Fiancé wants a church wedding

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:You both don't need to be Catholic. One of you should be and also registered at the church or a church that his family is registered at. You can't just waltz into any church and demand a wedding ceremony. You will need to be registered parishioners, or use his family church, and complete the wedding prep (Pre-Cana), and just jump through all the hoops.

But your post is very off putting all about you, and what you want. You're supposed to be getting married, it's not all about you.

No. One of them must be Catholic to be married in a Catholic church.

Well, the fiancé is. But the point in this case is that the fiancé is Catholic enough to meet the criteria. But he is not practicing and might say he's not Catholic. But if he was raised Catholic he's been baptized, had his Communion and is confirmed. As far as the Church is concerned, he's Catholic.

Yes, the fiancé is Catholic. The point you’re ignoring is the first pp said one should be Catholic. There’s no should about it with the Catholic church. That’s a must.

I said that. Then I clarified. I said "should" because most people getting married in the Church are there because they want to be, they are in good standing. The fiancé is Catholic, being born and raised, but seems now to be lapsed. If you're lapsed should you still consider yourself Catholic?

You are making zero sense. There is no should about it with a Catholic wedding. It’s a must or there’s no Catholic wedding.

He is a Catholic in the eyes of the church. We know this. But, how he identifies is another thing. Which goes back to OP's point that should they just go along with it for appeasement or is it a mockery? They can have the Catholic wedding, but should they?

That’s all that matters if he wants to be married in a Catholic church. What’s a mockery is OP’s suggestion of lying.

You act as if it's so easy to get married in the church. An indifferent, non-practicing couple still has to meet certain criteria. Maybe it's church attendance, pre-cana, meetings with the priest, good standing, before they will be allowed to book their date. It varies. It's not just "does the one person meet the basic criteria". Sounds like they already have a date and venue for their non religious wedding. Trying to plan a Catholic ceremony into an existing timeline might be a huge hurdle.

Nope. You’re inventing something never said. I only commented that 1 person must be Catholic not should be Catholic. If you don’t meet the minimum of one person being Catholic, the rest of what you wrote is irrelevant because there is no chance of a Catholic wedding.

No chance? Hardly. A non practicing Catholic who has no intention of raising their kids Catholic can still have one if their parents set it all up.

NP: PP was clearly commenting that "should" in that sentence needed to be "must." One party must already be Catholic. There is a difference between non-practicing and not at all Catholic. Your scenario likely involved the non-practicing Catholic having evidence of Baptism, First Communion, and Confirmation, and being willing to take the vows of the Sacrament of Matrimony. Sure, you could fudge your way through that, even if they don't mean it, though dishonesty is truly a terrible way to start a marriage. But, two people, neither of whom has ever had any of the Catholic sacraments will not be able to have parents "pull strings," even if the parents sign the document avowing that the child was not fully catechized through no fault of their own but due to the fault of the parent (that's a thing). There would be some steps before that sacrament was conferred.

Exactly.

The entire point is being missed. If you have no intention of raising the kids, practicing, being religious, what is the point in the Catholic wedding? You have to actually meet with the priest and do marriage prep. I can't believe 2 adults who go through all that and tell the priest they are only doing it because his parents are making them. How ridiculous. So you should be or want to be Catholic to do all of this otherwise it is a farce. Just get married at the pretty venue.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:BTDT. Clearly you have some options- (1) roll over. They will demand to baptize the kids too, first communion, the whole nine yards. Are you going to be able to stand aside & let them do this, when it is your baby/kid? Try to imagine. Some people can, some can’t. For me, it was out of the question. 2) hold very firm. Will cause problems with the family and your DH will resent you.

As a non religious person who has BTDT with the Catholic relatives and been harped on about religion my whole life I present option 3: take “cover” in some type of liberal church or “church”. A lot of people do this. Find some excuse that you need to be married there and attend there- it is close to your house, you have friends who go there, you love the music program or community service or want to send future kid to their school. Think of something- Literally anything. Get married there, attend services maybe 2 times a year or participate in the volunteer program or whatever. When you have kids do whatever baby blessings or baptism ritual they offer. It provides cover and face saving on the ILs end “welllll at least grand baby is being raised Christian blah blah blah” “wellll at least they are being married in a church” blah blah and your future DH will see it is a compromise. He clearly does not care about religion. Not saying your ILs will exactly love this (they won’t- they want Catholic)- but they will grudgingly accept it.

That is your best choice here…take it from someone who has btdt

Why not just do the Catholic in this case? Why go out of your way to be more difficult, if you don't care anyway, to avoid the Catholic rituals? The husband won't want to go along with this farce when he's Catholic and there is a better alternative.

Because Catholicism is a LOT and will require her do a lot, and she will have future ILS dictating everything if she caves on this now. Her future DH doesn’t care about religion and just wants to avoid problems with his family.This is a way to do that long term.

How so? You're still saying do the baptism, go once or twice a year, volunteer, put on the show. How is that different? Nobody is asking her to convert. Why is that better if it's at the Presbyterian church? And it seems pretty obvious her DH DOES care since he's shocked she doesn't want a church wedding, like he does. Apparently OP has not really talked to him about what he wants at all.

No- OP states on page 2 of the thread that “he said we can do a nondenominational church” “wants to appease his family” etc. If that is offered she should most certainly run with it. If it is just for show, it is way easier to do that in a more relaxed church. Anyone with even a passing knowledge of Catholicism could tell you this- the Catholic Church does not make things easy.

Please. OP is full of it. Says her husband went to Catholic school and also church "here and there". As if kids in Catholic school don't go to mass weekly or more. And weird that they talked about raising the kids nonreligious but never talked about having a church wedding until after the venue was booked when suddenly he was "shocked" that she didn't want one. Troll.

