Can someone explain how brackets are determined - this can't be the right way to do it.

[Anonymous]

My kid plays mostly in Open and sometimes National. They lose about 50% of their games. She has a friend who plays primarily in American or Liberty? and they win most of their games. This weekend at the CHRVA tournament, we were ranked far below the team that wins more but plays at a lower competition level. So the lower-competition team was in a higher bracket with playoffs etc and we were at the bottom of the brackets with no playoff options.

It seems like Volleyball has enough players and tournaments to address this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My kid plays mostly in Open and sometimes National. They lose about 50% of their games. She has a friend who plays primarily in American or Liberty? and they win most of their games. This weekend at the CHRVA tournament, we were ranked far below the team that wins more but plays at a lower competition level. So the lower-competition team was in a higher bracket with playoffs etc and we were at the bottom of the brackets with no playoff options.

It seems like Volleyball has enough players and tournaments to address this.

I believe AES ranking is used:
https://www.advancedeventsystems.com/rankings/aes

[Anonymous]

winning 100% in Liberty feels good, but winning 50% in Open is usually the better path if your kid’s aiming high and wants to play in high school or potentially beyond

[Anonymous]

I will answer the question in the thread topic first. The brackets are determined by the results in the pool play. Since you have a player in a high-level team, you are probably familiar with how pool and bracket play works, but I will leave a couple of links here in case others need them:
https://volleymontgomery.wordpress.com/2026/01/02/pool-play-in-tournaments/
https://volleymontgomery.wordpress.com/2026/01/10/bracket-play-in-tournaments/

But I have the feeling that you are trying to understand how teams are spread across divisions, rather than how the brackets work. And that's a different story because clubs are allowed to sign up for any division they think their teams are ready for. Some teams try to play at their level, some play up, and some are sandbagging the lower level divisions to take home some hardware. It appears that your team plays at their level or a bit up. That's a better approach in the long-term because the teams develop better in a competitive environment. I agree that it's nicer when you wipe the floor with your opponents and take home the medals, but that's not where your team gets challenged and learns to play.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I will answer the question in the thread topic first. The brackets are determined by the results in the pool play. Since you have a player in a high-level team, you are probably familiar with how pool and bracket play works, but I will leave a couple of links here in case others need them:
https://volleymontgomery.wordpress.com/2026/01/02/pool-play-in-tournaments/
https://volleymontgomery.wordpress.com/2026/01/10/bracket-play-in-tournaments/

But I have the feeling that you are trying to understand how teams are spread across divisions, rather than how the brackets work. And that's a different story because clubs are allowed to sign up for any division they think their teams are ready for. Some teams try to play at their level, some play up, and some are sandbagging the lower level divisions to take home some hardware. It appears that your team plays at their level or a bit up. That's a better approach in the long-term because the teams develop better in a competitive environment. I agree that it's nicer when you wipe the floor with your opponents and take home the medals, but that's not where your team gets challenged and learns to play.

Your assumption was right but it's tough on the kids when their school friends are taking home medals and they are getting beat on a regular basis. I think you should only be allowed to play at your designated level or up. The sandbagging is obnoxious.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I will answer the question in the thread topic first. The brackets are determined by the results in the pool play. Since you have a player in a high-level team, you are probably familiar with how pool and bracket play works, but I will leave a couple of links here in case others need them:
https://volleymontgomery.wordpress.com/2026/01/02/pool-play-in-tournaments/
https://volleymontgomery.wordpress.com/2026/01/10/bracket-play-in-tournaments/

But I have the feeling that you are trying to understand how teams are spread across divisions, rather than how the brackets work. And that's a different story because clubs are allowed to sign up for any division they think their teams are ready for. Some teams try to play at their level, some play up, and some are sandbagging the lower level divisions to take home some hardware. It appears that your team plays at their level or a bit up. That's a better approach in the long-term because the teams develop better in a competitive environment. I agree that it's nicer when you wipe the floor with your opponents and take home the medals, but that's not where your team gets challenged and learns to play.

Your assumption was right but it's tough on the kids when their school friends are taking home medals and they are getting beat on a regular basis. I think you should only be allowed to play at your designated level or up. The sandbagging is obnoxious.

What age group is your player? Every girl I know understands that Open and National are far better than American or Liberty. I don’t know many Open level players who would want to rack up medals over lousy competition.

It’s also true that the team winning Liberty competitions really isn’t Open or National level appropriate. So they might be great at the level they are playing and winning those tournaments, but they might lose every National tournament if they tried to play there. That isn’t sandbagging.

[Anonymous]

This past weekend, CHRVA set up their pools based on CHRVA ranking. For our 17s age group they had 8 teams in gold bracket division, 8 in silver bracket division and 8 in bronze. Pool results only got reseeded within the division. So 1st in bronze in pool play did not get to be reseeded with silver bracket teams, for example. So it was like 3 mini tournaments of 8. Very different from other tournaments.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This past weekend, CHRVA set up their pools based on CHRVA ranking. For our 17s age group they had 8 teams in gold bracket division, 8 in silver bracket division and 8 in bronze. Pool results only got reseeded within the division. So 1st in bronze in pool play did not get to be reseeded with silver bracket teams, for example. So it was like 3 mini tournaments of 8. Very different from other tournaments.

