrichment is not wrong, you can continue to do so.
But TJ is no longer honor the admission on the test that can be prep.
And then I know you will ask, why basketball honor the prepping and not TJ.. they both the same interest base HS activities?
Well.. I don’t know.
Maybe one day if there is Thomas Jefferson School for Basketball Dribbling and Shooting … we will find the answer.
Anonymous wrote:Does TJ automatically accept the top 1.5% of each middle school? When you have many more than 1.5% taking the same classes and getting all A’s, what happens next?
The top 1.5% doesn't refer to GPA or courses taken.
All kids applying to TJ write a bunch of personal essays and a problem solving essay. The essays are graded, and the kids' scores are based on the essay scores, unweighted GPA, and experience factors (FARMS, IEP, ESOL). The unweighted GPA is not a huge factor, and they don't even look at courses taken or math level.
If a school has 600 8th graders, then it is guaranteed 1.5% of 600 = 9 TJ spots. The 9 kids with the highest scores are offered admissions.
But the highest scores are not the smartest or most prepared, due to the new system eliminating math level, objective testing, courses taken and teacher recommendations, correct?
That is correct. They may be the smartest. They may not be. The ranking is mostly based on the essays and experience factors.
+1
The idea was to get as close to a lottery as possible, which was the solution that the FCPS board tried to push the hardest.
Put a low threshold so that many would qualify and then try to keep the information available on the student to the minimum possible. Then, you get closer to the desired "should represent FCPS demographics". The main problem for FCPS board from achieving this is because of self selection bias and the pool of students who are applying do not represent FCPS demographics.
Just like most opportunists who took advantage of the riots in 2020 to pursue their own interests, FCPS board did the same.
Not really.. The idea was to address the rampant cheating that had tainted selection since many were buying early access to the entrance exam.
I am sorry your child did not get in. Please do not be bitter, as it would impact your child.
I understand your frustration and why you are agitated, but calm down for your kids sake.
There were test banks at certain prep schools with questions kids memorized and told the schools. The test banks gave the students at those schools an advantage. We have seen issues with the AMC tests along these lines as well. MathCounts reminds parents to not take pictures of questions and post them because there are kids in other sections taking the tests later. There is plenty of evidence of cheating/unfair advantages in higher level math competitions and tests.
as fictional as your stories are, can you dare to name one prep school that did this?
DP but wasn’t it Curie? They used to post the names of all their students who got accepted to TJ and it was close to if not over 100 students every year until the criteria changed.
It was one year. They did that one year and the parents were furious to see their kids names in the newspaper identified as having prepped since 3rd grade.
Some students admitted to [bold]memorizing[/bold] and providing questions back to Curie to include in the test bank. That was the year that the Quant test was dropped. The suspicion is that other programs were doing something similar but had not had the same level of success.
you have a cite for this?
There is no way to know if the students who were named had prepped since 3rd grade, the listing only included them in the specific program to prepare for the TJ test that year. There is speculation that many of the kids participated in enrichment programs for a long time. I could care less about that. My kid does math enichment because he enjoys it. Does it help him in school? Yes. Will it help him with whatever test TJ admission uses? Yes. There is no way to remove that element.
Creating a test bank of used questions is a step above enrichment. The test company was not doing its job in adjusting the test on an annual basis, which allowed the test bank to be more useful. There were posts that kids had studied the exact questions that were on the exam, that is a failure of the company. That said, kids were given a huge edge if they were willing to pay a good amount of money to participate in a specific program to gain an advantage.
The"good amount of money" in question is $300. That's what you pay for test prep above the enrichment.
This isn't the SAT or ACT or LSAT or GRE where there are test books available and prep classes are commonplace. It isn't even the tests used by private schools that have tutors and prep programs. It was a test for a specific high school that is supposed to serve all of the kids in the area, not just kids who have access to schools with test banks. You cannot replace the Quant with something used at school because the vast majority of the kids applying to TJ should be passing advanced on their math SOL. Requiring an advanced pass on the math SOL would not remove most of the kids and the scores on the math SOLs for the Honors math classes in MS tend to average high. They really won't help with discriminating between students.
The SHSAT exists and pro books exist for it. There were prep books for the TJ test and quant Q. The prep part of this is the easiest part. Use the PSAT of you want something ubiquitous. That's what they use now for froshmore admissions.
And even under that system there were parents complaining about who was accepted and chagrin that genius child from school X who participated in national competition y was not accepted. There is always going to be complaining about the admissions process. TJ is a public school that is meant to serve the population that is advanced and enjoys STEM. Your version of who should be accepted based on classes is simply different then what the administration thinks.
Any complaints can safely be ignored when the admission standards are objective and merit based.
The current method is subjective and has only a hint of merit.
DP. The "prep books for the quant Q" are laughable and are basically a scam. They are expensive and absolutely worthless, if you look at them instead of just tout their existence. The prep from they-who-shall-not-be-named was invaluable, the proof was on their website.
TJ test prep at cutie was a $300 module over a few weeks.
Many parents spent far more than a few hundred dollars for TJ test prep.
The TJ test prep module at Curie was $300. Curie is the test prep everyone seems to be offended by. It's a classroom setting not one on one tutoring.
No, we are talking about all of the great lengths that parents would go to in order to give their kids a leg up. Years of prep, moving to be in the "right" school zone, counselors to determine the best activities, etc. Wealthy parents have the knowledge and means to game the system and the admissions reflected that.
Wealthy parents don't send their kids to TJ. Wealthy parents in McLean send their kids to Potomac or Flint Hill for the less academically inclined kids.
There is a lot of wealth in this area. Wealthy families have options - some focus on private, others focus on TJ. Either way, they have the knowledge and means to give their kids a leg up in admissions.
1. Kids from wealthier families have many advantages over kids from lower-income families across the board when it comes to education. Family knowledge and support, tutoring, prep classes, special extracurricular activities, grades, test scores, etc.
2. Wealthier parents can and do pay for things to improve their kids’ chances.
3. Wealthier parents tend to understand the application process better - for both TJ and private school.
4. Kids from wealthier families have a higher chance of admission to TJ and private school.
5. Some middle schools have more kids from wealthier families than others.
6. Before the admissions change, there were many middle schools that had no representation at TJ. Those middle schools tended to have high FRE %s.
If wealth were the pathway to TJ then TJ would be majority white. Clearly there is something other than wealth at play.
Certainly. Yes, wealthy white families know that TJ will be a grind and decrease their kids’ chances at top colleges.
That’s why a lower % of eligible white kids apply and why many don’t attend even after being accepted.
The class of 2015 was majority white. They seemed interested in TJ before the Asian population around here. White kids haven't been staying away, they have been getting crowded out by a large influx of asian kids
Everybody knows TJ will be difficult. Everybody knows that going to TJ will probably not improve your college admissions results. But the reason some kids go anyway is because the training at TJ is better.
In any event, with a 17% acceptance rate among white kids, the notion that white kids don't want to go to TJ is silly. And considering the economic disparity between whites and asians, the notion that admissions is driven solely or even primarily by wealth is silly.
The last time we did the math, almost 100% of eligible Asian students applied to TJ and only about 50% of white students.
White students also turned down TJ at a high rate than Asian students.
I’ve shared the data in the past and can it out again if you want to revisit.
It’s not solely about wealth, but kids from affluent families definitely had a huge advantage over kids who aren’t.
Kids from affluent MSs had a higher chance of getting into the pool. And accepted.
I'm familiar with the data.
Yes, white students self select and Asians apply almost indiscriminately and yet Asians applying indiscriminately STILL have a higher acceptance rate. White kids don't stay away because they don't want TJ they stay away because they know their limits
Wealth always helps, even now. But the Stuyvesant' example shows us that it is not even close to being determinative. It also shows us that testing doesn't exclude poor kids.
Kids from Rocky Run tested into the pool just as frequently as kids from Carson. The Carson kids got in more frequently than the Rocky Run kids based on the holistic elements.
Carson and Rocky Run have similar % FRE (16%, 19%) and similar % admitted pool 50%, 51%).
Now compare to Cooper (4% FRE) with 64% admitted to pool.
Or Jackson (53% FRE) with 36% admitted to pool.
For class of 2024.
When you look across the MSs (and don’t just cherry pick) you can see that middle schools with more affluent families had higher % acceptance to the pool.
And?
Money helps in various ways for the TJ admissions process (even now). One way was testing into the pool.
Do you think advanced academic abilities, in general, is equally distributed across SES?
No. A lot of “advanced academic abilities” are developed c/o $$$$. Family knowledge and support, tutoring, prep classes, special extracurricular activities, etc.
This is 100% true, the same way that a lot of advanced athletic abilities are developed c/o $$$$. Family knowledge and support, private lessons, prep sessions, special extracurricular sports teams/travel sports, etc.
The athletes who have parents invest time and money into them are the ones who end up playing varsity sports, in college, and eventually in professional sports leagues. That is how sports work but…..none of that is possible without the players determination and dedication. Some players also are born with extreme natural athletic abilities, especially children of professional athletes or other high level athletes. They have inherited specific genes that allow them to be faster, more coordinated, etc.
I don’t understand why so many people on this forum make it seem like a “BAD” thing that some parents choose to spend money on increasing their children’s academic potential. Is it a bad thing to do what you can to help your children’s academic potential?
It isn’t only wealthy families that put effort into their children’s education. Parents can choose to raise their children so that they are focused on academics and reaching their potential. Most students spend hours a day on screens. TV, phones, gaming, watching YouTube. Parents are ultimately allowing this to happen. Instead of watching other people to their makeup or play video games, parents could choose to have their children watch educational videos. Instead of playing games parents could require their students to play educational games online, or study the materials they are learning in school. Everyone with an income has to decide how to spend their money. Some parents choose to focus all of their efforts on their children, other parents choose to buy an expensive iPhone.
Step aside a bit from your little bubble.
Most parents understand your theory, but they don’t have the previledge to sit the whole day redirecting what your kid doing or drive your kid anywhere to meaningful activities.
There is bills and rent to pay, food to put in the table. Some family only can make bare minimum with both parents working their butt off, some don’t need to do anything for the next few generations because of their wealth.
Generalization is not a good term.
Get out of the woke mindset, and ask your self: Why is it that these same families find time and financial resources to support athletics but not academics? Should their students be forced to pursue something they are not interested in?
Which families are you referring to?
Fictional families
Those wealthy family who support their athletics kids is not fighting the seat at TJ.
