Rant: Tell Kids to Stop Bugging Professors for Internships

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a professor and regularly get emails from high school students who ask for research internships. They haven't finished high school, much less basic undergraduate courses in my field. I don't know who encourages this, but obviously those kids didn't think up this idea independently.

"Dear Professor X:

I am very interested in your work after reading [one of my obscure papers from a web search]. I would like to help you with research because I want to have a career [making a lot of money by doing something I know nothing about]."

This is insulting to their high school teachers, who have a lot to teach them.

Well, so many professors give this chances to kids of people in their social circles which leads others to think of it as something legit and worth trying for. Not everyone's mommy or daddy are well-connected or feel comfortable asking for favors.

Nepotism is everywhere. Despite being the child of two college professors, my kids have not benefited from that at all. But they DID watch lots of friends benefit from their family’s political and social connections. The sense of entitlement regarding access to professors with no educational relationship to your kid is mind boggling.

Sounds like both of you have done it all wrong. Your kids aren't even going to get a tuition benefit?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I would much prefer my kids just be teens, work a PT job, and do some activities, get great grades/SAT scores, but that no longer seems to be the key to getting into the top colleges.

And before anyone says, "Your kid doesn't need to get into a top college." OK, sure, then no other kids do, either. But, here we are..

College admissions is a nightmare. Blame the colleges and their insane games.

No, some kids need top colleges. Yours don't.

[Anonymous]

I used to worl as an administrator for an urban public library system. In the past few years we got an increasing amount of emails from high school students who would say that they had started a non-profit or were working on a project. Their plans would involve the library in some way because they wanted or needed a community partner. They never asked anyone beforehand to find out if these were possible or wanted by the library. Most things would not follow our policies and we could not accommodate them. If they wanted to, they could volunteer at the library, but they didn't want this. I don't know who was advising them, but you can't just assume an agency will partner with you just because you have an idea. That's how it is if you partner with anyone in the work world too, say, for grants. You have to see if there is even a need and desire for the relationship before you make your plans.

[Anonymous]

@14:43 what did they want the library to do for them?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would much prefer my kids just be teens, work a PT job, and do some activities, get great grades/SAT scores, but that no longer seems to be the key to getting into the top colleges.

And before anyone says, "Your kid doesn't need to get into a top college." OK, sure, then no other kids do, either. But, here we are..

College admissions is a nightmare. Blame the colleges and their insane games.

No, some kids need top colleges. Yours don't.

How do you know mine don't?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I blame the parents. Let the kids be kids. Tell them they don’t need to do research in HS to be successful in life. Don’t encourage them to harass professors. Bring back sanity - please.

It’s not the parents of current high school students who made elite college admissions a high stakes nightmare. That would be… well, there plenty of blame to go around, but USNWR and colleges themselves deserve a lot of the blame. Agree that the path to sanity starts with college admissions offices, who do have the power to pull out of USNWR and make the admissions process more fair and transparent, like it is in literally every other country.

You might think a UMC HS kid lifeguarding or working for Parks and Rec is better for their personal growth than working in a lab. And I don’t disagree. But, I have yet to see any evidence that T-whatever number you are gunning for college admissions offices have gotten that memo. Maybe if top colleges started valuing public facing work, highly motivated UMC HS students would do it.

Until then, completely agree. Your issue is with your schools admissions office.

+1.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think this thread makes it clear that among higher SES parents college is now often seen as a service and when my! own! babies! have skin in the game all reason goes out the window and there is no desire to see or understand how academia really works because the most important thing is to SERVE! MY! SPECIAL! CHILD!

But here's the thing: academics are not service providers. They are educators and scholars and experts. We set our own agenda for research, service, and teaching. The outcome is to advance their field and part of that is shaping minds, but providing 16 yo Dylan or Sophia from Chevy Chase a summer internship is not that.

I also think a lot of people are misunderstanding the difference between shadowing and interning or being a research assistant. The first being theoretically possible and a fair ask, the second being a long shot and not really appropriate for a high schooler unless the program is specifically designed for them, and the later being totally implausible for a number of reasons that no one here wants to hear.

Perhaps professors should tell their employers to stop caring about applicant's high school research?

If professors had any control over admissions policies, the whole process would be radically different. Sadly, we don't. However, I agree that it's easy enough to just send a form email (in my case, saying that I only take research assistants who are not current undergrads if they possess some specific specialized skills--so far, no one has emailed back to say they have those skills).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here is an example of a paid research internship set up specifically for high schoolers. Yes, this particular one is restricted to Baltimore City students. But these types of opportunities exist if you look for them, contrary to the belief of many posting on this string.
https://engineering.jhu.edu/outreach/ceo-programs/wise/

That looks like a wonderful program.
But what should white or Asian students do?

White or Asian parents are totally welcome to send their kids to Baltimore City public schools. I do! And there are definitely white and Asian kids in this program.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Luckily, not all professors are as closed-minded as OP. Some high school students ARE capable of producing publishable research. Just because you couldn't do it when you were young, doesn't others can't achieve it.

No they aren’t. They are capable of providing some of the relatively unskilled labor necessary to produce publishable research, but frankly those jobs would be better given to college first and second years. The only reason high schoolers might get those jobs is that they’re more likely to tolerate not getting paid. Which makes this whole situation a fun adventure into unpaid internships aka buy experience for your resume/college app.

I agree with OP that this whole concept is offensive and upsetting but I don’t think it’s the kids’ fault at all. No high schooler really understands how much they still have to learn and they’re just kids. Much better for parents and counsellors to encourage them to work as lifeguards or in public-facing roles. Now those are things that will develop the skills they need for their later careers — besides giving them the wherewithal to save.

