Waitlisted at TJ - now what?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:I don’t understand people saying that 8th grade Algebra 1 kids don’t belong at TJ and they would get eaten by the TJ Math dept. When they made that change wouldn’t that have been taken into consideration? Maybe they believed those kids also can succeed at TJ and can be admitted.

The kids who get eaten alive by the TJ Math department are NOT the ones who enter in Geometry after Alg 1 in 8th. Indeed, those students end up being some of the strongest in math from a foundational perspective because they took the entire high school math sequence with and among TJ students and faculty.

The kids who get eaten alive are the ones who are artificially advanced in Math beyond their actual level of comprehension and ability. These are the kids whose parents secretly send them to additional private tutoring in order to keep up.

Any actual evidence for this, or are you just talking out of your a**?

In FCPS, the kids who take Algebra I in 8th are not strong enough in math to have qualified in 7th, or they opted to take the easier, softer class. Neither of these suggest much success at a school like TJ.

+1. Not sure why PP felt a need to make up that stat, but my TJ kid's experience is the complete opposite. The kids that go Ivy or MIT (especially MIT) all show up in Algebra 2 or even typically higher. I do not believe that there has ever been a TJ grad that went to MIT that started TJ and had to take Geometry.

You did logic wrong here.

There are plenty of kids at TJ who enter in Alg2, PreCalc, and Calc who absolutely belong there and are fully prepared. It shouldn't surprise anyone that a lot of these are the ones who do well in the college admissions process because they are genuinely bright enough to be as advanced as they are.

The kids I'm talking about are the ones who are advanced beyond their capability because their parents believe that they must do so in order to appear as one of the genuinely bright and talented kids. These are among the students who struggle the most at TJ - they struggle FAR more than the students who enter in Geometry.

Not anymore. That's part of the problem with the new process. In my school's 8th grade Algebra II class, the one kid who got accepted to TJ was the one over accelerated and in need of extensive tutoring to keep up. The kids who sailed through the course got waitlisted.

Otherwise, yes, there are a small handful of kids accelerated beyond their ability. There is no way to detect those kids other than perhaps a holistic process using teacher recommendations, achievements, and other metrics to see which kids earning As in advanced math courses don't seem to have achievements or teacher impressions matching their acceleration level. It would be entirely possible to fill TJ at least twice over with kids who are appropriately accelerated into 7th grade Algebra or higher. There's no need to dip down into the pool of objectively less talented kids unless the kid displays something remarkable in some other avenue.

Only in Bizarro World would someone suggest that a kid who has not demonstrated any particular math ability is generally a better math prospect than the kid who earned an A in 7th grade Honors Algebra I and another A in the first half of Honors Geometry.

Approximately 75% of the Class of 2025 entered at least in Algebra II. And who knows? Maybe the others DID demonstrate something else remarkable. Without access to the applications, you really have no way of knowing. But my guess is that your idea of what constitutes "remarkable" is a lot more narrow than it should be.

How could they demonstrate something remarkable in such a sparse application, especially when achievements and teacher recommendations are not being considered? If you want to find the 8th grade Algebra I kids who are true gems, ask the teachers. They know which kids are special. Likewise, if you want to find the over accelerated kids with stats that suggest a much higher aptitude than they have, ask the teachers. It's a shame that the teachers have no input into the process.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:
You are missing something here. There are no test scores here. Just grades, essay and portrait sheet. All these kids know each others grades and unweighted GPA etc. Yes, they don't know how anyone's essays are graded. All they could know who would have gotten in if the grades were important and teacher input was actually sought. Of course the first thing I told is grades weren't really important as its only 1/3rd of total weight and rest of the 2/3rd weight goes to essays and may be those kids would have written amazingly well. His said was their english grades weren't better well, grades may not translate to essays. His argument was kids with perfect GPA, participating in lots of STEM activities at school, taking STEM exclusive electives didn't get in where kids with barely enough GPA, definitely not poor, no participation in STEM activities, no STEM electives etc were able to get in. So, we had this argument and it was difficult for me to convince him that race wasn't factor. So, his final take was if it weren't a race, it must be a lottery as he sees no other explanation unless the essays were stellar to overcome the GPA deficit.

If you have kids, you know pretty well teenage kids think they know better and are easily influenced by their friends. They don't pay that much attention to our/parents explanations, though we constantly try. Thats what bothered me when he is talking about race which he never did until now. I hope FCPS comes clear out of this and if not, kids will assume whatever they want to assume.