Of course, they are not interested in TJ. Instead they are focused on getting a spot on the public school sports team.
So completely irrelevant to this discussion…
It does actually if you can comprehend the context better.
Certain poster here keep picturing “Poe MS - example” kid who get into TJ as: wealthy family who doesn’t have interest in Stem, get in by the handout, doesn’t care about academic tutoring but they are willing to spent alot of their money on basketball things.
They mixed up two different type of family, unrelated, for a narrative.
So a Poe MS family who spends time and money on their student's sports interests is not wealthy? But if another Poe MS family spends resources on their student's academic interests is wealthy?
They are both can be wealthy or not wealthy.
The point is, the one invested in sports are not interested in TJ, they are somewhere else (not TJ) doing their own sports thing.
In this forum, they make narrative that the basketball kid rob the seat of the stem kid.
Rob, how? Basketball kid is doing prepping to get on school team. And academic kid is doing enrichment to get into advanced academics like TJ. Not where the wealthy discussion is coming from?
You should compare it between 2 same premise, not with basketball. 2 kids both love stem, one has advantages of all the support to gain the admission and one who doesn’t.
Academic enrichment is not wrong, you can continue to do so.
But TJ is no longer honor the admission on the test that can be prep.
And then I know you will ask, why basketball honor the prepping and not TJ.. they both the same interest base HS activities?
Well.. I don’t know.
Maybe one day if there is Thomas Jefferson School for Basketball Dribbling and Shooting … we will find the answer.
Premise is public school resource access whether it be school sports teams or advanced academic program like TJ. In both cases, families seek outside enrichment since public school education can't fully enable the learning of advanced students, whether it be an exceptional athlete or an exceptional academic pupil. Nobody cares and nobody should about how athletic or academic families chose to spend their money and they are not wealthy if they do and there is no gaming going on in either case. In both cases, student still has to put in the effort to internalize the skills and knowledge.
Anonymous wrote:Does TJ automatically accept the top 1.5% of each middle school? When you have many more than 1.5% taking the same classes and getting all A’s, what happens next?
The top 1.5% doesn't refer to GPA or courses taken.
All kids applying to TJ write a bunch of personal essays and a problem solving essay. The essays are graded, and the kids' scores are based on the essay scores, unweighted GPA, and experience factors (FARMS, IEP, ESOL). The unweighted GPA is not a huge factor, and they don't even look at courses taken or math level.
If a school has 600 8th graders, then it is guaranteed 1.5% of 600 = 9 TJ spots. The 9 kids with the highest scores are offered admissions.
But the highest scores are not the smartest or most prepared, due to the new system eliminating math level, objective testing, courses taken and teacher recommendations, correct?
That is correct. They may be the smartest. They may not be. The ranking is mostly based on the essays and experience factors.
+1
The idea was to get as close to a lottery as possible, which was the solution that the FCPS board tried to push the hardest.
Put a low threshold so that many would qualify and then try to keep the information available on the student to the minimum possible. Then, you get closer to the desired "should represent FCPS demographics". The main problem for FCPS board from achieving this is because of self selection bias and the pool of students who are applying do not represent FCPS demographics.
Just like most opportunists who took advantage of the riots in 2020 to pursue their own interests, FCPS board did the same.
Not really.. The idea was to address the rampant cheating that had tainted selection since many were buying early access to the entrance exam.
I am sorry your child did not get in. Please do not be bitter, as it would impact your child.
I understand your frustration and why you are agitated, but calm down for your kids sake.
There were test banks at certain prep schools with questions kids memorized and told the schools. The test banks gave the students at those schools an advantage. We have seen issues with the AMC tests along these lines as well. MathCounts reminds parents to not take pictures of questions and post them because there are kids in other sections taking the tests later. There is plenty of evidence of cheating/unfair advantages in higher level math competitions and tests.
as fictional as your stories are, can you dare to name one prep school that did this?
DP but wasn’t it Curie? They used to post the names of all their students who got accepted to TJ and it was close to if not over 100 students every year until the criteria changed.
It was one year. They did that one year and the parents were furious to see their kids names in the newspaper identified as having prepped since 3rd grade.
Some students admitted to [bold]memorizing[/bold] and providing questions back to Curie to include in the test bank. That was the year that the Quant test was dropped. The suspicion is that other programs were doing something similar but had not had the same level of success.
you have a cite for this?
There is no way to know if the students who were named had prepped since 3rd grade, the listing only included them in the specific program to prepare for the TJ test that year. There is speculation that many of the kids participated in enrichment programs for a long time. I could care less about that. My kid does math enichment because he enjoys it. Does it help him in school? Yes. Will it help him with whatever test TJ admission uses? Yes. There is no way to remove that element.
Creating a test bank of used questions is a step above enrichment. The test company was not doing its job in adjusting the test on an annual basis, which allowed the test bank to be more useful. There were posts that kids had studied the exact questions that were on the exam, that is a failure of the company. That said, kids were given a huge edge if they were willing to pay a good amount of money to participate in a specific program to gain an advantage.
The"good amount of money" in question is $300. That's what you pay for test prep above the enrichment.
This isn't the SAT or ACT or LSAT or GRE where there are test books available and prep classes are commonplace. It isn't even the tests used by private schools that have tutors and prep programs. It was a test for a specific high school that is supposed to serve all of the kids in the area, not just kids who have access to schools with test banks. You cannot replace the Quant with something used at school because the vast majority of the kids applying to TJ should be passing advanced on their math SOL. Requiring an advanced pass on the math SOL would not remove most of the kids and the scores on the math SOLs for the Honors math classes in MS tend to average high. They really won't help with discriminating between students.
The SHSAT exists and pro books exist for it. There were prep books for the TJ test and quant Q. The prep part of this is the easiest part. Use the PSAT of you want something ubiquitous. That's what they use now for froshmore admissions.
And even under that system there were parents complaining about who was accepted and chagrin that genius child from school X who participated in national competition y was not accepted. There is always going to be complaining about the admissions process. TJ is a public school that is meant to serve the population that is advanced and enjoys STEM. Your version of who should be accepted based on classes is simply different then what the administration thinks.
Any complaints can safely be ignored when the admission standards are objective and merit based.
The current method is subjective and has only a hint of merit.
DP. The "prep books for the quant Q" are laughable and are basically a scam. They are expensive and absolutely worthless, if you look at them instead of just tout their existence. The prep from they-who-shall-not-be-named was invaluable, the proof was on their website.
TJ test prep at cutie was a $300 module over a few weeks.
Many parents spent far more than a few hundred dollars for TJ test prep.
The TJ test prep module at Curie was $300. Curie is the test prep everyone seems to be offended by. It's a classroom setting not one on one tutoring.
No, we are talking about all of the great lengths that parents would go to in order to give their kids a leg up. Years of prep, moving to be in the "right" school zone, counselors to determine the best activities, etc. Wealthy parents have the knowledge and means to game the system and the admissions reflected that.
Wealthy parents don't send their kids to TJ. Wealthy parents in McLean send their kids to Potomac or Flint Hill for the less academically inclined kids.
There is a lot of wealth in this area. Wealthy families have options - some focus on private, others focus on TJ. Either way, they have the knowledge and means to give their kids a leg up in admissions.
1. Kids from wealthier families have many advantages over kids from lower-income families across the board when it comes to education. Family knowledge and support, tutoring, prep classes, special extracurricular activities, grades, test scores, etc.
2. Wealthier parents can and do pay for things to improve their kids’ chances.
3. Wealthier parents tend to understand the application process better - for both TJ and private school.
4. Kids from wealthier families have a higher chance of admission to TJ and private school.
5. Some middle schools have more kids from wealthier families than others.
6. Before the admissions change, there were many middle schools that had no representation at TJ. Those middle schools tended to have high FRE %s.
If wealth were the pathway to TJ then TJ would be majority white. Clearly there is something other than wealth at play.
Certainly. Yes, wealthy white families know that TJ will be a grind and decrease their kids’ chances at top colleges.
That’s why a lower % of eligible white kids apply and why many don’t attend even after being accepted.
The class of 2015 was majority white. They seemed interested in TJ before the Asian population around here. White kids haven't been staying away, they have been getting crowded out by a large influx of asian kids
Everybody knows TJ will be difficult. Everybody knows that going to TJ will probably not improve your college admissions results. But the reason some kids go anyway is because the training at TJ is better.
In any event, with a 17% acceptance rate among white kids, the notion that white kids don't want to go to TJ is silly. And considering the economic disparity between whites and asians, the notion that admissions is driven solely or even primarily by wealth is silly.
The last time we did the math, almost 100% of eligible Asian students applied to TJ and only about 50% of white students.
White students also turned down TJ at a high rate than Asian students.
I’ve shared the data in the past and can it out again if you want to revisit.
It’s not solely about wealth, but kids from affluent families definitely had a huge advantage over kids who aren’t.
Kids from affluent MSs had a higher chance of getting into the pool. And accepted.
I'm familiar with the data.
Yes, white students self select and Asians apply almost indiscriminately and yet Asians applying indiscriminately STILL have a higher acceptance rate. White kids don't stay away because they don't want TJ they stay away because they know their limits
Wealth always helps, even now. But the Stuyvesant' example shows us that it is not even close to being determinative. It also shows us that testing doesn't exclude poor kids.
Kids from Rocky Run tested into the pool just as frequently as kids from Carson. The Carson kids got in more frequently than the Rocky Run kids based on the holistic elements.
Carson and Rocky Run have similar % FRE (16%, 19%) and similar % admitted pool 50%, 51%).
Now compare to Cooper (4% FRE) with 64% admitted to pool.
Or Jackson (53% FRE) with 36% admitted to pool.
For class of 2024.
When you look across the MSs (and don’t just cherry pick) you can see that middle schools with more affluent families had higher % acceptance to the pool.
And?
Money helps in various ways for the TJ admissions process (even now). One way was testing into the pool.
Do you think advanced academic abilities, in general, is equally distributed across SES?
No. A lot of “advanced academic abilities” are developed c/o $$$$. Family knowledge and support, tutoring, prep classes, special extracurricular activities, etc.
This is 100% true, the same way that a lot of advanced athletic abilities are developed c/o $$$$. Family knowledge and support, private lessons, prep sessions, special extracurricular sports teams/travel sports, etc.
The athletes who have parents invest time and money into them are the ones who end up playing varsity sports, in college, and eventually in professional sports leagues. That is how sports work but…..none of that is possible without the players determination and dedication. Some players also are born with extreme natural athletic abilities, especially children of professional athletes or other high level athletes. They have inherited specific genes that allow them to be faster, more coordinated, etc.