Nothing surprising or unusual about her story actually. The guy isn’t actually religious but doesn’t want to upset his religious family. Same for most everyone I know? And I don’t think I am unusual in that respect. It is pretty common.

The thing about being Catholic is, it’s like being Jewish. He might say he’s not actually religious, but it’s not something that just goes away, it’s ingrained in you for life (even if in the negative aspect).

And grown adults disregard what their family wishes *all* the time. This guy wants to get married in church, ultimately, because HE wants to. This is his quietly wrapped up Catholic conscience rearing its head—this will not be the last time this happens in their marriage.

This is VERY true. My DH of 20 yrs, who was raised Catholic, but never went (our kids aren't even Catholic) has suddenly started going to mass every week. WTF, really.

My raised Catholic DH who has local parents who still attend mass multiple times per week thankfully has zero interest in religion. I’m the one that says we should occasionally dress the kids up for Easter and take them to mass with his family as a nice gesture.

But I’m only willing to do this because his parents thankfully didn’t guilt us about not getting married in a church. My BIL knocked his now wife up in college and had a courthouse shotgun wedding so I guess in comparison they were just glad we were having a wedding. But I absolutely would not have given an inch if they tried to guilt us about it.

I grew up down south around religious people who like to bully others about their beliefs. The thing about really religious people is that they are convinced they are right and everyone else is wrong (I mean that is the essence of genuinely believing your God is the one and only correct God and that your duty is to spread the word to others and make them believe). It’s obnoxious and turned me off of religion in a huge way (thanks friends’ parents who invited me for a sleepover and then prayed for my soul at bedtime because I was going to go to hell because my parents didn’t take me to church and baptize me, way to traumatize a 9 year old child).

When there is a divide between believers and non-believers it is always “oh you have to respect their religious beliefs” but why isn’t the reverse true?

Sorry for the digression, but I think OP really needs to figure this out before she is married with a couple kids and has a DH and in laws guilting her as a mother.

+100!
Set the boundaries now before invasive inlaws take over every aspect of their life.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:BTDT. Clearly you have some options- (1) roll over. They will demand to baptize the kids too, first communion, the whole nine yards. Are you going to be able to stand aside & let them do this, when it is your baby/kid? Try to imagine. Some people can, some can’t. For me, it was out of the question. 2) hold very firm. Will cause problems with the family and your DH will resent you.

As a non religious person who has BTDT with the Catholic relatives and been harped on about religion my whole life I present option 3: take “cover” in some type of liberal church or “church”. A lot of people do this. Find some excuse that you need to be married there and attend there- it is close to your house, you have friends who go there, you love the music program or community service or want to send future kid to their school. Think of something- Literally anything. Get married there, attend services maybe 2 times a year or participate in the volunteer program or whatever. When you have kids do whatever baby blessings or baptism ritual they offer. It provides cover and face saving on the ILs end “welllll at least grand baby is being raised Christian blah blah blah” “wellll at least they are being married in a church” blah blah and your future DH will see it is a compromise. He clearly does not care about religion. Not saying your ILs will exactly love this (they won’t- they want Catholic)- but they will grudgingly accept it.

That is your best choice here…take it from someone who has btdt

Why not just do the Catholic in this case? Why go out of your way to be more difficult, if you don't care anyway, to avoid the Catholic rituals? The husband won't want to go along with this farce when he's Catholic and there is a better alternative.

Because Catholicism is a LOT and will require her do a lot, and she will have future ILS dictating everything if she caves on this now. Her future DH doesn’t care about religion and just wants to avoid problems with his family.This is a way to do that long term.

How so? You're still saying do the baptism, go once or twice a year, volunteer, put on the show. How is that different? Nobody is asking her to convert. Why is that better if it's at the Presbyterian church? And it seems pretty obvious her DH DOES care since he's shocked she doesn't want a church wedding, like he does. Apparently OP has not really talked to him about what he wants at all.

No- OP states on page 2 of the thread that “he said we can do a nondenominational church” “wants to appease his family” etc. If that is offered she should most certainly run with it. If it is just for show, it is way easier to do that in a more relaxed church. Anyone with even a passing knowledge of Catholicism could tell you this- the Catholic Church does not make things easy.

Please. OP is full of it. Says her husband went to Catholic school and also church "here and there". As if kids in Catholic school don't go to mass weekly or more. And weird that they talked about raising the kids nonreligious but never talked about having a church wedding until after the venue was booked when suddenly he was "shocked" that she didn't want one. Troll.

Nothing surprising or unusual about her story actually. The guy isn’t actually religious but doesn’t want to upset his religious family. Same for most everyone I know? And I don’t think I am unusual in that respect. It is pretty common.

The thing about being Catholic is, it’s like being Jewish. He might say he’s not actually religious, but it’s not something that just goes away, it’s ingrained in you for life (even if in the negative aspect).

And grown adults disregard what their family wishes *all* the time. This guy wants to get married in church, ultimately, because HE wants to. This is his quietly wrapped up Catholic conscience rearing its head—this will not be the last time this happens in their marriage.

This is VERY true. My DH of 20 yrs, who was raised Catholic, but never went (our kids aren't even Catholic) has suddenly started going to mass every week. WTF, really.

My raised Catholic DH who has local parents who still attend mass multiple times per week thankfully has zero interest in religion. I’m the one that says we should occasionally dress the kids up for Easter and take them to mass with his family as a nice gesture.

But I’m only willing to do this because his parents thankfully didn’t guilt us about not getting married in a church. My BIL knocked his now wife up in college and had a courthouse shotgun wedding so I guess in comparison they were just glad we were having a wedding. But I absolutely would not have given an inch if they tried to guilt us about it.