End of the day, TJ is definitely not going to what it used to be. Its no longer a destination for top STEM focussed students. So many kids with genuine interest in STEM couldn't get in and kids who had barely anything to show for including GPA got in. At least base schools are going to be better and I am sure my kid will do fine at base school after overcoming his disappointment and all the surprises about who got in and who didn't.

Where did you see 1/3 grade and 2/3 essays? I thought the selection criteria was a "black box" (proprietary) and not published

Its not as much of a black box as you think it is. There was a leaked internal document I found in these forums a while back. I think you find this at the web page where TJ coalition tried to sue FCPS - you/I may not like the coalition, but this document was real and came from FCPS internal discussions. Just google searched 'leaked TJ docs' and found the TJHSST Scoring Rubric’ (Exhibit B) under here https://defendinged.org/incidents/tjpapers/. You are free to dismiss and claim everything you found under the page is made up, but please note that these docs were submitted to the judge as well. This says 300 points for GPA, 300 points for essay, 300 points for portrait sheet and 300 points for other factors.

Did I read this site correctly that “economically disadvantaged” is worth 100 points while having an IEP or being ESOL is only worth 50? How is that logical when anyone can say yes to the meals questions this year?

This really is the million-dollar question. Someone needs to ask this in a public setting at a school board meeting.

For parents considering an appeal, if your child has an IEP, is ESOL, and/or is actually low income I would absolutely lay this argument out in the written appeal.

Not sure why this didn't get more traction but it's obvious what has occured. The traditional feeders have had anywhere from a 35-50% drop in admits. It makes 0 sense to be more concerned with SES/geographic diversity than who is actually the most talented in STEM.

School Admits 2024/2025

Carson 82/42
Longfellow 57/28
Cooper 33/20
Rocky Run 32/24
Frost 20/<15
Lake Braddock 17/12

Source

http://www.fcag.org/tjstatistics.shtml

Time for another lawsuit.

And the 2023 school board election cannot come soon enough.

Those are the 100 Asians.

If you believe there are only 100 angry Asians - after the exposure of the FFX school board’s blatant racism against Asians - well you are in for a big surprise.

[Anonymous]

Is 2026 the year that TJ drops to #2?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Is 2026 the year that TJ drops to #2?

Wasn't it even below #2 a few years ago? You do realize these rankings are utter nonsense?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
You are missing something here. There are no test scores here. Just grades, essay and portrait sheet. All these kids know each others grades and unweighted GPA etc. Yes, they don't know how anyone's essays are graded. All they could know who would have gotten in if the grades were important and teacher input was actually sought. Of course the first thing I told is grades weren't really important as its only 1/3rd of total weight and rest of the 2/3rd weight goes to essays and may be those kids would have written amazingly well. His said was their english grades weren't better well, grades may not translate to essays. His argument was kids with perfect GPA, participating in lots of STEM activities at school, taking STEM exclusive electives didn't get in where kids with barely enough GPA, definitely not poor, no participation in STEM activities, no STEM electives etc were able to get in. So, we had this argument and it was difficult for me to convince him that race wasn't factor. So, his final take was if it weren't a race, it must be a lottery as he sees no other explanation unless the essays were stellar to overcome the GPA deficit.

If you have kids, you know pretty well teenage kids think they know better and are easily influenced by their friends. They don't pay that much attention to our/parents explanations, though we constantly try. Thats what bothered me when he is talking about race which he never did until now. I hope FCPS comes clear out of this and if not, kids will assume whatever they want to assume.

End of the day, TJ is definitely not going to what it used to be. Its no longer a destination for top STEM focussed students. So many kids with genuine interest in STEM couldn't get in and kids who had barely anything to show for including GPA got in. At least base schools are going to be better and I am sure my kid will do fine at base school after overcoming his disappointment and all the surprises about who got in and who didn't.

Where did you see 1/3 grade and 2/3 essays? I thought the selection criteria was a "black box" (proprietary) and not published

Its not as much of a black box as you think it is. There was a leaked internal document I found in these forums a while back. I think you find this at the web page where TJ coalition tried to sue FCPS - you/I may not like the coalition, but this document was real and came from FCPS internal discussions. Just google searched 'leaked TJ docs' and found the TJHSST Scoring Rubric’ (Exhibit B) under here https://defendinged.org/incidents/tjpapers/. You are free to dismiss and claim everything you found under the page is made up, but please note that these docs were submitted to the judge as well. This says 300 points for GPA, 300 points for essay, 300 points for portrait sheet and 300 points for other factors.