I don’t understand why so many people on this forum make it seem like a “BAD” thing that some parents choose to spend money on increasing their children’s academic potential. Is it a bad thing to do what you can to help your children’s academic potential?
It isn’t only wealthy families that put effort into their children’s education. Parents can choose to raise their children so that they are focused on academics and reaching their potential. Most students spend hours a day on screens. TV, phones, gaming, watching YouTube. Parents are ultimately allowing this to happen. Instead of watching other people to their makeup or play video games, parents could choose to have their children watch educational videos. Instead of playing games parents could require their students to play educational games online, or study the materials they are learning in school. Everyone with an income has to decide how to spend their money. Some parents choose to focus all of their efforts on their children, other parents choose to buy an expensive iPhone.
Step aside a bit from your little bubble.
Most parents understand your theory, but they don’t have the previledge to sit the whole day redirecting what your kid doing or drive your kid anywhere to meaningful activities.
There is bills and rent to pay, food to put in the table. Some family only can make bare minimum with both parents working their butt off, some don’t need to do anything for the next few generations because of their wealth.
Generalization is not a good term.
Get out of the woke mindset, and ask your self: Why is it that these same families find time and financial resources to support athletics but not academics? Should their students be forced to pursue something they are not interested in?
Which families are you referring to?
Fictional families
Those wealthy family who support their athletics kids is not fighting the seat at TJ.
Of course, they are not interested in TJ. Instead they are focused on getting a spot on the public school sports team.
So completely irrelevant to this discussion…
It does actually if you can comprehend the context better.
Certain poster here keep picturing “Poe MS - example” kid who get into TJ as: wealthy family who doesn’t have interest in Stem, get in by the handout, doesn’t care about academic tutoring but they are willing to spent alot of their money on basketball things.
They mixed up two different type of family, unrelated, for a narrative.
So a Poe MS family who spends time and money on their student's sports interests is not wealthy? But if another Poe MS family spends resources on their student's academic interests is wealthy?
They are both can be wealthy or not wealthy.
The point is, the one invested in sports are not interested in TJ, they are somewhere else (not TJ) doing their own sports thing.
In this forum, they make narrative that the basketball kid rob the seat of the stem kid.
Rob, how? Basketball kid is doing prepping to get on school team. And academic kid is doing enrichment to get into advanced academics like TJ. Not where the wealthy discussion is coming from?
You should compare it between 2 same premise, not with basketball. 2 kids both love stem, one has advantages of all the support to gain the admission and one who doesn’t.
Academic enrichment is not wrong, you can continue to do so.
But TJ is no longer honor the admission on the test that can be prep.
And then I know you will ask, why basketball honor the prepping and not TJ.. they both the same interest base HS activities?
Well.. I don’t know.
Maybe one day if there is Thomas Jefferson School for Basketball Dribbling and Shooting … we will find the answer.
Premise is public school resource access whether it be school sports teams or advanced academic program like TJ. In both cases, families seek outside enrichment since public school education can't fully enable the learning of advanced students, whether it be an exceptional athlete or an exceptional academic pupil. Nobody cares and nobody should about how athletic or academic families chose to spend their money and they are not wealthy if they do and there is no gaming going on in either case. In both cases, student still has to put in the effort to internalize the skills and knowledge.
Except HS sports and TJ admissions aren’t really comparable.
There are a variety of ways for kids to participate in sports in HS, including no cut sports.
The parents who move to the right school zone, who tailor their kids activities, and who push tutoring/prep to increase their kids’ chances of admission to TJ are definitely gaming the system.
Wealthy families figured out what was required and made it happen. That’s why the % of kids from economically disadvantaged families was <1% before the change. Kids from low-income families (even Asian families) were almost entirely blocked out.
Anonymous wrote:Does TJ automatically accept the top 1.5% of each middle school? When you have many more than 1.5% taking the same classes and getting all A’s, what happens next?
The top 1.5% doesn't refer to GPA or courses taken.
All kids applying to TJ write a bunch of personal essays and a problem solving essay. The essays are graded, and the kids' scores are based on the essay scores, unweighted GPA, and experience factors (FARMS, IEP, ESOL). The unweighted GPA is not a huge factor, and they don't even look at courses taken or math level.
If a school has 600 8th graders, then it is guaranteed 1.5% of 600 = 9 TJ spots. The 9 kids with the highest scores are offered admissions.
But the highest scores are not the smartest or most prepared, due to the new system eliminating math level, objective testing, courses taken and teacher recommendations, correct?
That is correct. They may be the smartest. They may not be. The ranking is mostly based on the essays and experience factors.
+1
The idea was to get as close to a lottery as possible, which was the solution that the FCPS board tried to push the hardest.
Put a low threshold so that many would qualify and then try to keep the information available on the student to the minimum possible. Then, you get closer to the desired "should represent FCPS demographics". The main problem for FCPS board from achieving this is because of self selection bias and the pool of students who are applying do not represent FCPS demographics.
Just like most opportunists who took advantage of the riots in 2020 to pursue their own interests, FCPS board did the same.
Not really.. The idea was to address the rampant cheating that had tainted selection since many were buying early access to the entrance exam.
I am sorry your child did not get in. Please do not be bitter, as it would impact your child.
I understand your frustration and why you are agitated, but calm down for your kids sake.
There were test banks at certain prep schools with questions kids memorized and told the schools. The test banks gave the students at those schools an advantage. We have seen issues with the AMC tests along these lines as well. MathCounts reminds parents to not take pictures of questions and post them because there are kids in other sections taking the tests later. There is plenty of evidence of cheating/unfair advantages in higher level math competitions and tests.
as fictional as your stories are, can you dare to name one prep school that did this?
DP but wasn’t it Curie? They used to post the names of all their students who got accepted to TJ and it was close to if not over 100 students every year until the criteria changed.
It was one year. They did that one year and the parents were furious to see their kids names in the newspaper identified as having prepped since 3rd grade.
Some students admitted to [bold]memorizing[/bold] and providing questions back to Curie to include in the test bank. That was the year that the Quant test was dropped. The suspicion is that other programs were doing something similar but had not had the same level of success.
you have a cite for this?
There is no way to know if the students who were named had prepped since 3rd grade, the listing only included them in the specific program to prepare for the TJ test that year. There is speculation that many of the kids participated in enrichment programs for a long time. I could care less about that. My kid does math enichment because he enjoys it. Does it help him in school? Yes. Will it help him with whatever test TJ admission uses? Yes. There is no way to remove that element.
Creating a test bank of used questions is a step above enrichment. The test company was not doing its job in adjusting the test on an annual basis, which allowed the test bank to be more useful. There were posts that kids had studied the exact questions that were on the exam, that is a failure of the company. That said, kids were given a huge edge if they were willing to pay a good amount of money to participate in a specific program to gain an advantage.
The"good amount of money" in question is $300. That's what you pay for test prep above the enrichment.
This isn't the SAT or ACT or LSAT or GRE where there are test books available and prep classes are commonplace. It isn't even the tests used by private schools that have tutors and prep programs. It was a test for a specific high school that is supposed to serve all of the kids in the area, not just kids who have access to schools with test banks. You cannot replace the Quant with something used at school because the vast majority of the kids applying to TJ should be passing advanced on their math SOL. Requiring an advanced pass on the math SOL would not remove most of the kids and the scores on the math SOLs for the Honors math classes in MS tend to average high. They really won't help with discriminating between students.
The SHSAT exists and pro books exist for it. There were prep books for the TJ test and quant Q. The prep part of this is the easiest part. Use the PSAT of you want something ubiquitous. That's what they use now for froshmore admissions.
And even under that system there were parents complaining about who was accepted and chagrin that genius child from school X who participated in national competition y was not accepted. There is always going to be complaining about the admissions process. TJ is a public school that is meant to serve the population that is advanced and enjoys STEM. Your version of who should be accepted based on classes is simply different then what the administration thinks.
Any complaints can safely be ignored when the admission standards are objective and merit based.
The current method is subjective and has only a hint of merit.
DP. The "prep books for the quant Q" are laughable and are basically a scam. They are expensive and absolutely worthless, if you look at them instead of just tout their existence. The prep from they-who-shall-not-be-named was invaluable, the proof was on their website.
TJ test prep at cutie was a $300 module over a few weeks.
Many parents spent far more than a few hundred dollars for TJ test prep.
The TJ test prep module at Curie was $300. Curie is the test prep everyone seems to be offended by. It's a classroom setting not one on one tutoring.
No, we are talking about all of the great lengths that parents would go to in order to give their kids a leg up. Years of prep, moving to be in the "right" school zone, counselors to determine the best activities, etc. Wealthy parents have the knowledge and means to game the system and the admissions reflected that.
Wealthy parents don't send their kids to TJ. Wealthy parents in McLean send their kids to Potomac or Flint Hill for the less academically inclined kids.
There is a lot of wealth in this area. Wealthy families have options - some focus on private, others focus on TJ. Either way, they have the knowledge and means to give their kids a leg up in admissions.
1. Kids from wealthier families have many advantages over kids from lower-income families across the board when it comes to education. Family knowledge and support, tutoring, prep classes, special extracurricular activities, grades, test scores, etc.
2. Wealthier parents can and do pay for things to improve their kids’ chances.
3. Wealthier parents tend to understand the application process better - for both TJ and private school.
4. Kids from wealthier families have a higher chance of admission to TJ and private school.
5. Some middle schools have more kids from wealthier families than others.
6. Before the admissions change, there were many middle schools that had no representation at TJ. Those middle schools tended to have high FRE %s.
“Wealth” is a red herring. URMs can’t compete academically with regular non-wealthy non-URM kids. Without experience factors and no rich kids, the admissions would probably be the same as the previous system. The real problem is URM performance, not rich kids.
Stuyvesant' is almost 50% FARM and they are way more Asian than TJ .
Not really relevant here. There are a lot of differences between the student populations and the admissions processes.
The argument is that testing selects for wealth. Stuyvesant' admissions is based purely on testing.
Wealth might help with testing but it REALLY helps with the holistic stuff that you need for compelling essays.
No, isn’t just the testing. Kids from wealthier families have many advantages over kids from lower-income families across the board when it comes to education. Family knowledge and support, tutoring, prep classes, special extracurricular activities, grades, test scores, etc. Buying a home in the “right” school zones.