I grew up down south around religious people who like to bully others about their beliefs. The thing about really religious people is that they are convinced they are right and everyone else is wrong (I mean that is the essence of genuinely believing your God is the one and only correct God and that your duty is to spread the word to others and make them believe). It’s obnoxious and turned me off of religion in a huge way (thanks friends’ parents who invited me for a sleepover and then prayed for my soul at bedtime because I was going to go to hell because my parents didn’t take me to church and baptize me, way to traumatize a 9 year old child).

When there is a divide between believers and non-believers it is always “oh you have to respect their religious beliefs” but why isn’t the reverse true?

Sorry for the digression, but I think OP really needs to figure this out before she is married with a couple kids and has a DH and in laws guilting her as a mother.

I understand religious people wanting others to believe. The thing that I don’t understand is: why do they want others to pretend? Most of the time that is what they are (knowingly) asking people to do. Why? I don’t really see how this would be satisfying. It makes the whole thing a mockery IMO. You can twist someone’s arm and get them to marry in a church or baptize their kid or other rituals - but the odds that kid will turn out religious are somewhere between slim and none anyway.

[Anonymous]

If OP were Jewish and said she and her DH had already agreed upon raising their kids with Jewish beliefs and traditions, but he wanted her to pretend not to be Jewish and that they were going to raise their kids Catholic and get married in a Catholic Church, would some of you PPs still be saying she should give in because it’s not that important and she should just make DH and his family happy?

I’m so tired of non-belief being treated as less than belief in religion.

My belief that religion is all made up because historically humans needed a way to explain things they don’t understand and to control people into acting in certain ways to proliferate our species is just as valid as belief in Catholicism. The main difference is I tend not to broadcast this belief to any and everyone because I respect that others believe differently and I have no desire to convert people to my way of thinking or have them plan events to cater to my beliefs. If some day my children decide to convert and have a full Catholic mass wedding, I will be there with a smile and bells on. I would never dream in a million years of telling (or silently guilting) my boys into thinking they couldn’t get married at the church they and their bride had chosen because I only want them married outside a church consistent with my non-belief.

That would be incredibly narcissistic and yet that is how so many aggressively religious people behave.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:BTDT. Clearly you have some options- (1) roll over. They will demand to baptize the kids too, first communion, the whole nine yards. Are you going to be able to stand aside & let them do this, when it is your baby/kid? Try to imagine. Some people can, some can’t. For me, it was out of the question. 2) hold very firm. Will cause problems with the family and your DH will resent you.

As a non religious person who has BTDT with the Catholic relatives and been harped on about religion my whole life I present option 3: take “cover” in some type of liberal church or “church”. A lot of people do this. Find some excuse that you need to be married there and attend there- it is close to your house, you have friends who go there, you love the music program or community service or want to send future kid to their school. Think of something- Literally anything. Get married there, attend services maybe 2 times a year or participate in the volunteer program or whatever. When you have kids do whatever baby blessings or baptism ritual they offer. It provides cover and face saving on the ILs end “welllll at least grand baby is being raised Christian blah blah blah” “wellll at least they are being married in a church” blah blah and your future DH will see it is a compromise. He clearly does not care about religion. Not saying your ILs will exactly love this (they won’t- they want Catholic)- but they will grudgingly accept it.

That is your best choice here…take it from someone who has btdt

Why not just do the Catholic in this case? Why go out of your way to be more difficult, if you don't care anyway, to avoid the Catholic rituals? The husband won't want to go along with this farce when he's Catholic and there is a better alternative.

Because Catholicism is a LOT and will require her do a lot, and she will have future ILS dictating everything if she caves on this now. Her future DH doesn’t care about religion and just wants to avoid problems with his family.This is a way to do that long term.

How so? You're still saying do the baptism, go once or twice a year, volunteer, put on the show. How is that different? Nobody is asking her to convert. Why is that better if it's at the Presbyterian church? And it seems pretty obvious her DH DOES care since he's shocked she doesn't want a church wedding, like he does. Apparently OP has not really talked to him about what he wants at all.

No- OP states on page 2 of the thread that “he said we can do a nondenominational church” “wants to appease his family” etc. If that is offered she should most certainly run with it. If it is just for show, it is way easier to do that in a more relaxed church. Anyone with even a passing knowledge of Catholicism could tell you this- the Catholic Church does not make things easy.

Please. OP is full of it. Says her husband went to Catholic school and also church "here and there". As if kids in Catholic school don't go to mass weekly or more. And weird that they talked about raising the kids nonreligious but never talked about having a church wedding until after the venue was booked when suddenly he was "shocked" that she didn't want one. Troll.

Nothing surprising or unusual about her story actually. The guy isn’t actually religious but doesn’t want to upset his religious family. Same for most everyone I know? And I don’t think I am unusual in that respect. It is pretty common.

The thing about being Catholic is, it’s like being Jewish. He might say he’s not actually religious, but it’s not something that just goes away, it’s ingrained in you for life (even if in the negative aspect).

And grown adults disregard what their family wishes *all* the time. This guy wants to get married in church, ultimately, because HE wants to. This is his quietly wrapped up Catholic conscience rearing its head—this will not be the last time this happens in their marriage.

This is VERY true. My DH of 20 yrs, who was raised Catholic, but never went (our kids aren't even Catholic) has suddenly started going to mass every week. WTF, really.

My raised Catholic DH who has local parents who still attend mass multiple times per week thankfully has zero interest in religion. I’m the one that says we should occasionally dress the kids up for Easter and take them to mass with his family as a nice gesture.

