Boundaries assessment update 2023

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

The choice to attend Carson vs. Franklin for AAP kids seems to be based on what their friends are doing... at least from what I have seen. If their friends from Navy AAP are zoned for Carson and headed there for MS, they want to stay with those friends. This is one of the issues with AAP being kept so separate from Gen Ed at Navy. The kids in AAP end up mostly only being friends with other AAP kids and don't want to separate from them for MS. If AAP and Gen Ed interacted more, kids would have friends headed to both Carson and Franklin and might be more likely to opt for Franklin.

Interesting. I'm PP who mentioned the large cohort from a Franklin assigned zone that goes to Carson for AAP. I was not thinking of Navy when I posted that. I was thinking of Oak Hill. This supports my argument even more. Put an AAP center at Franklin. With Oak Hill and Navy, there are certainly enough to support a rigorous program.

You are absolute correct. If Cooper, Johnson, Longfellow, and South County MS can each function as AAP centers that draw only from their base boundaries, that obviously could be the case for Franklin as well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Where did I say anything about balancing economic disparities? Taking three high schools in isolation is more of the same tweaking, we need an overall county plan. I am well aware of how close some schools are to each other in many parts of the county and this adds complexity.

Then start with three schools at the edge of the county and go from there. You will quickly see why it would not work.

Have you ever been through a boundary study? I've been through three--different levels. There are so many factors to consider for just one school. I am blessed to live where the schools are all close, but that does not apply to everyone. To me, that should be the first consideration--but, because of the locations of schools, that quickly gets discarded.

And, one thing I learned from boundary studies: almost everyone wants their school to stay the same. Even those whose kids are in schools that might be considered "less desirable."

I don’t think your last paragraph holds true across the board. With the situations you experienced there may have been other factors such as proximity at play. For example, people wanted to stay at Chantilly rather than move to higher rated Oakton back in 2008 because Oakton was a hike.

In other situations, especially when split feeders are involved, people may jump to get an “upgrade.” In those situations it’s really ugly when FCPS puts neighborhoods against each other to get reassigned. And it’s even worse when you consider that for over a decade FCPS has only changed HS boundaries when it involved moving kids to wealthier schools like Woodson and Langley. If it would have involved sending kids to poorer schools like Lewis and Mount Vernon they built additions instead. That’s the type of blatantly political crap that makes people feel the system is broken.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Simple answer is LLIV at all elementary schools (almost there already) remove AAP in middle schools.

LLIV in all middle schools should exist. Just eliminate the centers.

I’ve never understood why they allowed Carson to become such an AAP center behemoth when other middle schools like Franklin could have AAP.

Franklin has had a LLIV AAP program for about 10 years.

I'm new to the area zoned to Carson and I don't understand why if Franklin has AAP, students are allowed to go to Carson? I got so confused by seeing listings that said things like "X elementary, Franklin or Carson MS, Chantilly HS". We ended up buying a house that is Carson/Oakton and I also don't understand why we are zoned to a HS 30 minutes away when Chantilly and South Lakes are both 10 minutes away.

1. Because Chantilly is overcrowded and has been for years.
2. If all of your neighborhood (which I assume must be Franklin Farm) were assigned to South Lakes, then South Lakes would be overcrowded.

If South Lakes is underenrolled, there are neighborhoods smaller than Franklin Farm and slightly closer to Reston that would make sense to rezone. Those neighborhoods could then be Crossfield-Carson-South Lakes. Which I think is a pyramid that already exists?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Simple answer is LLIV at all elementary schools (almost there already) remove AAP in middle schools.

LLIV in all middle schools should exist. Just eliminate the centers.

I’ve never understood why they allowed Carson to become such an AAP center behemoth when other middle schools like Franklin could have AAP.

Franklin has had a LLIV AAP program for about 10 years.

I'm new to the area zoned to Carson and I don't understand why if Franklin has AAP, students are allowed to go to Carson? I got so confused by seeing listings that said things like "X elementary, Franklin or Carson MS, Chantilly HS". We ended up buying a house that is Carson/Oakton and I also don't understand why we are zoned to a HS 30 minutes away when Chantilly and South Lakes are both 10 minutes away.

1. Because Chantilly is overcrowded and has been for years.
2. If all of your neighborhood (which I assume must be Franklin Farm) were assigned to South Lakes, then South Lakes would be overcrowded.