Wealthier parents can and do pay for things to improve their kids’ chances.
Once again Stuyvesant used a test and ONLY a test for admissions and half their students were on free and reduced lunch. The primary difference between Stuy and TJ was that TJ used holistic factors to pick kid out of a pool of high test scoring kids. If you look at the kids that make it out of the pool, a large part of the "rich school advantage" shows up during the "holistic phase" of the old admissions process.
Anonymous wrote:THE COURT RULED THERE IS NO DISCRIMINATION AGAINST ASIAN STUDENTS
https://www.ca4.uscourts.gov/opinions/221280.P.pdf
Pg 7
“we are satisfied that the challenged admissions policy does not disparately impact Asian American students”
THE DATA BACKS THIS UP:
There are MORE Asian students at TJ since the admissions change than almost any other year in the school’s history.
Asian students still make up the majority of students.
And Asian students are still accepted at a higher rate than almost all other groups, aside from Hispanic students (class of 25)
Asian 19%
Black 14%
Hispanic 21%
White 17%
Multiracial/Other* 13%
LOW-INCOME ASIAN STUDENTS BENEFITED THE MOST FROM CHANGES
https://www.ca4.uscourts.gov/opinions/221280.P.pdf
page 16
"Nevertheless, in the 2021 application cycle, Asian American students attending middle schools historically underrepresented at TJ saw a sixfold increase in offers, and the number of low-income Asian American admittees to TJ increased to 51 — from a mere one in 2020."
That opinion precedes SFFA and the denial of cert had a dissent.
Dissents from corrupt judges are worthless.
Alito is corrupt? How so?
GMAFB. Intellectually dishonest response.
So you got nothing?
I bet you thought ALL the conservative Justices were corrupt a year or two ago but now they are the only thing standing between trump and autocracy.
Corruption is not defined as having views and opinions that you disagree with.
You are claiming that Alito is not corrupt? For real?
Are his billionaire buddies paying for your comments?
Troll.
You still got nothing except the certitude that only evil corrupt people disagree with you.
Like I said, you were probably calling Roberts, Barrett, Gorsuch and Kavanaugh corrupt a year ago. And today they stopped Trump yet again.
You are continuing to be intellectually dishonest. That tracks.
I’ve only ever called the two corrupt justices “corrupt”. Though I have called Barrett and Kavanaugh “liars”.
Anonymous wrote:THE COURT RULED THERE IS NO DISCRIMINATION AGAINST ASIAN STUDENTS
https://www.ca4.uscourts.gov/opinions/221280.P.pdf
Pg 7
“we are satisfied that the challenged admissions policy does not disparately impact Asian American students”
THE DATA BACKS THIS UP:
There are MORE Asian students at TJ since the admissions change than almost any other year in the school’s history.
Asian students still make up the majority of students.
And Asian students are still accepted at a higher rate than almost all other groups, aside from Hispanic students (class of 25)
Asian 19%
Black 14%
Hispanic 21%
White 17%
Multiracial/Other* 13%
LOW-INCOME ASIAN STUDENTS BENEFITED THE MOST FROM CHANGES
https://www.ca4.uscourts.gov/opinions/221280.P.pdf
page 16
"Nevertheless, in the 2021 application cycle, Asian American students attending middle schools historically underrepresented at TJ saw a sixfold increase in offers, and the number of low-income Asian American admittees to TJ increased to 51 — from a mere one in 2020."
That opinion precedes SFFA and the denial of cert had a dissent.
Dissents from corrupt judges are worthless.
Alito is corrupt? How so?
GMAFB. Intellectually dishonest response.
So you got nothing?
I bet you thought ALL the conservative Justices were corrupt a year or two ago but now they are the only thing standing between trump and autocracy.
Corruption is not defined as having views and opinions that you disagree with.
You are claiming that Alito is not corrupt? For real?
Are his billionaire buddies paying for your comments?
Troll.
You still got nothing except the certitude that only evil corrupt people disagree with you.
Like I said, you were probably calling Roberts, Barrett, Gorsuch and Kavanaugh corrupt a year ago. And today they stopped Trump yet again.
You are continuing to be intellectually dishonest. That tracks.
I’ve only ever called the two corrupt justices “corrupt”. Though I have called Barrett and Kavanaugh “liars”.
Anonymous wrote:Does TJ automatically accept the top 1.5% of each middle school? When you have many more than 1.5% taking the same classes and getting all A’s, what happens next?
The top 1.5% doesn't refer to GPA or courses taken.
All kids applying to TJ write a bunch of personal essays and a problem solving essay. The essays are graded, and the kids' scores are based on the essay scores, unweighted GPA, and experience factors (FARMS, IEP, ESOL). The unweighted GPA is not a huge factor, and they don't even look at courses taken or math level.
If a school has 600 8th graders, then it is guaranteed 1.5% of 600 = 9 TJ spots. The 9 kids with the highest scores are offered admissions.
But the highest scores are not the smartest or most prepared, due to the new system eliminating math level, objective testing, courses taken and teacher recommendations, correct?
That is correct. They may be the smartest. They may not be. The ranking is mostly based on the essays and experience factors.
+1
The idea was to get as close to a lottery as possible, which was the solution that the FCPS board tried to push the hardest.
Put a low threshold so that many would qualify and then try to keep the information available on the student to the minimum possible. Then, you get closer to the desired "should represent FCPS demographics". The main problem for FCPS board from achieving this is because of self selection bias and the pool of students who are applying do not represent FCPS demographics.
Just like most opportunists who took advantage of the riots in 2020 to pursue their own interests, FCPS board did the same.
Not really.. The idea was to address the rampant cheating that had tainted selection since many were buying early access to the entrance exam.
I am sorry your child did not get in. Please do not be bitter, as it would impact your child.
I understand your frustration and why you are agitated, but calm down for your kids sake.
There were test banks at certain prep schools with questions kids memorized and told the schools. The test banks gave the students at those schools an advantage. We have seen issues with the AMC tests along these lines as well. MathCounts reminds parents to not take pictures of questions and post them because there are kids in other sections taking the tests later. There is plenty of evidence of cheating/unfair advantages in higher level math competitions and tests.
as fictional as your stories are, can you dare to name one prep school that did this?
DP but wasn’t it Curie? They used to post the names of all their students who got accepted to TJ and it was close to if not over 100 students every year until the criteria changed.
It was one year. They did that one year and the parents were furious to see their kids names in the newspaper identified as having prepped since 3rd grade.
Some students admitted to [bold]memorizing[/bold] and providing questions back to Curie to include in the test bank. That was the year that the Quant test was dropped. The suspicion is that other programs were doing something similar but had not had the same level of success.
you have a cite for this?
There is no way to know if the students who were named had prepped since 3rd grade, the listing only included them in the specific program to prepare for the TJ test that year. There is speculation that many of the kids participated in enrichment programs for a long time. I could care less about that. My kid does math enichment because he enjoys it. Does it help him in school? Yes. Will it help him with whatever test TJ admission uses? Yes. There is no way to remove that element.
Creating a test bank of used questions is a step above enrichment. The test company was not doing its job in adjusting the test on an annual basis, which allowed the test bank to be more useful. There were posts that kids had studied the exact questions that were on the exam, that is a failure of the company. That said, kids were given a huge edge if they were willing to pay a good amount of money to participate in a specific program to gain an advantage.
The"good amount of money" in question is $300. That's what you pay for test prep above the enrichment.
This isn't the SAT or ACT or LSAT or GRE where there are test books available and prep classes are commonplace. It isn't even the tests used by private schools that have tutors and prep programs. It was a test for a specific high school that is supposed to serve all of the kids in the area, not just kids who have access to schools with test banks. You cannot replace the Quant with something used at school because the vast majority of the kids applying to TJ should be passing advanced on their math SOL. Requiring an advanced pass on the math SOL would not remove most of the kids and the scores on the math SOLs for the Honors math classes in MS tend to average high. They really won't help with discriminating between students.
The SHSAT exists and pro books exist for it. There were prep books for the TJ test and quant Q. The prep part of this is the easiest part. Use the PSAT of you want something ubiquitous. That's what they use now for froshmore admissions.
And even under that system there were parents complaining about who was accepted and chagrin that genius child from school X who participated in national competition y was not accepted. There is always going to be complaining about the admissions process. TJ is a public school that is meant to serve the population that is advanced and enjoys STEM. Your version of who should be accepted based on classes is simply different then what the administration thinks.
Any complaints can safely be ignored when the admission standards are objective and merit based.
The current method is subjective and has only a hint of merit.
DP. The "prep books for the quant Q" are laughable and are basically a scam. They are expensive and absolutely worthless, if you look at them instead of just tout their existence. The prep from they-who-shall-not-be-named was invaluable, the proof was on their website.
TJ test prep at cutie was a $300 module over a few weeks.
Many parents spent far more than a few hundred dollars for TJ test prep.
The TJ test prep module at Curie was $300. Curie is the test prep everyone seems to be offended by. It's a classroom setting not one on one tutoring.
No, we are talking about all of the great lengths that parents would go to in order to give their kids a leg up. Years of prep, moving to be in the "right" school zone, counselors to determine the best activities, etc. Wealthy parents have the knowledge and means to game the system and the admissions reflected that.
Wealthy parents don't send their kids to TJ. Wealthy parents in McLean send their kids to Potomac or Flint Hill for the less academically inclined kids.
There is a lot of wealth in this area. Wealthy families have options - some focus on private, others focus on TJ. Either way, they have the knowledge and means to give their kids a leg up in admissions.
1. Kids from wealthier families have many advantages over kids from lower-income families across the board when it comes to education. Family knowledge and support, tutoring, prep classes, special extracurricular activities, grades, test scores, etc.
2. Wealthier parents can and do pay for things to improve their kids’ chances.
3. Wealthier parents tend to understand the application process better - for both TJ and private school.
4. Kids from wealthier families have a higher chance of admission to TJ and private school.
5. Some middle schools have more kids from wealthier families than others.
6. Before the admissions change, there were many middle schools that had no representation at TJ. Those middle schools tended to have high FRE %s.
“Wealth” is a red herring. URMs can’t compete academically with regular non-wealthy non-URM kids. Without experience factors and no rich kids, the admissions would probably be the same as the previous system. The real problem is URM performance, not rich kids.
Stuyvesant' is almost 50% FARM and they are way more Asian than TJ .
Not really relevant here. There are a lot of differences between the student populations and the admissions processes.