Did I read this site correctly that “economically disadvantaged” is worth 100 points while having an IEP or being ESOL is only worth 50? How is that logical when anyone can say yes to the meals questions this year?

This really is the million-dollar question. Someone needs to ask this in a public setting at a school board meeting.

For parents considering an appeal, if your child has an IEP, is ESOL, and/or is actually low income I would absolutely lay this argument out in the written appeal.

Not sure why this didn't get more traction but it's obvious what has occured. The traditional feeders have had anywhere from a 35-50% drop in admits. It makes 0 sense to be more concerned with SES/geographic diversity than who is actually the most talented in STEM.

School Admits 2024/2025

Carson 82/42
Longfellow 57/28
Cooper 33/20
Rocky Run 32/24
Frost 20/<15
Lake Braddock 17/12

Source

http://www.fcag.org/tjstatistics.shtml

Time for another lawsuit.

And the 2023 school board election cannot come soon enough.

Those are the 100 Asians.

If you believe there are only 100 angry Asians - after the exposure of the FFX school board’s blatant racism against Asians - well you are in for a big surprise.

I thought Asians accounted for over 50% of all students admitted?

[Anonymous]

US News ranking is still #1. The real ranking on academic, I guess is around #50, if not lower. It cannot compete with the first tier high schools any more.

[Anonymous]

Congratulations to the SB for successfully destroying TJ. Probably nobody can really benefit from it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Did people say that if someone is not eligible for free lunch but answered yes, the application will be rejected? Was it handled this way?

Maybe that’s why so many feeder kids didn’t get in. They lied.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Congratulations to the SB for successfully destroying TJ. Probably nobody can really benefit from it.

This is the same format of melodramatic argument my preschooler makes when they don't get their way.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:C4TJ did the right thing. The school board is hurting the community. Otherwise, the school board won't fail with the law-suite. TJ was merit-based and that's why students are willing to go to TJ. Making TJ worse doesn't help anybody.

DP. I agree.

I am not part of C4TJ, but they did the right thing here.

At a minimum, C4TJ exposed the current school board for the radical extremists they truly are. And they did using only the SB’s own racist and radical email to each other.

The current school board members are the villains here. That should be obvious to all by now.

Actually this statement right here just exposes you for the radical extremists that you truly are. Too late to try to sound "reasonable". You C4TJ people and supporters are on the crazy train.

nah it's crazy to take a governors school designed for the best and water it down for the sake of geographic diversity

C4TJ folks act like theirs is the only ONE TRUE DEFINITION OF MERIT, everything else is political pandering. There's no sense trying to have a reasoned discussion with them, it's their way or the highway.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Did people say that if someone is not eligible for free lunch but answered yes, the application will be rejected? Was it handled this way?

We are all waiting for this answer. Maybe bug the admission committee enough and they will answer? This information should be public right?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Did people say that if someone is not eligible for free lunch but answered yes, the application will be rejected? Was it handled this way?

We are all waiting for this answer. Maybe bug the admission committee enough and they will answer? This information should be public right?

Plenty of people called/emailed when the application was open and they were confused about the answer.

Submit a FOIA request.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:C4TJ did the right thing. The school board is hurting the community. Otherwise, the school board won't fail with the law-suite. TJ was merit-based and that's why students are willing to go to TJ. Making TJ worse doesn't help anybody.

DP. I agree.

I am not part of C4TJ, but they did the right thing here.

At a minimum, C4TJ exposed the current school board for the radical extremists they truly are. And they did using only the SB’s own racist and radical email to each other.

The current school board members are the villains here. That should be obvious to all by now.

Actually this statement right here just exposes you for the radical extremists that you truly are. Too late to try to sound "reasonable". You C4TJ people and supporters are on the crazy train.

nah it's crazy to take a governors school designed for the best and water it down for the sake of geographic diversity

C4TJ folks act like theirs is the only ONE TRUE DEFINITION OF MERIT, everything else is political pandering. There's no sense trying to have a reasoned discussion with them, it's their way or the highway.