But I’m only willing to do this because his parents thankfully didn’t guilt us about not getting married in a church. My BIL knocked his now wife up in college and had a courthouse shotgun wedding so I guess in comparison they were just glad we were having a wedding. But I absolutely would not have given an inch if they tried to guilt us about it.

I grew up down south around religious people who like to bully others about their beliefs. The thing about really religious people is that they are convinced they are right and everyone else is wrong (I mean that is the essence of genuinely believing your God is the one and only correct God and that your duty is to spread the word to others and make them believe). It’s obnoxious and turned me off of religion in a huge way (thanks friends’ parents who invited me for a sleepover and then prayed for my soul at bedtime because I was going to go to hell because my parents didn’t take me to church and baptize me, way to traumatize a 9 year old child).

When there is a divide between believers and non-believers it is always “oh you have to respect their religious beliefs” but why isn’t the reverse true?

Sorry for the digression, but I think OP really needs to figure this out before she is married with a couple kids and has a DH and in laws guilting her as a mother.

+100!
Set the boundaries now before invasive inlaws take over every aspect of their life.

+200 OP it is your wedding and these will be your kids. Best to set boundaries now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You both don't need to be Catholic. One of you should be and also registered at the church or a church that his family is registered at. You can't just waltz into any church and demand a wedding ceremony. You will need to be registered parishioners, or use his family church, and complete the wedding prep (Pre-Cana), and just jump through all the hoops.

But your post is very off putting all about you, and what you want. You're supposed to be getting married, it's not all about you.

No. One of them must be Catholic to be married in a Catholic church.

Well, the fiancé is. But the point in this case is that the fiancé is Catholic enough to meet the criteria. But he is not practicing and might say he's not Catholic. But if he was raised Catholic he's been baptized, had his Communion and is confirmed. As far as the Church is concerned, he's Catholic.

Yes, the fiancé is Catholic. The point you’re ignoring is the first pp said one should be Catholic. There’s no should about it with the Catholic church. That’s a must.

I said that. Then I clarified. I said "should" because most people getting married in the Church are there because they want to be, they are in good standing. The fiancé is Catholic, being born and raised, but seems now to be lapsed. If you're lapsed should you still consider yourself Catholic?

You are making zero sense. There is no should about it with a Catholic wedding. It’s a must or there’s no Catholic wedding.

He is a Catholic in the eyes of the church. We know this. But, how he identifies is another thing. Which goes back to OP's point that should they just go along with it for appeasement or is it a mockery? They can have the Catholic wedding, but should they?

That’s all that matters if he wants to be married in a Catholic church. What’s a mockery is OP’s suggestion of lying.

You act as if it's so easy to get married in the church. An indifferent, non-practicing couple still has to meet certain criteria. Maybe it's church attendance, pre-cana, meetings with the priest, good standing, before they will be allowed to book their date. It varies. It's not just "does the one person meet the basic criteria". Sounds like they already have a date and venue for their non religious wedding. Trying to plan a Catholic ceremony into an existing timeline might be a huge hurdle.

Nope. You’re inventing something never said. I only commented that 1 person must be Catholic not should be Catholic. If you don’t meet the minimum of one person being Catholic, the rest of what you wrote is irrelevant because there is no chance of a Catholic wedding.

No chance? Hardly. A non practicing Catholic who has no intention of raising their kids Catholic can still have one if their parents set it all up.

Bolded the part you failed to read. Parents can’t set up a wedding if the kid wasn’t Catholic.

Obviously the parents would be doing this at their church. Do you now how any of this works? If fiancé had never set foot in that church the parents could still set it up. That's the point.

and the kid is Catholic, as one party to the marriage must be. That is the point.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You both don't need to be Catholic. One of you should be and also registered at the church or a church that his family is registered at. You can't just waltz into any church and demand a wedding ceremony. You will need to be registered parishioners, or use his family church, and complete the wedding prep (Pre-Cana), and just jump through all the hoops.

But your post is very off putting all about you, and what you want. You're supposed to be getting married, it's not all about you.

No. One of them must be Catholic to be married in a Catholic church.

Well, the fiancé is. But the point in this case is that the fiancé is Catholic enough to meet the criteria. But he is not practicing and might say he's not Catholic. But if he was raised Catholic he's been baptized, had his Communion and is confirmed. As far as the Church is concerned, he's Catholic.

Yes, the fiancé is Catholic. The point you’re ignoring is the first pp said one should be Catholic. There’s no should about it with the Catholic church. That’s a must.

I said that. Then I clarified. I said "should" because most people getting married in the Church are there because they want to be, they are in good standing. The fiancé is Catholic, being born and raised, but seems now to be lapsed. If you're lapsed should you still consider yourself Catholic?

You are making zero sense. There is no should about it with a Catholic wedding. It’s a must or there’s no Catholic wedding.

He is a Catholic in the eyes of the church. We know this. But, how he identifies is another thing. Which goes back to OP's point that should they just go along with it for appeasement or is it a mockery? They can have the Catholic wedding, but should they?

That’s all that matters if he wants to be married in a Catholic church. What’s a mockery is OP’s suggestion of lying.

You act as if it's so easy to get married in the church. An indifferent, non-practicing couple still has to meet certain criteria. Maybe it's church attendance, pre-cana, meetings with the priest, good standing, before they will be allowed to book their date. It varies. It's not just "does the one person meet the basic criteria". Sounds like they already have a date and venue for their non religious wedding. Trying to plan a Catholic ceremony into an existing timeline might be a huge hurdle.

Nope. You’re inventing something never said. I only commented that 1 person must be Catholic not should be Catholic. If you don’t meet the minimum of one person being Catholic, the rest of what you wrote is irrelevant because there is no chance of a Catholic wedding.