The argument is that testing selects for wealth. Stuyvesant' admissions is based purely on testing.
Wealth might help with testing but it REALLY helps with the holistic stuff that you need for compelling essays.
No, isn’t just the testing. Kids from wealthier families have many advantages over kids from lower-income families across the board when it comes to education. Family knowledge and support, tutoring, prep classes, special extracurricular activities, grades, test scores, etc. Buying a home in the “right” school zones.
Wealthier parents can and do pay for things to improve their kids’ chances.
Once again Stuyvesant used a test and ONLY a test for admissions and half their students were on free and reduced lunch. The primary difference between Stuy and TJ was that TJ used holistic factors to pick kid out of a pool of high test scoring kids. If you look at the kids that make it out of the pool, a large part of the "rich school advantage" shows up during the "holistic phase" of the old admissions process.
False. Wealth made a bigger impact on getting into the pool. We’ve gone through this already.
Sorry, it doesn’t fit your narrative, but TJ admissions aren’t comparable to Stuy.
<1 % kids from economically disadvantaged families for TJ class of 2024.
Anonymous wrote:Does TJ automatically accept the top 1.5% of each middle school? When you have many more than 1.5% taking the same classes and getting all A’s, what happens next?
The top 1.5% doesn't refer to GPA or courses taken.
All kids applying to TJ write a bunch of personal essays and a problem solving essay. The essays are graded, and the kids' scores are based on the essay scores, unweighted GPA, and experience factors (FARMS, IEP, ESOL). The unweighted GPA is not a huge factor, and they don't even look at courses taken or math level.
If a school has 600 8th graders, then it is guaranteed 1.5% of 600 = 9 TJ spots. The 9 kids with the highest scores are offered admissions.
But the highest scores are not the smartest or most prepared, due to the new system eliminating math level, objective testing, courses taken and teacher recommendations, correct?
That is correct. They may be the smartest. They may not be. The ranking is mostly based on the essays and experience factors.
+1
The idea was to get as close to a lottery as possible, which was the solution that the FCPS board tried to push the hardest.
Put a low threshold so that many would qualify and then try to keep the information available on the student to the minimum possible. Then, you get closer to the desired "should represent FCPS demographics". The main problem for FCPS board from achieving this is because of self selection bias and the pool of students who are applying do not represent FCPS demographics.
Just like most opportunists who took advantage of the riots in 2020 to pursue their own interests, FCPS board did the same.
Not really.. The idea was to address the rampant cheating that had tainted selection since many were buying early access to the entrance exam.
I am sorry your child did not get in. Please do not be bitter, as it would impact your child.
I understand your frustration and why you are agitated, but calm down for your kids sake.
There were test banks at certain prep schools with questions kids memorized and told the schools. The test banks gave the students at those schools an advantage. We have seen issues with the AMC tests along these lines as well. MathCounts reminds parents to not take pictures of questions and post them because there are kids in other sections taking the tests later. There is plenty of evidence of cheating/unfair advantages in higher level math competitions and tests.
as fictional as your stories are, can you dare to name one prep school that did this?
DP but wasn’t it Curie? They used to post the names of all their students who got accepted to TJ and it was close to if not over 100 students every year until the criteria changed.
It was one year. They did that one year and the parents were furious to see their kids names in the newspaper identified as having prepped since 3rd grade.
Some students admitted to [bold]memorizing[/bold] and providing questions back to Curie to include in the test bank. That was the year that the Quant test was dropped. The suspicion is that other programs were doing something similar but had not had the same level of success.
you have a cite for this?
There is no way to know if the students who were named had prepped since 3rd grade, the listing only included them in the specific program to prepare for the TJ test that year. There is speculation that many of the kids participated in enrichment programs for a long time. I could care less about that. My kid does math enichment because he enjoys it. Does it help him in school? Yes. Will it help him with whatever test TJ admission uses? Yes. There is no way to remove that element.
Creating a test bank of used questions is a step above enrichment. The test company was not doing its job in adjusting the test on an annual basis, which allowed the test bank to be more useful. There were posts that kids had studied the exact questions that were on the exam, that is a failure of the company. That said, kids were given a huge edge if they were willing to pay a good amount of money to participate in a specific program to gain an advantage.
The"good amount of money" in question is $300. That's what you pay for test prep above the enrichment.
This isn't the SAT or ACT or LSAT or GRE where there are test books available and prep classes are commonplace. It isn't even the tests used by private schools that have tutors and prep programs. It was a test for a specific high school that is supposed to serve all of the kids in the area, not just kids who have access to schools with test banks. You cannot replace the Quant with something used at school because the vast majority of the kids applying to TJ should be passing advanced on their math SOL. Requiring an advanced pass on the math SOL would not remove most of the kids and the scores on the math SOLs for the Honors math classes in MS tend to average high. They really won't help with discriminating between students.
The SHSAT exists and pro books exist for it. There were prep books for the TJ test and quant Q. The prep part of this is the easiest part. Use the PSAT of you want something ubiquitous. That's what they use now for froshmore admissions.
And even under that system there were parents complaining about who was accepted and chagrin that genius child from school X who participated in national competition y was not accepted. There is always going to be complaining about the admissions process. TJ is a public school that is meant to serve the population that is advanced and enjoys STEM. Your version of who should be accepted based on classes is simply different then what the administration thinks.
Any complaints can safely be ignored when the admission standards are objective and merit based.
The current method is subjective and has only a hint of merit.
DP. The "prep books for the quant Q" are laughable and are basically a scam. They are expensive and absolutely worthless, if you look at them instead of just tout their existence. The prep from they-who-shall-not-be-named was invaluable, the proof was on their website.
TJ test prep at cutie was a $300 module over a few weeks.
Many parents spent far more than a few hundred dollars for TJ test prep.
The TJ test prep module at Curie was $300. Curie is the test prep everyone seems to be offended by. It's a classroom setting not one on one tutoring.
No, we are talking about all of the great lengths that parents would go to in order to give their kids a leg up. Years of prep, moving to be in the "right" school zone, counselors to determine the best activities, etc. Wealthy parents have the knowledge and means to game the system and the admissions reflected that.
Wealthy parents don't send their kids to TJ. Wealthy parents in McLean send their kids to Potomac or Flint Hill for the less academically inclined kids.
There is a lot of wealth in this area. Wealthy families have options - some focus on private, others focus on TJ. Either way, they have the knowledge and means to give their kids a leg up in admissions.
1. Kids from wealthier families have many advantages over kids from lower-income families across the board when it comes to education. Family knowledge and support, tutoring, prep classes, special extracurricular activities, grades, test scores, etc.
2. Wealthier parents can and do pay for things to improve their kids’ chances.
3. Wealthier parents tend to understand the application process better - for both TJ and private school.
4. Kids from wealthier families have a higher chance of admission to TJ and private school.
5. Some middle schools have more kids from wealthier families than others.
6. Before the admissions change, there were many middle schools that had no representation at TJ. Those middle schools tended to have high FRE %s.
“Wealth” is a red herring. URMs can’t compete academically with regular non-wealthy non-URM kids. Without experience factors and no rich kids, the admissions would probably be the same as the previous system. The real problem is URM performance, not rich kids.
Stuyvesant' is almost 50% FARM and they are way more Asian than TJ .
Not really relevant here. There are a lot of differences between the student populations and the admissions processes.
The argument is that testing selects for wealth. Stuyvesant' admissions is based purely on testing.
Wealth might help with testing but it REALLY helps with the holistic stuff that you need for compelling essays.
No, isn’t just the testing. Kids from wealthier families have many advantages over kids from lower-income families across the board when it comes to education. Family knowledge and support, tutoring, prep classes, special extracurricular activities, grades, test scores, etc. Buying a home in the “right” school zones.
Wealthier parents can and do pay for things to improve their kids’ chances.
Once again Stuyvesant used a test and ONLY a test for admissions and half their students were on free and reduced lunch. The primary difference between Stuy and TJ was that TJ used holistic factors to pick kid out of a pool of high test scoring kids. If you look at the kids that make it out of the pool, a large part of the "rich school advantage" shows up during the "holistic phase" of the old admissions process.
False. Wealth made a bigger impact on getting into the pool. We’ve gone through this already.
Sorry, it doesn’t fit your narrative, but TJ admissions aren’t comparable to Stuy.
<1 % kids from economically disadvantaged families for TJ class of 2024.
Try reading my claim again.
I didn't claim that poor kids got into pool at higher rates than rich kids. I said [b]a large part of the "rich school advantage" shows up during the holistic phase" of the old admissions process.
Notice how the percentage of of pool is higher at rich schools likeLongfellow Cooper Carson and Kilmer is higher than at middle class neighborhoods like Frost and Rocky Run which is even higher than the percentage of of pool at places like Twain.
No analogy is perfect but to say that TJ admissions are not comparable to Stuyvesant admissions is pretty silly. There are lessons we can draw from Stuy admissions. Among them are that holistic admissions increases wealth disparity.
Anonymous wrote:Does TJ automatically accept the top 1.5% of each middle school? When you have many more than 1.5% taking the same classes and getting all A’s, what happens next?
The top 1.5% doesn't refer to GPA or courses taken.
All kids applying to TJ write a bunch of personal essays and a problem solving essay. The essays are graded, and the kids' scores are based on the essay scores, unweighted GPA, and experience factors (FARMS, IEP, ESOL). The unweighted GPA is not a huge factor, and they don't even look at courses taken or math level.
If a school has 600 8th graders, then it is guaranteed 1.5% of 600 = 9 TJ spots. The 9 kids with the highest scores are offered admissions.
But the highest scores are not the smartest or most prepared, due to the new system eliminating math level, objective testing, courses taken and teacher recommendations, correct?
That is correct. They may be the smartest. They may not be. The ranking is mostly based on the essays and experience factors.
+1
The idea was to get as close to a lottery as possible, which was the solution that the FCPS board tried to push the hardest.
Put a low threshold so that many would qualify and then try to keep the information available on the student to the minimum possible. Then, you get closer to the desired "should represent FCPS demographics". The main problem for FCPS board from achieving this is because of self selection bias and the pool of students who are applying do not represent FCPS demographics.
Just like most opportunists who took advantage of the riots in 2020 to pursue their own interests, FCPS board did the same.
Not really.. The idea was to address the rampant cheating that had tainted selection since many were buying early access to the entrance exam.
I am sorry your child did not get in. Please do not be bitter, as it would impact your child.
I understand your frustration and why you are agitated, but calm down for your kids sake.