No - the question is not about differing conceptions of merit. The charter of a Governor's School is as follows: "The Virginia Governor's School Program has been designed to assist divisions as they meet the needs of a small population of students whose learning levels are remarkably different from their age-level peers. The foundation of the Virginia Governor's School Program centers on best practices in the field of gifted education and the presentation of advanced content to able learners."

https://www.doe.virginia.gov/instruction/governors_school_programs/

This makes it clear that the TJ student body should *not* be shaped to be a cross-section of the FCPS student body as a whole, but rather should be composed of the students who are most advanced in STEM. The current admissions process has not been designed to identify the small population with remarkably different learning levels. One can argue that this population is not the most meritorious, but it is the population which a Governor's School is designed to serve. Unless the governor's School charter is revised, TJ's new admissions process is failing to meet its mission. It will eventually be overturned by the state Department of Education. Unfortunately, by then it will be too late for the current class of applicants.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t understand people saying that 8th grade Algebra 1 kids don’t belong at TJ and they would get eaten by the TJ Math dept. When they made that change wouldn’t that have been taken into consideration? Maybe they believed those kids also can succeed at TJ and can be admitted.

The kids who get eaten alive by the TJ Math department are NOT the ones who enter in Geometry after Alg 1 in 8th. Indeed, those students end up being some of the strongest in math from a foundational perspective because they took the entire high school math sequence with and among TJ students and faculty.

The kids who get eaten alive are the ones who are artificially advanced in Math beyond their actual level of comprehension and ability. These are the kids whose parents secretly send them to additional private tutoring in order to keep up.

Any actual evidence for this, or are you just talking out of your a**?

In FCPS, the kids who take Algebra I in 8th are not strong enough in math to have qualified in 7th, or they opted to take the easier, softer class. Neither of these suggest much success at a school like TJ.

+1. Not sure why PP felt a need to make up that stat, but my TJ kid's experience is the complete opposite. The kids that go Ivy or MIT (especially MIT) all show up in Algebra 2 or even typically higher. I do not believe that there has ever been a TJ grad that went to MIT that started TJ and had to take Geometry.

You did logic wrong here.

There are plenty of kids at TJ who enter in Alg2, PreCalc, and Calc who absolutely belong there and are fully prepared. It shouldn't surprise anyone that a lot of these are the ones who do well in the college admissions process because they are genuinely bright enough to be as advanced as they are.

The kids I'm talking about are the ones who are advanced beyond their capability because their parents believe that they must do so in order to appear as one of the genuinely bright and talented kids. These are among the students who struggle the most at TJ - they struggle FAR more than the students who enter in Geometry.

Not anymore. That's part of the problem with the new process. In my school's 8th grade Algebra II class, the one kid who got accepted to TJ was the one over accelerated and in need of extensive tutoring to keep up. The kids who sailed through the course got waitlisted.

Otherwise, yes, there are a small handful of kids accelerated beyond their ability. There is no way to detect those kids other than perhaps a holistic process using teacher recommendations, achievements, and other metrics to see which kids earning As in advanced math courses don't seem to have achievements or teacher impressions matching their acceleration level. It would be entirely possible to fill TJ at least twice over with kids who are appropriately accelerated into 7th grade Algebra or higher. There's no need to dip down into the pool of objectively less talented kids unless the kid displays something remarkable in some other avenue.

Only in Bizarro World would someone suggest that a kid who has not demonstrated any particular math ability is generally a better math prospect than the kid who earned an A in 7th grade Honors Algebra I and another A in the first half of Honors Geometry.

Approximately 75% of the Class of 2025 entered at least in Algebra II. And who knows? Maybe the others DID demonstrate something else remarkable. Without access to the applications, you really have no way of knowing. But my guess is that your idea of what constitutes "remarkable" is a lot more narrow than it should be.

How could they demonstrate something remarkable in such a sparse application, especially when achievements and teacher recommendations are not being considered? If you want to find the 8th grade Algebra I kids who are true gems, ask the teachers. They know which kids are special. Likewise, if you want to find the over accelerated kids with stats that suggest a much higher aptitude than they have, ask the teachers. It's a shame that the teachers have no input into the process.

PP and I agree with you wholeheartedly on this. I'm probably the loudest pro-reform person on these boards and I believe strongly that a reimagined teacher recommendation form that allows them to compare students to one another would be extremely valuable to the admissions team - especially in an environment where there are a limited number of allocated seats at each school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Congratulations to the SB for successfully destroying TJ. Probably nobody can really benefit from it.

This is the same format of melodramatic argument my preschooler makes when they don't get their way.

Please don't insult preschoolers.