If South Lakes is underenrolled, there are neighborhoods smaller than Franklin Farm and slightly closer to Reston that would make sense to rezone. Those neighborhoods could then be Crossfield-Carson-South Lakes. Which I think is a pyramid that already exists?

I don't think South Lakes is underenrolled.

[Anonymous]

They won't move those Langley students to HHS- but not because of enrollment capacity. HHS is at 2300 students- with the recent renovation- capacity is 2500.
Move some from Langley to Herndon. Mclean to Langley. Could get 3 schools to similar enrollment and ease overcrowding at McLean and fill the under capacity at Langley- by #s- make sense.
Will never happen.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm making an offer on a house in the extreme north-western part of Langley HS district, near Seneca road. It's in the 7-1 grid of https://www.fcps.edu/sites/default/files/medi...choolBoundaries.pdf. My son is in 1st grade currently, would prefer Cooper/Langley as schools.

Given where things are at, is there any intent by FCPS to move that part of Langley into Herndon HS, has that been proposed or discussed? I saw a comments to that in this thread, wondering if this was ever really entertained.

I mean, yes, sending the far northwestern part of the county back to Herndon HS boundaries is a thing that could happen. A PP alluded to it earlier in the thread, and then the Langley boundaries would absorb one of the ES in the McLean pyramid. But Herndon HS doesn’t have the capacity right now to absorb a whole additional ES into its boundaries. The MS seems to have more “room” because the capacity dashboard shows it with a number of modular/temporary classrooms, but those are unpopular and not meant to be long term solutions. And building the mythical western HS that could change boundaries at multiple schools is at least 10 years away from completion and probably longer than that. So if you have a current 1st/rising 2nd grader I wouldn’t worry too much about it at all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
They won't move those Langley students to HHS- but not because of enrollment capacity. HHS is at 2300 students- with the recent renovation- capacity is 2500.
Move some from Langley to Herndon. Mclean to Langley. Could get 3 schools to similar enrollment and ease overcrowding at McLean and fill the under capacity at Langley- by #s- make sense.
Will never happen.

Anonymous wrote:

It’s time to build the overdue addition to undersized McLean and stop the ad hoc boundary adjustments. No school comes out better when FCPS just hacks away at the boundaries piece by piece.

[Anonymous]

It’s time to build the overdue addition to undersized McLean and stop these ad hoc boundary adjustments. No school comes out better when FCPS just hacks away at the boundaries piece by piece.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Sounds like it will be looked at this summer as she brought it up again in Glasgow MS meeting yesterday noting system-wide boundaries haven't been looked at in 37 years.

I'm curious to know how segregation-era housing policies were still leaving their mark in the 1980s the last time boundaries were considered. If even now in 2023 there is such fervor against SES integration, I imagine community input in the 80s played a role in creating the disparities we still see.

The changes in demographics and boundaries that resulted in the wide disparities among schools that now exist generally happened after the last county-wide redistricting in the mid-80s.

+1

I don't understand why people think redistricting will help educating kids. It just moves them around. The answer it to take the kid where he is and teach him. And, yes, it can be done. But, it takes work and it is not resolved by "equity" talk. It is resolved by instruction.

Pretty sure most people are aware of that, and the boundary conversation isn't about attempting to help the ESOL kids by moving them. We know shifting them around won't solve anything for their needs.

The issue pertains to either normal or advanced kids whose needs are increasingly difficult to meet at schools where the majority of kids are below grade level. Schools where enrichment opportunities and clubs are scarce due to low levels of parental involvement and volunteering. Not blaming the parents there; they're likely working double-shift service and retail jobs. Not blaming FARMs kids either; they don't have the privilege of savvy parents pushing them into activities like Science Olympiad.

But nonetheless the state of affairs creates a dearth of opportunity in some regions. It's the middle-of-the-road kids that are left in a situation that is too under-subscribed.

The worst schools are on the rt 1 corridor. What neighboring schools have decent enrichment programs? None in the West Potomac Pyramid have anything, the same goes for most in the Hayfield pyramid. Are you going to bus kids from Janna Lee to a school in the West Springfield pyramid because that school offers science olympiad?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sounds like it will be looked at this summer as she brought it up again in Glasgow MS meeting yesterday noting system-wide boundaries haven't been looked at in 37 years.

I'm curious to know how segregation-era housing policies were still leaving their mark in the 1980s the last time boundaries were considered. If even now in 2023 there is such fervor against SES integration, I imagine community input in the 80s played a role in creating the disparities we still see.