No chance? Hardly. A non practicing Catholic who has no intention of raising their kids Catholic can still have one if their parents set it all up.

Bolded the part you failed to read. Parents can’t set up a wedding if the kid wasn’t Catholic.

Obviously the parents would be doing this at their church. Do you now how any of this works? If fiancé had never set foot in that church the parents could still set it up. That's the point.

No. It really isn’t the point.

A Catholic has the canonical right to receive sacraments, including matrimony, in the Church of their residential parish, if they are “properly disposed” as discussed in prior posts.

Any other Catholic Church needs to communicate and coordinate with the residential parish before having a wedding there. This happens all the time. Parties may be extremely active Catholics at, for example, a non-parish Shrine or a religious order house, but have no real connection to the residential parish. Or they may want to marry where the parents reside and attend Mass. it is certainly not insurmountable, but the paperwork has to be in order.

The priest also has to be convinced that the parties intend a valid, Sacramental, marriage. In OP’s case, there seems significant doubt that she has any interest in or intention toward “Christian” (Catholic) marriage. Even her prospective husband’s intentions are less than clear in that regard since he seems more concerned with appearance than substance.

The parents could certainly try to intercede with the priest, but he still needs to be morally convinced that the couple presenting themselves for marriage intend what the Church intends.

OP’s case is very different from the situation of two baptized and strongly cultural Catholics who may not be religiously sophisticated or regulars at Mass, but nonetheless present with an objective hope of founding a Catholic home.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You both don't need to be Catholic. One of you should be and also registered at the church or a church that his family is registered at. You can't just waltz into any church and demand a wedding ceremony. You will need to be registered parishioners, or use his family church, and complete the wedding prep (Pre-Cana), and just jump through all the hoops.

But your post is very off putting all about you, and what you want. You're supposed to be getting married, it's not all about you.

No. One of them must be Catholic to be married in a Catholic church.

Well, the fiancé is. But the point in this case is that the fiancé is Catholic enough to meet the criteria. But he is not practicing and might say he's not Catholic. But if he was raised Catholic he's been baptized, had his Communion and is confirmed. As far as the Church is concerned, he's Catholic.

Yes, the fiancé is Catholic. The point you’re ignoring is the first pp said one should be Catholic. There’s no should about it with the Catholic church. That’s a must.

I said that. Then I clarified. I said "should" because most people getting married in the Church are there because they want to be, they are in good standing. The fiancé is Catholic, being born and raised, but seems now to be lapsed. If you're lapsed should you still consider yourself Catholic?

You are making zero sense. There is no should about it with a Catholic wedding. It’s a must or there’s no Catholic wedding.

He is a Catholic in the eyes of the church. We know this. But, how he identifies is another thing. Which goes back to OP's point that should they just go along with it for appeasement or is it a mockery? They can have the Catholic wedding, but should they?

That’s all that matters if he wants to be married in a Catholic church. What’s a mockery is OP’s suggestion of lying.

You act as if it's so easy to get married in the church. An indifferent, non-practicing couple still has to meet certain criteria. Maybe it's church attendance, pre-cana, meetings with the priest, good standing, before they will be allowed to book their date. It varies. It's not just "does the one person meet the basic criteria". Sounds like they already have a date and venue for their non religious wedding. Trying to plan a Catholic ceremony into an existing timeline might be a huge hurdle.

Nope. You’re inventing something never said. I only commented that 1 person must be Catholic not should be Catholic. If you don’t meet the minimum of one person being Catholic, the rest of what you wrote is irrelevant because there is no chance of a Catholic wedding.

No chance? Hardly. A non practicing Catholic who has no intention of raising their kids Catholic can still have one if their parents set it all up.

Bolded the part you failed to read. Parents can’t set up a wedding if the kid wasn’t Catholic.

Obviously the parents would be doing this at their church. Do you now how any of this works? If fiancé had never set foot in that church the parents could still set it up. That's the point.

and the kid is Catholic, as one party to the marriage must be. That is the point.

I get it. But he will not be in good standing if he’s lying his ass off about why he is there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If OP were Jewish and said she and her DH had already agreed upon raising their kids with Jewish beliefs and traditions, but he wanted her to pretend not to be Jewish and that they were going to raise their kids Catholic and get married in a Catholic Church, would some of you PPs still be saying she should give in because it’s not that important and she should just make DH and his family happy?

I’m so tired of non-belief being treated as less than belief in religion.

My belief that religion is all made up because historically humans needed a way to explain things they don’t understand and to control people into acting in certain ways to proliferate our species is just as valid as belief in Catholicism. The main difference is I tend not to broadcast this belief to any and everyone because I respect that others believe differently and I have no desire to convert people to my way of thinking or have them plan events to cater to my beliefs. If some day my children decide to convert and have a full Catholic mass wedding, I will be there with a smile and bells on. I would never dream in a million years of telling (or silently guilting) my boys into thinking they couldn’t get married at the church they and their bride had chosen because I only want them married outside a church consistent with my non-belief.

That would be incredibly narcissistic and yet that is how so many aggressively religious people behave.

Agreed. I’m the pp who suggested “hiding” by loosely affiliating with a loose goosey church (many others there will also be non religious), and for this exact reason. For whatever reason, religious bully types will semi-respect this yet will not respect being altogether non-religious.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Find a simple chapel that isn’t affiliated with the Catholic Church (or any church). It is unethical for your fiancé’s family to ask you to lie about being a Catholic. I wouldn’t even consider that as an option.

I don't think they are asking her to lie about being Catholic, as they know that is not required. PP is assuming that.