There were test banks at certain prep schools with questions kids memorized and told the schools. The test banks gave the students at those schools an advantage. We have seen issues with the AMC tests along these lines as well. MathCounts reminds parents to not take pictures of questions and post them because there are kids in other sections taking the tests later. There is plenty of evidence of cheating/unfair advantages in higher level math competitions and tests.
as fictional as your stories are, can you dare to name one prep school that did this?
DP but wasn’t it Curie? They used to post the names of all their students who got accepted to TJ and it was close to if not over 100 students every year until the criteria changed.
It was one year. They did that one year and the parents were furious to see their kids names in the newspaper identified as having prepped since 3rd grade.
Some students admitted to [bold]memorizing[/bold] and providing questions back to Curie to include in the test bank. That was the year that the Quant test was dropped. The suspicion is that other programs were doing something similar but had not had the same level of success.
you have a cite for this?
There is no way to know if the students who were named had prepped since 3rd grade, the listing only included them in the specific program to prepare for the TJ test that year. There is speculation that many of the kids participated in enrichment programs for a long time. I could care less about that. My kid does math enichment because he enjoys it. Does it help him in school? Yes. Will it help him with whatever test TJ admission uses? Yes. There is no way to remove that element.
Creating a test bank of used questions is a step above enrichment. The test company was not doing its job in adjusting the test on an annual basis, which allowed the test bank to be more useful. There were posts that kids had studied the exact questions that were on the exam, that is a failure of the company. That said, kids were given a huge edge if they were willing to pay a good amount of money to participate in a specific program to gain an advantage.
The"good amount of money" in question is $300. That's what you pay for test prep above the enrichment.
This isn't the SAT or ACT or LSAT or GRE where there are test books available and prep classes are commonplace. It isn't even the tests used by private schools that have tutors and prep programs. It was a test for a specific high school that is supposed to serve all of the kids in the area, not just kids who have access to schools with test banks. You cannot replace the Quant with something used at school because the vast majority of the kids applying to TJ should be passing advanced on their math SOL. Requiring an advanced pass on the math SOL would not remove most of the kids and the scores on the math SOLs for the Honors math classes in MS tend to average high. They really won't help with discriminating between students.
The SHSAT exists and pro books exist for it. There were prep books for the TJ test and quant Q. The prep part of this is the easiest part. Use the PSAT of you want something ubiquitous. That's what they use now for froshmore admissions.
And even under that system there were parents complaining about who was accepted and chagrin that genius child from school X who participated in national competition y was not accepted. There is always going to be complaining about the admissions process. TJ is a public school that is meant to serve the population that is advanced and enjoys STEM. Your version of who should be accepted based on classes is simply different then what the administration thinks.
Any complaints can safely be ignored when the admission standards are objective and merit based.
The current method is subjective and has only a hint of merit.
DP. The "prep books for the quant Q" are laughable and are basically a scam. They are expensive and absolutely worthless, if you look at them instead of just tout their existence. The prep from they-who-shall-not-be-named was invaluable, the proof was on their website.
TJ test prep at cutie was a $300 module over a few weeks.
Many parents spent far more than a few hundred dollars for TJ test prep.
The TJ test prep module at Curie was $300. Curie is the test prep everyone seems to be offended by. It's a classroom setting not one on one tutoring.
No, we are talking about all of the great lengths that parents would go to in order to give their kids a leg up. Years of prep, moving to be in the "right" school zone, counselors to determine the best activities, etc. Wealthy parents have the knowledge and means to game the system and the admissions reflected that.
Wealthy parents don't send their kids to TJ. Wealthy parents in McLean send their kids to Potomac or Flint Hill for the less academically inclined kids.
There is a lot of wealth in this area. Wealthy families have options - some focus on private, others focus on TJ. Either way, they have the knowledge and means to give their kids a leg up in admissions.
1. Kids from wealthier families have many advantages over kids from lower-income families across the board when it comes to education. Family knowledge and support, tutoring, prep classes, special extracurricular activities, grades, test scores, etc.
2. Wealthier parents can and do pay for things to improve their kids’ chances.
3. Wealthier parents tend to understand the application process better - for both TJ and private school.
4. Kids from wealthier families have a higher chance of admission to TJ and private school.
5. Some middle schools have more kids from wealthier families than others.
6. Before the admissions change, there were many middle schools that had no representation at TJ. Those middle schools tended to have high FRE %s.
“Wealth” is a red herring. URMs can’t compete academically with regular non-wealthy non-URM kids. Without experience factors and no rich kids, the admissions would probably be the same as the previous system. The real problem is URM performance, not rich kids.
Stuyvesant' is almost 50% FARM and they are way more Asian than TJ .
Not really relevant here. There are a lot of differences between the student populations and the admissions processes.
The argument is that testing selects for wealth. Stuyvesant' admissions is based purely on testing.
Wealth might help with testing but it REALLY helps with the holistic stuff that you need for compelling essays.
No, isn’t just the testing. Kids from wealthier families have many advantages over kids from lower-income families across the board when it comes to education. Family knowledge and support, tutoring, prep classes, special extracurricular activities, grades, test scores, etc. Buying a home in the “right” school zones.
Wealthier parents can and do pay for things to improve their kids’ chances.
Once again Stuyvesant used a test and ONLY a test for admissions and half their students were on free and reduced lunch. The primary difference between Stuy and TJ was that TJ used holistic factors to pick kid out of a pool of high test scoring kids. If you look at the kids that make it out of the pool, a large part of the "rich school advantage" shows up during the "holistic phase" of the old admissions process.
False. Wealth made a bigger impact on getting into the pool. We’ve gone through this already.
Sorry, it doesn’t fit your narrative, but TJ admissions aren’t comparable to Stuy.
<1 % kids from economically disadvantaged families for TJ class of 2024.
Try reading my claim again.
I didn't claim that poor kids got into pool at higher rates than rich kids. I said [b]a large part of the "rich school advantage" shows up during the holistic phase" of the old admissions process.
Notice how the percentage of of pool is higher at rich schools likeLongfellow Cooper Carson and Kilmer is higher than at middle class neighborhoods like Frost and Rocky Run which is even higher than the percentage of of pool at places like Twain.
No analogy is perfect but to say that TJ admissions are not comparable to Stuyvesant admissions is pretty silly. There are lessons we can draw from Stuy admissions. Among them are that holistic admissions increases wealth disparity.
The larger part of "rich school advantage" shows up as just getting into the pool in the first place. The holistic portion is pretty flat across FRE.
The prior TJ admissions process, including the testing portion to get into the pool, was easily gamed by wealthy families.
Anonymous wrote:Does TJ automatically accept the top 1.5% of each middle school? When you have many more than 1.5% taking the same classes and getting all A’s, what happens next?
The top 1.5% doesn't refer to GPA or courses taken.
All kids applying to TJ write a bunch of personal essays and a problem solving essay. The essays are graded, and the kids' scores are based on the essay scores, unweighted GPA, and experience factors (FARMS, IEP, ESOL). The unweighted GPA is not a huge factor, and they don't even look at courses taken or math level.
If a school has 600 8th graders, then it is guaranteed 1.5% of 600 = 9 TJ spots. The 9 kids with the highest scores are offered admissions.
But the highest scores are not the smartest or most prepared, due to the new system eliminating math level, objective testing, courses taken and teacher recommendations, correct?
That is correct. They may be the smartest. They may not be. The ranking is mostly based on the essays and experience factors.
+1
The idea was to get as close to a lottery as possible, which was the solution that the FCPS board tried to push the hardest.
Put a low threshold so that many would qualify and then try to keep the information available on the student to the minimum possible. Then, you get closer to the desired "should represent FCPS demographics". The main problem for FCPS board from achieving this is because of self selection bias and the pool of students who are applying do not represent FCPS demographics.
Just like most opportunists who took advantage of the riots in 2020 to pursue their own interests, FCPS board did the same.
Not really.. The idea was to address the rampant cheating that had tainted selection since many were buying early access to the entrance exam.
I am sorry your child did not get in. Please do not be bitter, as it would impact your child.
I understand your frustration and why you are agitated, but calm down for your kids sake.
There were test banks at certain prep schools with questions kids memorized and told the schools. The test banks gave the students at those schools an advantage. We have seen issues with the AMC tests along these lines as well. MathCounts reminds parents to not take pictures of questions and post them because there are kids in other sections taking the tests later. There is plenty of evidence of cheating/unfair advantages in higher level math competitions and tests.
as fictional as your stories are, can you dare to name one prep school that did this?
DP but wasn’t it Curie? They used to post the names of all their students who got accepted to TJ and it was close to if not over 100 students every year until the criteria changed.
It was one year. They did that one year and the parents were furious to see their kids names in the newspaper identified as having prepped since 3rd grade.
Some students admitted to [bold]memorizing[/bold] and providing questions back to Curie to include in the test bank. That was the year that the Quant test was dropped. The suspicion is that other programs were doing something similar but had not had the same level of success.
you have a cite for this?
There is no way to know if the students who were named had prepped since 3rd grade, the listing only included them in the specific program to prepare for the TJ test that year. There is speculation that many of the kids participated in enrichment programs for a long time. I could care less about that. My kid does math enichment because he enjoys it. Does it help him in school? Yes. Will it help him with whatever test TJ admission uses? Yes. There is no way to remove that element.
Creating a test bank of used questions is a step above enrichment. The test company was not doing its job in adjusting the test on an annual basis, which allowed the test bank to be more useful. There were posts that kids had studied the exact questions that were on the exam, that is a failure of the company. That said, kids were given a huge edge if they were willing to pay a good amount of money to participate in a specific program to gain an advantage.
The"good amount of money" in question is $300. That's what you pay for test prep above the enrichment.
This isn't the SAT or ACT or LSAT or GRE where there are test books available and prep classes are commonplace. It isn't even the tests used by private schools that have tutors and prep programs. It was a test for a specific high school that is supposed to serve all of the kids in the area, not just kids who have access to schools with test banks. You cannot replace the Quant with something used at school because the vast majority of the kids applying to TJ should be passing advanced on their math SOL. Requiring an advanced pass on the math SOL would not remove most of the kids and the scores on the math SOLs for the Honors math classes in MS tend to average high. They really won't help with discriminating between students.
The SHSAT exists and pro books exist for it. There were prep books for the TJ test and quant Q. The prep part of this is the easiest part. Use the PSAT of you want something ubiquitous. That's what they use now for froshmore admissions.