The changes in demographics and boundaries that resulted in the wide disparities among schools that now exist generally happened after the last county-wide redistricting in the mid-80s.

+1

I don't understand why people think redistricting will help educating kids. It just moves them around. The answer it to take the kid where he is and teach him. And, yes, it can be done. But, it takes work and it is not resolved by "equity" talk. It is resolved by instruction.

Pretty sure most people are aware of that, and the boundary conversation isn't about attempting to help the ESOL kids by moving them. We know shifting them around won't solve anything for their needs.

The issue pertains to either normal or advanced kids whose needs are increasingly difficult to meet at schools where the majority of kids are below grade level. Schools where enrichment opportunities and clubs are scarce due to low levels of parental involvement and volunteering. Not blaming the parents there; they're likely working double-shift service and retail jobs. Not blaming FARMs kids either; they don't have the privilege of savvy parents pushing them into activities like Science Olympiad.

But nonetheless the state of affairs creates a dearth of opportunity in some regions. It's the middle-of-the-road kids that are left in a situation that is too under-subscribed.

The worst schools are on the rt 1 corridor. What neighboring schools have decent enrichment programs? None in the West Potomac Pyramid have anything, the same goes for most in the Hayfield pyramid. Are you going to bus kids from Janna Lee to a school in the West Springfield pyramid because that school offers science olympiad?

DP. The thing that makes me uneasy is the subtext that we need to “level the playing field” by whatever means necessary and that some really would just as comfortable if we did that by taking away opportunities for kids at some schools as by creating opportunities for kids at other schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sounds like it will be looked at this summer as she brought it up again in Glasgow MS meeting yesterday noting system-wide boundaries haven't been looked at in 37 years.

I'm curious to know how segregation-era housing policies were still leaving their mark in the 1980s the last time boundaries were considered. If even now in 2023 there is such fervor against SES integration, I imagine community input in the 80s played a role in creating the disparities we still see.

The changes in demographics and boundaries that resulted in the wide disparities among schools that now exist generally happened after the last county-wide redistricting in the mid-80s.

+1

I don't understand why people think redistricting will help educating kids. It just moves them around. The answer it to take the kid where he is and teach him. And, yes, it can be done. But, it takes work and it is not resolved by "equity" talk. It is resolved by instruction.

Pretty sure most people are aware of that, and the boundary conversation isn't about attempting to help the ESOL kids by moving them. We know shifting them around won't solve anything for their needs.

The issue pertains to either normal or advanced kids whose needs are increasingly difficult to meet at schools where the majority of kids are below grade level. Schools where enrichment opportunities and clubs are scarce due to low levels of parental involvement and volunteering. Not blaming the parents there; they're likely working double-shift service and retail jobs. Not blaming FARMs kids either; they don't have the privilege of savvy parents pushing them into activities like Science Olympiad.

But nonetheless the state of affairs creates a dearth of opportunity in some regions. It's the middle-of-the-road kids that are left in a situation that is too under-subscribed.

The worst schools are on the rt 1 corridor. What neighboring schools have decent enrichment programs? None in the West Potomac Pyramid have anything, the same goes for most in the Hayfield pyramid. Are you going to bus kids from Janna Lee to a school in the West Springfield pyramid because that school offers science olympiad?

DP. The thing that makes me uneasy is the subtext that we need to “level the playing field” by whatever means necessary and that some really would just as comfortable if we did that by taking away opportunities for kids at some schools as by creating opportunities for kids at other schools.

Been saying this for years-two ways to close the gap:
1. Push down the top by lowering standards
2. Raise the bottom by good, direct instruction

Which is easier?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

The choice to attend Carson vs. Franklin for AAP kids seems to be based on what their friends are doing... at least from what I have seen. If their friends from Navy AAP are zoned for Carson and headed there for MS, they want to stay with those friends. This is one of the issues with AAP being kept so separate from Gen Ed at Navy. The kids in AAP end up mostly only being friends with other AAP kids and don't want to separate from them for MS. If AAP and Gen Ed interacted more, kids would have friends headed to both Carson and Franklin and might be more likely to opt for Franklin.

Interesting. I'm PP who mentioned the large cohort from a Franklin assigned zone that goes to Carson for AAP. I was not thinking of Navy when I posted that. I was thinking of Oak Hill. This supports my argument even more. Put an AAP center at Franklin. With Oak Hill and Navy, there are certainly enough to support a rigorous program.