My field requires years of training/experience before someone is qualified to conduct publishable research. Many people are capable of completing the training, but HS students and undergraduates are just not ready - or helpful. I can't trust any aspect of my work, even the busy work, to a student at that level. This is not because they're not smart, eager, and nice, or even because they're not deserving of encouragement, but because they literally don't have the skills yet, and I can't make anyone have those skills in the length of any internship. It's no one's fault that they're not prepared to participate, but a kid who thinks that their momentary expression of curiosity is a job qualification is a kid who is being massively disserved by the HS machine.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:ha! my son got a research position for this summer sending an email that didn't look very different! the only difference was the money angle - can't imagine this professor makes very good money doing academic research. the kids know that.

i think the money angle was a joke!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't know who encourages this

The college application process encourages this.

Exactly. I am pretty sure the students would rather spend the summer lifeguarding. I did. But they are being made to think if they don’t pursue this sort of “opportunity,” then they will never amount to anything.

Don’t hate the kids; hate the game the adults are forcing them to play.

Bingo. I can see how this would be a pain for professors. It's such an inappropriate expectation that the system has created.

Let's remember too that the students at a given college, especially undergrads, are likely paying to be there. Low-level research opportunities and work slots need at least be considered for the students inside the program. As a professor, it would be really inappropriate for me to hire a HS student for an opportunity that would then be closed off from one of my own undergrads.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:@14:43 what did they want the library to do for them?

They wanted to do things like have a multi-part program that included tutoring (we already had teen/peer after-school tutoring programs I'm place), give a presentation or class on something like finances or coding (we try and have professionals/vendors who come on and do presentations like this), etc. There are ways they can volunteer, such as to be a teen tutor, but they want credit for creating it. It's already created. It means they didn't even look at our website to see what we already offer. We already got many adults who want to give presentations and programs and we would vet them first. We didn't want someone giving inaccurate information. We tried to have people who had experience on whatever field. These kids would say things like they wanted to create a partnership with the library but I really doubt that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I did a research experience in a summer program in high school. It's a great way to build a pipeline of future scientists.

It's a shame that some professors, who have a cushy taxpayer funded jobs, are so selfish.
You should be creating more programs to expose more high schoolers to research, not just the ones whose parents prepped them into TJ and SMACS.

I am a prof at a private institution. Most higher ed institutions are private.

I had my salary cut during the pandemic.
My retirement contributions were stopped for two years.
I make under 80K a year, and that includes overloads, grant funding, and other extras that are not part of my salary.
I work my ass off. Even the summer, all 12 months.
Cushy, it is not.

18 million people got laid off during Covid. You kept your job. You probably got to work from home. You still have tenure or are on track for it. Quit crying for sympathy.

Why are you so angry, PP?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Luckily, not all professors are as closed-minded as OP. Some high school students ARE capable of producing publishable research. Just because you couldn't do it when you were young, doesn't others can't achieve it.

No they aren’t. They are capable of providing some of the relatively unskilled labor necessary to produce publishable research, but frankly those jobs would be better given to college first and second years. The only reason high schoolers might get those jobs is that they’re more likely to tolerate not getting paid. Which makes this whole situation a fun adventure into unpaid internships aka buy experience for your resume/college app.

I agree with OP that this whole concept is offensive and upsetting but I don’t think it’s the kids’ fault at all. No high schooler really understands how much they still have to learn and they’re just kids. Much better for parents and counsellors to encourage them to work as lifeguards or in public-facing roles. Now those are things that will develop the skills they need for their later careers — besides giving them the wherewithal to save.

My field requires years of training/experience before someone is qualified to conduct publishable research. Many people are capable of completing the training, but HS students and undergraduates are just not ready - or helpful. I can't trust any aspect of my work, even the busy work, to a student at that level. This is not because they're not smart, eager, and nice, or even because they're not deserving of encouragement, but because they literally don't have the skills yet, and I can't make anyone have those skills in the length of any internship. It's no one's fault that they're not prepared to participate, but a kid who thinks that their momentary expression of curiosity is a job qualification is a kid who is being massively disserved by the HS machine.

PP you’re responding to. You’re right, I should have said high school students AT BEST are capable of providing some of the relatively unskilled labor necessary to produce publishable research depending on the field. It’s insane that people legitimately seem to think that high school student have the skills and education to perform research; there’s a reason people go to college before embarking on PhDs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I did a research experience in a summer program in high school. It's a great way to build a pipeline of future scientists.

It's a shame that some professors, who have a cushy taxpayer funded jobs, are so selfish.
You should be creating more programs to expose more high schoolers to research, not just the ones whose parents prepped them into TJ and SMACS.

I am a prof at a private institution. Most higher ed institutions are private.

I had my salary cut during the pandemic.
My retirement contributions were stopped for two years.
I make under 80K a year, and that includes overloads, grant funding, and other extras that are not part of my salary.
I work my ass off. Even the summer, all 12 months.
Cushy, it is not.
If I were not married to a high earner I could not do my job and support my family.

My job is helping to advance the education and lives of college students with fewer resources (which is the demographic of most of my students). My primary obligation is to give THEM opportunities. And though I don't, my colleagues do have opportunities for younger under-resourced kids in the pipeline. But there is a process, and it is not emailing faculty cold.

I don't know why you are not hearing it: these programs exist. But they are not accessible via cold emails. Here are some more high profile ones: https://blog.collegevine.com/research-opportunities-high-school

The cold call as you call it often works for high school students. If you don’t know you don’t know.