And even under that system there were parents complaining about who was accepted and chagrin that genius child from school X who participated in national competition y was not accepted. There is always going to be complaining about the admissions process. TJ is a public school that is meant to serve the population that is advanced and enjoys STEM. Your version of who should be accepted based on classes is simply different then what the administration thinks.
Any complaints can safely be ignored when the admission standards are objective and merit based.
The current method is subjective and has only a hint of merit.
DP. The "prep books for the quant Q" are laughable and are basically a scam. They are expensive and absolutely worthless, if you look at them instead of just tout their existence. The prep from they-who-shall-not-be-named was invaluable, the proof was on their website.
TJ test prep at cutie was a $300 module over a few weeks.
Many parents spent far more than a few hundred dollars for TJ test prep.
The TJ test prep module at Curie was $300. Curie is the test prep everyone seems to be offended by. It's a classroom setting not one on one tutoring.
No, we are talking about all of the great lengths that parents would go to in order to give their kids a leg up. Years of prep, moving to be in the "right" school zone, counselors to determine the best activities, etc. Wealthy parents have the knowledge and means to game the system and the admissions reflected that.
Wealthy parents don't send their kids to TJ. Wealthy parents in McLean send their kids to Potomac or Flint Hill for the less academically inclined kids.
There is a lot of wealth in this area. Wealthy families have options - some focus on private, others focus on TJ. Either way, they have the knowledge and means to give their kids a leg up in admissions.
1. Kids from wealthier families have many advantages over kids from lower-income families across the board when it comes to education. Family knowledge and support, tutoring, prep classes, special extracurricular activities, grades, test scores, etc.
2. Wealthier parents can and do pay for things to improve their kids’ chances.
3. Wealthier parents tend to understand the application process better - for both TJ and private school.
4. Kids from wealthier families have a higher chance of admission to TJ and private school.
5. Some middle schools have more kids from wealthier families than others.
6. Before the admissions change, there were many middle schools that had no representation at TJ. Those middle schools tended to have high FRE %s.
“Wealth” is a red herring. URMs can’t compete academically with regular non-wealthy non-URM kids. Without experience factors and no rich kids, the admissions would probably be the same as the previous system. The real problem is URM performance, not rich kids.
Stuyvesant' is almost 50% FARM and they are way more Asian than TJ .
Not really relevant here. There are a lot of differences between the student populations and the admissions processes.
The argument is that testing selects for wealth. Stuyvesant' admissions is based purely on testing.
Wealth might help with testing but it REALLY helps with the holistic stuff that you need for compelling essays.
No, isn’t just the testing. Kids from wealthier families have many advantages over kids from lower-income families across the board when it comes to education. Family knowledge and support, tutoring, prep classes, special extracurricular activities, grades, test scores, etc. Buying a home in the “right” school zones.
Wealthier parents can and do pay for things to improve their kids’ chances.
Once again Stuyvesant used a test and ONLY a test for admissions and half their students were on free and reduced lunch. The primary difference between Stuy and TJ was that TJ used holistic factors to pick kid out of a pool of high test scoring kids. If you look at the kids that make it out of the pool, a large part of the "rich school advantage" shows up during the "holistic phase" of the old admissions process.
The pool of kids applying for Stuyvesant is very different then the pool in our area. Wealthy families living in NYC send their kids to private school. Many Wealthy and Upper Middle-Class families live in suburbs where they could not apply for Stuyvesant. You have a much larger population of kids in NYC and a good percentage of the NYC school kids are going to be low income to poor. Asian families are more likely to have invested in academic enrichment then White, Black, or Hispanic families. That leads to a lower-income Asian population as the majority at Stuy.
TJ is located in a portion of Virginia where the top private school options are long commutes. The school has a strong enough reputation that parents are happy to have their kids attend there. The Upper Middle Class in our area is well off but not as easily in place to pay the $50,000-$60,000 a year tuition to the private schools. The lcoal public schools in Mclean are strong so families are willing to send their kids to the public school. The Asian families also send their kids for academic enrichment, but it probably looks different because they can afford more expensive programs. and there is desire to send their kid to the top school. In this case, TJ. That leads to a wealthier student attending TJ. People have noted that the largest percentage increase in TJs population with the new admission policy has been Asian students on FARMS, which is the same profile as the Stuy students.
Anonymous wrote:Does TJ automatically accept the top 1.5% of each middle school? When you have many more than 1.5% taking the same classes and getting all A’s, what happens next?
The top 1.5% doesn't refer to GPA or courses taken.
All kids applying to TJ write a bunch of personal essays and a problem solving essay. The essays are graded, and the kids' scores are based on the essay scores, unweighted GPA, and experience factors (FARMS, IEP, ESOL). The unweighted GPA is not a huge factor, and they don't even look at courses taken or math level.
If a school has 600 8th graders, then it is guaranteed 1.5% of 600 = 9 TJ spots. The 9 kids with the highest scores are offered admissions.
But the highest scores are not the smartest or most prepared, due to the new system eliminating math level, objective testing, courses taken and teacher recommendations, correct?
That is correct. They may be the smartest. They may not be. The ranking is mostly based on the essays and experience factors.
+1
The idea was to get as close to a lottery as possible, which was the solution that the FCPS board tried to push the hardest.
Put a low threshold so that many would qualify and then try to keep the information available on the student to the minimum possible. Then, you get closer to the desired "should represent FCPS demographics". The main problem for FCPS board from achieving this is because of self selection bias and the pool of students who are applying do not represent FCPS demographics.
Just like most opportunists who took advantage of the riots in 2020 to pursue their own interests, FCPS board did the same.
Not really.. The idea was to address the rampant cheating that had tainted selection since many were buying early access to the entrance exam.
I am sorry your child did not get in. Please do not be bitter, as it would impact your child.
I understand your frustration and why you are agitated, but calm down for your kids sake.
There were test banks at certain prep schools with questions kids memorized and told the schools. The test banks gave the students at those schools an advantage. We have seen issues with the AMC tests along these lines as well. MathCounts reminds parents to not take pictures of questions and post them because there are kids in other sections taking the tests later. There is plenty of evidence of cheating/unfair advantages in higher level math competitions and tests.
as fictional as your stories are, can you dare to name one prep school that did this?
DP but wasn’t it Curie? They used to post the names of all their students who got accepted to TJ and it was close to if not over 100 students every year until the criteria changed.
It was one year. They did that one year and the parents were furious to see their kids names in the newspaper identified as having prepped since 3rd grade.
Some students admitted to [bold]memorizing[/bold] and providing questions back to Curie to include in the test bank. That was the year that the Quant test was dropped. The suspicion is that other programs were doing something similar but had not had the same level of success.
you have a cite for this?
There is no way to know if the students who were named had prepped since 3rd grade, the listing only included them in the specific program to prepare for the TJ test that year. There is speculation that many of the kids participated in enrichment programs for a long time. I could care less about that. My kid does math enichment because he enjoys it. Does it help him in school? Yes. Will it help him with whatever test TJ admission uses? Yes. There is no way to remove that element.
Creating a test bank of used questions is a step above enrichment. The test company was not doing its job in adjusting the test on an annual basis, which allowed the test bank to be more useful. There were posts that kids had studied the exact questions that were on the exam, that is a failure of the company. That said, kids were given a huge edge if they were willing to pay a good amount of money to participate in a specific program to gain an advantage.
The"good amount of money" in question is $300. That's what you pay for test prep above the enrichment.
This isn't the SAT or ACT or LSAT or GRE where there are test books available and prep classes are commonplace. It isn't even the tests used by private schools that have tutors and prep programs. It was a test for a specific high school that is supposed to serve all of the kids in the area, not just kids who have access to schools with test banks. You cannot replace the Quant with something used at school because the vast majority of the kids applying to TJ should be passing advanced on their math SOL. Requiring an advanced pass on the math SOL would not remove most of the kids and the scores on the math SOLs for the Honors math classes in MS tend to average high. They really won't help with discriminating between students.
The SHSAT exists and pro books exist for it. There were prep books for the TJ test and quant Q. The prep part of this is the easiest part. Use the PSAT of you want something ubiquitous. That's what they use now for froshmore admissions.
And even under that system there were parents complaining about who was accepted and chagrin that genius child from school X who participated in national competition y was not accepted. There is always going to be complaining about the admissions process. TJ is a public school that is meant to serve the population that is advanced and enjoys STEM. Your version of who should be accepted based on classes is simply different then what the administration thinks.
Any complaints can safely be ignored when the admission standards are objective and merit based.
The current method is subjective and has only a hint of merit.
DP. The "prep books for the quant Q" are laughable and are basically a scam. They are expensive and absolutely worthless, if you look at them instead of just tout their existence. The prep from they-who-shall-not-be-named was invaluable, the proof was on their website.
TJ test prep at cutie was a $300 module over a few weeks.
Many parents spent far more than a few hundred dollars for TJ test prep.
The TJ test prep module at Curie was $300. Curie is the test prep everyone seems to be offended by. It's a classroom setting not one on one tutoring.
No, we are talking about all of the great lengths that parents would go to in order to give their kids a leg up. Years of prep, moving to be in the "right" school zone, counselors to determine the best activities, etc. Wealthy parents have the knowledge and means to game the system and the admissions reflected that.
Wealthy parents don't send their kids to TJ. Wealthy parents in McLean send their kids to Potomac or Flint Hill for the less academically inclined kids.
There is a lot of wealth in this area. Wealthy families have options - some focus on private, others focus on TJ. Either way, they have the knowledge and means to give their kids a leg up in admissions.
1. Kids from wealthier families have many advantages over kids from lower-income families across the board when it comes to education. Family knowledge and support, tutoring, prep classes, special extracurricular activities, grades, test scores, etc.
2. Wealthier parents can and do pay for things to improve their kids’ chances.
3. Wealthier parents tend to understand the application process better - for both TJ and private school.
4. Kids from wealthier families have a higher chance of admission to TJ and private school.
5. Some middle schools have more kids from wealthier families than others.
6. Before the admissions change, there were many middle schools that had no representation at TJ. Those middle schools tended to have high FRE %s.
“Wealth” is a red herring. URMs can’t compete academically with regular non-wealthy non-URM kids. Without experience factors and no rich kids, the admissions would probably be the same as the previous system. The real problem is URM performance, not rich kids.
Stuyvesant' is almost 50% FARM and they are way more Asian than TJ .
Not really relevant here. There are a lot of differences between the student populations and the admissions processes.