However, OP does need to appreciate that this isn't just a wedding; it is a religious sacrament. One of the marriage vows OP will have to make to marry in the Catholic church is the vow before God, the Church and all present at the sacrament that she WILL raise the children Catholic. She should not lie about this. She does not want to make this vow, and so this is the most basic conversation she has to have with her fiance. Because it sounds like he wants to make this vow.

As previously noted, this is not required, and it never was part of the vows. It is the Catholic party who must promises to do their best to raise Catholic children, and that is not in the vows either.

OP, says he has no intention of keeping that promise. A promise is a vow. And during the ceremony, the priest asks the couple (or the Catholic party) to answer this question: "Are you prepared to accept children lovingly from God and bring them up according to the law of Christ and his Church?”

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:BTDT. Clearly you have some options- (1) roll over. They will demand to baptize the kids too, first communion, the whole nine yards. Are you going to be able to stand aside & let them do this, when it is your baby/kid? Try to imagine. Some people can, some can’t. For me, it was out of the question. 2) hold very firm. Will cause problems with the family and your DH will resent you.

As a non religious person who has BTDT with the Catholic relatives and been harped on about religion my whole life I present option 3: take “cover” in some type of liberal church or “church”. A lot of people do this. Find some excuse that you need to be married there and attend there- it is close to your house, you have friends who go there, you love the music program or community service or want to send future kid to their school. Think of something- Literally anything. Get married there, attend services maybe 2 times a year or participate in the volunteer program or whatever. When you have kids do whatever baby blessings or baptism ritual they offer. It provides cover and face saving on the ILs end “welllll at least grand baby is being raised Christian blah blah blah” “wellll at least they are being married in a church” blah blah and your future DH will see it is a compromise. He clearly does not care about religion. Not saying your ILs will exactly love this (they won’t- they want Catholic)- but they will grudgingly accept it.

That is your best choice here…take it from someone who has btdt

Why not just do the Catholic in this case? Why go out of your way to be more difficult, if you don't care anyway, to avoid the Catholic rituals? The husband won't want to go along with this farce when he's Catholic and there is a better alternative.

Because Catholicism is a LOT and will require her do a lot, and she will have future ILS dictating everything if she caves on this now. Her future DH doesn’t care about religion and just wants to avoid problems with his family.This is a way to do that long term.

How so? You're still saying do the baptism, go once or twice a year, volunteer, put on the show. How is that different? Nobody is asking her to convert. Why is that better if it's at the Presbyterian church? And it seems pretty obvious her DH DOES care since he's shocked she doesn't want a church wedding, like he does. Apparently OP has not really talked to him about what he wants at all.

No- OP states on page 2 of the thread that “he said we can do a nondenominational church” “wants to appease his family” etc. If that is offered she should most certainly run with it. If it is just for show, it is way easier to do that in a more relaxed church. Anyone with even a passing knowledge of Catholicism could tell you this- the Catholic Church does not make things easy.

Please. OP is full of it. Says her husband went to Catholic school and also church "here and there". As if kids in Catholic school don't go to mass weekly or more. And weird that they talked about raising the kids nonreligious but never talked about having a church wedding until after the venue was booked when suddenly he was "shocked" that she didn't want one. Troll.

Nothing surprising or unusual about her story actually. The guy isn’t actually religious but doesn’t want to upset his religious family. Same for most everyone I know? And I don’t think I am unusual in that respect. It is pretty common.

The thing about being Catholic is, it’s like being Jewish. He might say he’s not actually religious, but it’s not something that just goes away, it’s ingrained in you for life (even if in the negative aspect).

And grown adults disregard what their family wishes *all* the time. This guy wants to get married in church, ultimately, because HE wants to. This is his quietly wrapped up Catholic conscience rearing its head—this will not be the last time this happens in their marriage.

This is VERY true. My DH of 20 yrs, who was raised Catholic, but never went (our kids aren't even Catholic) has suddenly started going to mass every week. WTF, really.

My raised Catholic DH who has local parents who still attend mass multiple times per week thankfully has zero interest in religion. I’m the one that says we should occasionally dress the kids up for Easter and take them to mass with his family as a nice gesture.

But I’m only willing to do this because his parents thankfully didn’t guilt us about not getting married in a church. My BIL knocked his now wife up in college and had a courthouse shotgun wedding so I guess in comparison they were just glad we were having a wedding. But I absolutely would not have given an inch if they tried to guilt us about it.

I grew up down south around religious people who like to bully others about their beliefs. The thing about really religious people is that they are convinced they are right and everyone else is wrong (I mean that is the essence of genuinely believing your God is the one and only correct God and that your duty is to spread the word to others and make them believe). It’s obnoxious and turned me off of religion in a huge way (thanks friends’ parents who invited me for a sleepover and then prayed for my soul at bedtime because I was going to go to hell because my parents didn’t take me to church and baptize me, way to traumatize a 9 year old child).

When there is a divide between believers and non-believers it is always “oh you have to respect their religious beliefs” but why isn’t the reverse true?

Sorry for the digression, but I think OP really needs to figure this out before she is married with a couple kids and has a DH and in laws guilting her as a mother.

I understand religious people wanting others to believe. The thing that I don’t understand is: why do they want others to pretend? Most of the time that is what they are (knowingly) asking people to do. Why? I don’t really see how this would be satisfying. It makes the whole thing a mockery IMO. You can twist someone’s arm and get them to marry in a church or baptize their kid or other rituals - but the odds that kid will turn out religious are somewhere between slim and none anyway.

I agree, it’s totally weird. There’s a reason “Catholic guilt” is a thing — it’s a religion based on twisting the next generation’s arm into doing what you want.