Franklin should become the same kind of center that Cooper became. The students zoned for that school only have the option to go to that school. Doing so would balance the numbers at Carson and Franklin a lot better.

Having sent kids to both AAP programs, at both RCMS and FMS, I think FMS's program, especially in seventh grade, is much stronger. At least when my kid went through the AAP program there, the same US History, science, and English teachers had been there for a very long time and they were stellar teachers who all worked together to better the experience for the kids. If those same teachers are still there, they could definitely spearhead further developing that program to accommodate an additional couple hundred kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

The choice to attend Carson vs. Franklin for AAP kids seems to be based on what their friends are doing... at least from what I have seen. If their friends from Navy AAP are zoned for Carson and headed there for MS, they want to stay with those friends. This is one of the issues with AAP being kept so separate from Gen Ed at Navy. The kids in AAP end up mostly only being friends with other AAP kids and don't want to separate from them for MS. If AAP and Gen Ed interacted more, kids would have friends headed to both Carson and Franklin and might be more likely to opt for Franklin.

Interesting. I'm PP who mentioned the large cohort from a Franklin assigned zone that goes to Carson for AAP. I was not thinking of Navy when I posted that. I was thinking of Oak Hill. This supports my argument even more. Put an AAP center at Franklin. With Oak Hill and Navy, there are certainly enough to support a rigorous program.

Franklin should become the same kind of center that Cooper became. The students zoned for that school only have the option to go to that school. Doing so would balance the numbers at Carson and Franklin a lot better.

Having sent kids to both AAP programs, at both RCMS and FMS, I think FMS's program, especially in seventh grade, is much stronger. At least when my kid went through the AAP program there, the same US History, science, and English teachers had been there for a very long time and they were stellar teachers who all worked together to better the experience for the kids. If those same teachers are still there, they could definitely spearhead further developing that program to accommodate an additional couple hundred kids.

Makes perfect sense.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Instead of making this yet another IB vs. AP debate (they are both fine), let's get back to original topic. Yes making some IB schools AP would help. SB won't do jack because they don't want to stir up the pot. Parents-many in this forum-will freak out with boundary changes if it doesn't go their way. So what is the solution?

Distribute affordable housing across the county instead on concentrating it. Unless that happens, boundary adjustment will always be bitter and career ending for politicians

A politician who truly believes that a boundary adjustment is the right thing to do for the sake of equity, fiscal responsibility and any other good reason should have character enough to go through with it anyway.

The school board is supposed to exist for proper education and responsible use of facilities/resources, not as a stepping stone that ambitious politicians use to get to higher office.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Instead of making this yet another IB vs. AP debate (they are both fine), let's get back to original topic. Yes making some IB schools AP would help. SB won't do jack because they don't want to stir up the pot. Parents-many in this forum-will freak out with boundary changes if it doesn't go their way. So what is the solution?

Distribute affordable housing across the county instead on concentrating it. Unless that happens, boundary adjustment will always be bitter and career ending for politicians

A politician who truly believes that a boundary adjustment is the right thing to do for the sake of equity, fiscal responsibility and any other good reason should have character enough to go through with it anyway.

The school board is supposed to exist for proper education and responsible use of facilities/resources, not as a stepping stone that ambitious politicians use to get to higher office.

But, just because the politician believes that a "boundary adjustment' is the "right thing to do" doesn't mean that it IS the right thing to do.

You throw out that it should be done for the sake of "equity." How is this going to achieve "equity?" What do you think it will do?

1. The location of schools is not adaptable to redistribution. Too many poor schools are located close together and too many affluent schools are very close together.

2. So, you redistribute and get "equity" of demographics. What does this accomplish for the kids?

Maybe, just maybe, a politician will step forward who thinks we should educate our kids. To me, that would be "equity."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Instead of making this yet another IB vs. AP debate (they are both fine), let's get back to original topic. Yes making some IB schools AP would help. SB won't do jack because they don't want to stir up the pot. Parents-many in this forum-will freak out with boundary changes if it doesn't go their way. So what is the solution?

Distribute affordable housing across the county instead on concentrating it. Unless that happens, boundary adjustment will always be bitter and career ending for politicians

A politician who truly believes that a boundary adjustment is the right thing to do for the sake of equity, fiscal responsibility and any other good reason should have character enough to go through with it anyway.

The school board is supposed to exist for proper education and responsible use of facilities/resources, not as a stepping stone that ambitious politicians use to get to higher office.

You must be living in a different county with different politicians and School Board members than the rest of us.