The argument is that testing selects for wealth. Stuyvesant' admissions is based purely on testing.
Wealth might help with testing but it REALLY helps with the holistic stuff that you need for compelling essays.
No, isn’t just the testing. Kids from wealthier families have many advantages over kids from lower-income families across the board when it comes to education. Family knowledge and support, tutoring, prep classes, special extracurricular activities, grades, test scores, etc. Buying a home in the “right” school zones.
Wealthier parents can and do pay for things to improve their kids’ chances.
Once again Stuyvesant used a test and ONLY a test for admissions and half their students were on free and reduced lunch. The primary difference between Stuy and TJ was that TJ used holistic factors to pick kid out of a pool of high test scoring kids. If you look at the kids that make it out of the pool, a large part of the "rich school advantage" shows up during the "holistic phase" of the old admissions process.
False. Wealth made a bigger impact on getting into the pool. We’ve gone through this already.
Sorry, it doesn’t fit your narrative, but TJ admissions aren’t comparable to Stuy.
<1 % kids from economically disadvantaged families for TJ class of 2024.
Try reading my claim again.
I didn't claim that poor kids got into pool at higher rates than rich kids. I said [b]a large part of the "rich school advantage" shows up during the holistic phase" of the old admissions process.
Notice how the percentage of of pool is higher at rich schools likeLongfellow Cooper Carson and Kilmer is higher than at middle class neighborhoods like Frost and Rocky Run which is even higher than the percentage of of pool at places like Twain.
No analogy is perfect but to say that TJ admissions are not comparable to Stuyvesant admissions is pretty silly. There are lessons we can draw from Stuy admissions. Among them are that holistic admissions increases wealth disparity.
The larger part of "rich school advantage" shows up as just getting into the pool in the first place. The holistic portion is pretty flat across FRE.
The prior TJ admissions process, including the testing portion to get into the pool, was easily gamed by wealthy families.
And yet wealthy families don't go to TJ. Look in the parking lot, it's Honda, not BMW that you see a lot of.
Anonymous wrote:Does TJ automatically accept the top 1.5% of each middle school? When you have many more than 1.5% taking the same classes and getting all A’s, what happens next?
The top 1.5% doesn't refer to GPA or courses taken.
All kids applying to TJ write a bunch of personal essays and a problem solving essay. The essays are graded, and the kids' scores are based on the essay scores, unweighted GPA, and experience factors (FARMS, IEP, ESOL). The unweighted GPA is not a huge factor, and they don't even look at courses taken or math level.
If a school has 600 8th graders, then it is guaranteed 1.5% of 600 = 9 TJ spots. The 9 kids with the highest scores are offered admissions.
But the highest scores are not the smartest or most prepared, due to the new system eliminating math level, objective testing, courses taken and teacher recommendations, correct?
That is correct. They may be the smartest. They may not be. The ranking is mostly based on the essays and experience factors.
+1
The idea was to get as close to a lottery as possible, which was the solution that the FCPS board tried to push the hardest.
Put a low threshold so that many would qualify and then try to keep the information available on the student to the minimum possible. Then, you get closer to the desired "should represent FCPS demographics". The main problem for FCPS board from achieving this is because of self selection bias and the pool of students who are applying do not represent FCPS demographics.
Just like most opportunists who took advantage of the riots in 2020 to pursue their own interests, FCPS board did the same.
Not really.. The idea was to address the rampant cheating that had tainted selection since many were buying early access to the entrance exam.
I am sorry your child did not get in. Please do not be bitter, as it would impact your child.
I understand your frustration and why you are agitated, but calm down for your kids sake.
There were test banks at certain prep schools with questions kids memorized and told the schools. The test banks gave the students at those schools an advantage. We have seen issues with the AMC tests along these lines as well. MathCounts reminds parents to not take pictures of questions and post them because there are kids in other sections taking the tests later. There is plenty of evidence of cheating/unfair advantages in higher level math competitions and tests.
as fictional as your stories are, can you dare to name one prep school that did this?
DP but wasn’t it Curie? They used to post the names of all their students who got accepted to TJ and it was close to if not over 100 students every year until the criteria changed.
It was one year. They did that one year and the parents were furious to see their kids names in the newspaper identified as having prepped since 3rd grade.
Some students admitted to [bold]memorizing[/bold] and providing questions back to Curie to include in the test bank. That was the year that the Quant test was dropped. The suspicion is that other programs were doing something similar but had not had the same level of success.
you have a cite for this?
There is no way to know if the students who were named had prepped since 3rd grade, the listing only included them in the specific program to prepare for the TJ test that year. There is speculation that many of the kids participated in enrichment programs for a long time. I could care less about that. My kid does math enichment because he enjoys it. Does it help him in school? Yes. Will it help him with whatever test TJ admission uses? Yes. There is no way to remove that element.
Creating a test bank of used questions is a step above enrichment. The test company was not doing its job in adjusting the test on an annual basis, which allowed the test bank to be more useful. There were posts that kids had studied the exact questions that were on the exam, that is a failure of the company. That said, kids were given a huge edge if they were willing to pay a good amount of money to participate in a specific program to gain an advantage.
The"good amount of money" in question is $300. That's what you pay for test prep above the enrichment.
This isn't the SAT or ACT or LSAT or GRE where there are test books available and prep classes are commonplace. It isn't even the tests used by private schools that have tutors and prep programs. It was a test for a specific high school that is supposed to serve all of the kids in the area, not just kids who have access to schools with test banks. You cannot replace the Quant with something used at school because the vast majority of the kids applying to TJ should be passing advanced on their math SOL. Requiring an advanced pass on the math SOL would not remove most of the kids and the scores on the math SOLs for the Honors math classes in MS tend to average high. They really won't help with discriminating between students.
The SHSAT exists and pro books exist for it. There were prep books for the TJ test and quant Q. The prep part of this is the easiest part. Use the PSAT of you want something ubiquitous. That's what they use now for froshmore admissions.
And even under that system there were parents complaining about who was accepted and chagrin that genius child from school X who participated in national competition y was not accepted. There is always going to be complaining about the admissions process. TJ is a public school that is meant to serve the population that is advanced and enjoys STEM. Your version of who should be accepted based on classes is simply different then what the administration thinks.
Any complaints can safely be ignored when the admission standards are objective and merit based.
The current method is subjective and has only a hint of merit.
DP. The "prep books for the quant Q" are laughable and are basically a scam. They are expensive and absolutely worthless, if you look at them instead of just tout their existence. The prep from they-who-shall-not-be-named was invaluable, the proof was on their website.
TJ test prep at cutie was a $300 module over a few weeks.
Many parents spent far more than a few hundred dollars for TJ test prep.
The TJ test prep module at Curie was $300. Curie is the test prep everyone seems to be offended by. It's a classroom setting not one on one tutoring.
No, we are talking about all of the great lengths that parents would go to in order to give their kids a leg up. Years of prep, moving to be in the "right" school zone, counselors to determine the best activities, etc. Wealthy parents have the knowledge and means to game the system and the admissions reflected that.
Wealthy parents don't send their kids to TJ. Wealthy parents in McLean send their kids to Potomac or Flint Hill for the less academically inclined kids.
There is a lot of wealth in this area. Wealthy families have options - some focus on private, others focus on TJ. Either way, they have the knowledge and means to give their kids a leg up in admissions.
1. Kids from wealthier families have many advantages over kids from lower-income families across the board when it comes to education. Family knowledge and support, tutoring, prep classes, special extracurricular activities, grades, test scores, etc.
2. Wealthier parents can and do pay for things to improve their kids’ chances.
3. Wealthier parents tend to understand the application process better - for both TJ and private school.
4. Kids from wealthier families have a higher chance of admission to TJ and private school.
5. Some middle schools have more kids from wealthier families than others.
6. Before the admissions change, there were many middle schools that had no representation at TJ. Those middle schools tended to have high FRE %s.
“Wealth” is a red herring. URMs can’t compete academically with regular non-wealthy non-URM kids. Without experience factors and no rich kids, the admissions would probably be the same as the previous system. The real problem is URM performance, not rich kids.
Stuyvesant' is almost 50% FARM and they are way more Asian than TJ .
Not really relevant here. There are a lot of differences between the student populations and the admissions processes.
The argument is that testing selects for wealth. Stuyvesant' admissions is based purely on testing.
Wealth might help with testing but it REALLY helps with the holistic stuff that you need for compelling essays.
No, isn’t just the testing. Kids from wealthier families have many advantages over kids from lower-income families across the board when it comes to education. Family knowledge and support, tutoring, prep classes, special extracurricular activities, grades, test scores, etc. Buying a home in the “right” school zones.
Wealthier parents can and do pay for things to improve their kids’ chances.
Once again Stuyvesant used a test and ONLY a test for admissions and half their students were on free and reduced lunch. The primary difference between Stuy and TJ was that TJ used holistic factors to pick kid out of a pool of high test scoring kids. If you look at the kids that make it out of the pool, a large part of the "rich school advantage" shows up during the "holistic phase" of the old admissions process.
The pool of kids applying for Stuyvesant is very different then the pool in our area. Wealthy families living in NYC send their kids to private school. Many Wealthy and Upper Middle-Class families live in suburbs where they could not apply for Stuyvesant. You have a much larger population of kids in NYC and a good percentage of the NYC school kids are going to be low income to poor. Asian families are more likely to have invested in academic enrichment then White, Black, or Hispanic families. That leads to a lower-income Asian population as the majority at Stuy.
TJ is located in a portion of Virginia where the top private school options are long commutes. The school has a strong enough reputation that parents are happy to have their kids attend there. The Upper Middle Class in our area is well off but not as easily in place to pay the $50,000-$60,000 a year tuition to the private schools. The lcoal public schools in Mclean are strong so families are willing to send their kids to the public school. The Asian families also send their kids for academic enrichment, but it probably looks different because they can afford more expensive programs. and there is desire to send their kid to the top school. In this case, TJ. That leads to a wealthier student attending TJ. People have noted that the largest percentage increase in TJs population with the new admission policy has been Asian students on FARMS, which is the same profile as the Stuy students.
How is the commute to TJ better than the commute to Potomac for a family in McLean?
If they can't afford $50k/year, are they really wealthy? Or are we talking about middle class kids.
The lack of poor kids is something we can address without eliminating objective standards. They didn't eliminate testing to admit poor kids, they eliminated testing to achieve racial diversity. I would note that at some point a large enough preference risks admitting unqualified students.
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