Also I’ll mention that the few times I’ve taken my kids to mass as a nice gesture I’ve always felt gross after. The first time we went (about a decade ago when gay marriage was a huge issue before the Supreme Court) the service touched on the whole man and woman thing. My in laws are also really pro life. It’s so hard to stomach and now that my kids are older and can understand more we’ve stopped taking them.

I’d rather raise my kids to believe in human rights than pretend to believe in a religion to make other people happy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If OP were Jewish and said she and her DH had already agreed upon raising their kids with Jewish beliefs and traditions, but he wanted her to pretend not to be Jewish and that they were going to raise their kids Catholic and get married in a Catholic Church, would some of you PPs still be saying she should give in because it’s not that important and she should just make DH and his family happy?

I’m so tired of non-belief being treated as less than belief in religion.

My belief that religion is all made up because historically humans needed a way to explain things they don’t understand and to control people into acting in certain ways to proliferate our species is just as valid as belief in Catholicism. The main difference is I tend not to broadcast this belief to any and everyone because I respect that others believe differently and I have no desire to convert people to my way of thinking or have them plan events to cater to my beliefs. If some day my children decide to convert and have a full Catholic mass wedding, I will be there with a smile and bells on. I would never dream in a million years of telling (or silently guilting) my boys into thinking they couldn’t get married at the church they and their bride had chosen because I only want them married outside a church consistent with my non-belief.

That would be incredibly narcissistic and yet that is how so many aggressively religious people behave.

Agreed. I’m the pp who suggested “hiding” by loosely affiliating with a loose goosey church (many others there will also be non religious), and for this exact reason. For whatever reason, religious bully types will semi-respect this yet will not respect being altogether non-religious.

That makes sense. If I really had to deal with this fight in my life I’d pick some warm and fuzzy church that feeds the homeless and has those rainbow we accept everyone flags outside.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:You both don't need to be Catholic. One of you should be and also registered at the church or a church that his family is registered at. You can't just waltz into any church and demand a wedding ceremony. You will need to be registered parishioners, or use his family church, and complete the wedding prep (Pre-Cana), and just jump through all the hoops.

But your post is very off putting all about you, and what you want. You're supposed to be getting married, it's not all about you.

No. One of them must be Catholic to be married in a Catholic church.

Well, the fiancé is. But the point in this case is that the fiancé is Catholic enough to meet the criteria. But he is not practicing and might say he's not Catholic. But if he was raised Catholic he's been baptized, had his Communion and is confirmed. As far as the Church is concerned, he's Catholic.

Yes, the fiancé is Catholic. The point you’re ignoring is the first pp said one should be Catholic. There’s no should about it with the Catholic church. That’s a must.

I said that. Then I clarified. I said "should" because most people getting married in the Church are there because they want to be, they are in good standing. The fiancé is Catholic, being born and raised, but seems now to be lapsed. If you're lapsed should you still consider yourself Catholic?

You are making zero sense. There is no should about it with a Catholic wedding. It’s a must or there’s no Catholic wedding.

He is a Catholic in the eyes of the church. We know this. But, how he identifies is another thing. Which goes back to OP's point that should they just go along with it for appeasement or is it a mockery? They can have the Catholic wedding, but should they?

That’s all that matters if he wants to be married in a Catholic church. What’s a mockery is OP’s suggestion of lying.

You act as if it's so easy to get married in the church. An indifferent, non-practicing couple still has to meet certain criteria. Maybe it's church attendance, pre-cana, meetings with the priest, good standing, before they will be allowed to book their date. It varies. It's not just "does the one person meet the basic criteria". Sounds like they already have a date and venue for their non religious wedding. Trying to plan a Catholic ceremony into an existing timeline might be a huge hurdle.

Nope. You’re inventing something never said. I only commented that 1 person must be Catholic not should be Catholic. If you don’t meet the minimum of one person being Catholic, the rest of what you wrote is irrelevant because there is no chance of a Catholic wedding.

No chance? Hardly. A non practicing Catholic who has no intention of raising their kids Catholic can still have one if their parents set it all up.

Bolded the part you failed to read. Parents can’t set up a wedding if the kid wasn’t Catholic.

Obviously the parents would be doing this at their church. Do you now how any of this works? If fiancé had never set foot in that church the parents could still set it up. That's the point.

and the kid is Catholic, as one party to the marriage must be. That is the point.

I get it. But he will not be in good standing if he’s lying his ass off about why he is there.

The prospective husband IS Catholic. So nobody would be lying about that. The prospective spouse could try to misrepresent her status but would be found out very quickly.

The Church is not in the “fancy ceremony” business, although it is mighty good at them. It is in the valid sacrament business, and as OP describes the situation it seems pretty doubtful that absent significant change of mind/heart anybody would be entering into a valid sacrament even if they went through all the motions.

As PP’s have observed, OP and her prospective husband sound very young, immature and more than a little narcissistic. What’s going on between them seems to have almost nothing really to do with religion; the same problem would present if she wanted everything at her dream venue and he wanted to have the reception there but the marriage ceremony at Great Falls before a Druid priestess.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:BTDT. Clearly you have some options- (1) roll over. They will demand to baptize the kids too, first communion, the whole nine yards. Are you going to be able to stand aside & let them do this, when it is your baby/kid? Try to imagine. Some people can, some can’t. For me, it was out of the question. 2) hold very firm. Will cause problems with the family and your DH will resent you.

As a non religious person who has BTDT with the Catholic relatives and been harped on about religion my whole life I present option 3: take “cover” in some type of liberal church or “church”. A lot of people do this. Find some excuse that you need to be married there and attend there- it is close to your house, you have friends who go there, you love the music program or community service or want to send future kid to their school. Think of something- Literally anything. Get married there, attend services maybe 2 times a year or participate in the volunteer program or whatever. When you have kids do whatever baby blessings or baptism ritual they offer. It provides cover and face saving on the ILs end “welllll at least grand baby is being raised Christian blah blah blah” “wellll at least they are being married in a church” blah blah and your future DH will see it is a compromise. He clearly does not care about religion. Not saying your ILs will exactly love this (they won’t- they want Catholic)- but they will grudgingly accept it.

That is your best choice here…take it from someone who has btdt

Why not just do the Catholic in this case? Why go out of your way to be more difficult, if you don't care anyway, to avoid the Catholic rituals? The husband won't want to go along with this farce when he's Catholic and there is a better alternative.

Because Catholicism is a LOT and will require her do a lot, and she will have future ILS dictating everything if she caves on this now. Her future DH doesn’t care about religion and just wants to avoid problems with his family.This is a way to do that long term.

How so? You're still saying do the baptism, go once or twice a year, volunteer, put on the show. How is that different? Nobody is asking her to convert. Why is that better if it's at the Presbyterian church? And it seems pretty obvious her DH DOES care since he's shocked she doesn't want a church wedding, like he does. Apparently OP has not really talked to him about what he wants at all.

No- OP states on page 2 of the thread that “he said we can do a nondenominational church” “wants to appease his family” etc. If that is offered she should most certainly run with it. If it is just for show, it is way easier to do that in a more relaxed church. Anyone with even a passing knowledge of Catholicism could tell you this- the Catholic Church does not make things easy.

Please. OP is full of it. Says her husband went to Catholic school and also church "here and there". As if kids in Catholic school don't go to mass weekly or more. And weird that they talked about raising the kids nonreligious but never talked about having a church wedding until after the venue was booked when suddenly he was "shocked" that she didn't want one. Troll.

Nothing surprising or unusual about her story actually. The guy isn’t actually religious but doesn’t want to upset his religious family. Same for most everyone I know? And I don’t think I am unusual in that respect. It is pretty common.

The thing about being Catholic is, it’s like being Jewish. He might say he’s not actually religious, but it’s not something that just goes away, it’s ingrained in you for life (even if in the negative aspect).

And grown adults disregard what their family wishes *all* the time. This guy wants to get married in church, ultimately, because HE wants to. This is his quietly wrapped up Catholic conscience rearing its head—this will not be the last time this happens in their marriage.

This is VERY true. My DH of 20 yrs, who was raised Catholic, but never went (our kids aren't even Catholic) has suddenly started going to mass every week. WTF, really.

My raised Catholic DH who has local parents who still attend mass multiple times per week thankfully has zero interest in religion. I’m the one that says we should occasionally dress the kids up for Easter and take them to mass with his family as a nice gesture.

But I’m only willing to do this because his parents thankfully didn’t guilt us about not getting married in a church. My BIL knocked his now wife up in college and had a courthouse shotgun wedding so I guess in comparison they were just glad we were having a wedding. But I absolutely would not have given an inch if they tried to guilt us about it.

I grew up down south around religious people who like to bully others about their beliefs. The thing about really religious people is that they are convinced they are right and everyone else is wrong (I mean that is the essence of genuinely believing your God is the one and only correct God and that your duty is to spread the word to others and make them believe). It’s obnoxious and turned me off of religion in a huge way (thanks friends’ parents who invited me for a sleepover and then prayed for my soul at bedtime because I was going to go to hell because my parents didn’t take me to church and baptize me, way to traumatize a 9 year old child).

When there is a divide between believers and non-believers it is always “oh you have to respect their religious beliefs” but why isn’t the reverse true?

Sorry for the digression, but I think OP really needs to figure this out before she is married with a couple kids and has a DH and in laws guilting her as a mother.

+100!
Set the boundaries now before invasive inlaws take over every aspect of their life.

I’m the PP you responded to. I’ll add that religious beliefs don’t exist in a vacuum inside a church building. They tend to carry over into political beliefs, ideas about how the holidays should be spent, etc.

Today it’s a wedding ceremony venue, but this could be the tip of the iceberg.

OP needs to figure out the extent of her DH’s beliefs and vision for their future life together/set boundaries for her in-laws’ influence.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Find a simple chapel that isn’t affiliated with the Catholic Church (or any church). It is unethical for your fiancé’s family to ask you to lie about being a Catholic. I wouldn’t even consider that as an option.

I don't think they are asking her to lie about being Catholic, as they know that is not required. PP is assuming that.

However, OP does need to appreciate that this isn't just a wedding; it is a religious sacrament. One of the marriage vows OP will have to make to marry in the Catholic church is the vow before God, the Church and all present at the sacrament that she WILL raise the children Catholic. She should not lie about this. She does not want to make this vow, and so this is the most basic conversation she has to have with her fiance. Because it sounds like he wants to make this vow.

As previously noted, this is not required, and it never was part of the vows. It is the Catholic party who must promises to do their best to raise Catholic children, and that is not in the vows either.

OP, says he has no intention of keeping that promise. A promise is a vow. And during the ceremony, the priest asks the couple (or the Catholic party) to answer this question: "Are you prepared to accept children lovingly from God and bring them up according to the law of Christ and his Church?”

The term “vows” as they concern Matrimony has a specific canonical meaning as a term of art, and they are exchanged between the parties (who, in the Roman Church, thus confect the sacrament between themselves with the priest as the witness).

The representation you cite is not a vow, either canonically or in form. It is an affirmation of intention. If it is left out, the marriage would still be canonically valid. The same would not be true absent vows, although the required form for those is quite minimal.