I don't think the PP is asking about this past weekend tournament. There was no open or national division to talk about.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This past weekend, CHRVA set up their pools based on CHRVA ranking. For our 17s age group they had 8 teams in gold bracket division, 8 in silver bracket division and 8 in bronze. Pool results only got reseeded within the division. So 1st in bronze in pool play did not get to be reseeded with silver bracket teams, for example. So it was like 3 mini tournaments of 8. Very different from other tournaments.

I don't think the PP is asking about this past weekend tournament. There was no open or national division to talk about.

The whole framing of the OP's question is a bit strange. There is no "National" division for a team to play in any large USAV tournament except for Girls Junior Nationals at the end of the season. Teams can earn a National bid from their region (which for CHRVA means winning an age group at bid regionals or perhaps finishing 2nd and getting a reallocated bid), but there is no National division at qualifiers or other USAV tournaments. Even under AAU or JVA I've never seen a National division and it's not a division they list on their websites. Maybe their team plays in tournaments that aren't sanctioned by USAV, AAU, or JVA that include a National division, but the whole question seems a little off.

The OP also spoke of being placed in a "bracket" with no options for medal play. Usually teams are placed in "pools" and then "bracket" play follows based on the results of pool play. I'm guessing the OP was talking about CHRVA non-bid regionals from this past weekend and I think I see what they mean. The non-bid regionals format is an attempt to have a 1 day tournament for all interested teams in the region with far more teams in each age group than you could have in a tournament structure that permits a lot of upwards or downwards movement. That means the final outcome is heavily dependent on initial seeding. Additionally, depending on the numbers of teams they might not have enough teams to make full 8-team pool groups so it seems like for the lower seeded pools in some age groups (e.g., 15s), they put 5 teams in the pools lower than bronze and just had the teams play round robin within those 5 teams, with no additional bracket play.

Just guessing here without additional information, but I'd guess the OP was talking about their kid's team playing in the Open division at CHRVA tournaments rather than at qualifiers. A CHRVA team that wins 50% of their games in Open at qualifiers (or other large tournaments) would likely be highly ranked among CHRVA teams and would have played in bid-regionals. On the other hand, their kid's friend who plays primarily in "American or Liberty" is probably going to qualifiers, because those are divisions mostly used in qualifiers and GJNC but not in CHRVA tournaments. If I am correct, that would explain the seeding last weekend. A team that finishes middle of the pack in Open at local CHRVA tournaments is likely weaker than a team that wins most of their matches in Liberty or American at qualifiers and that would probably be reflected in AES rankings. Open in CHRVA tournaments is not at all the same as Open at a qualifier.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This past weekend, CHRVA set up their pools based on CHRVA ranking. For our 17s age group they had 8 teams in gold bracket division, 8 in silver bracket division and 8 in bronze. Pool results only got reseeded within the division. So 1st in bronze in pool play did not get to be reseeded with silver bracket teams, for example. So it was like 3 mini tournaments of 8. Very different from other tournaments.

I don't think the PP is asking about this past weekend tournament. There was no open or national division to talk about.

The whole framing of the OP's question is a bit strange. There is no "National" division for a team to play in any large USAV tournament except for Girls Junior Nationals at the end of the season. Teams can earn a National bid from their region (which for CHRVA means winning an age group at bid regionals or perhaps finishing 2nd and getting a reallocated bid), but there is no National division at qualifiers or other USAV tournaments. Even under AAU or JVA I've never seen a National division and it's not a division they list on their websites. Maybe their team plays in tournaments that aren't sanctioned by USAV, AAU, or JVA that include a National division, but the whole question seems a little off.

The OP also spoke of being placed in a "bracket" with no options for medal play. Usually teams are placed in "pools" and then "bracket" play follows based on the results of pool play. I'm guessing the OP was talking about CHRVA non-bid regionals from this past weekend and I think I see what they mean. The non-bid regionals format is an attempt to have a 1 day tournament for all interested teams in the region with far more teams in each age group than you could have in a tournament structure that permits a lot of upwards or downwards movement. That means the final outcome is heavily dependent on initial seeding. Additionally, depending on the numbers of teams they might not have enough teams to make full 8-team pool groups so it seems like for the lower seeded pools in some age groups (e.g., 15s), they put 5 teams in the pools lower than bronze and just had the teams play round robin within those 5 teams, with no additional bracket play.

Just guessing here without additional information, but I'd guess the OP was talking about their kid's team playing in the Open division at CHRVA tournaments rather than at qualifiers. A CHRVA team that wins 50% of their games in Open at qualifiers (or other large tournaments) would likely be highly ranked among CHRVA teams and would have played in bid-regionals. On the other hand, their kid's friend who plays primarily in "American or Liberty" is probably going to qualifiers, because those are divisions mostly used in qualifiers and GJNC but not in CHRVA tournaments. If I am correct, that would explain the seeding last weekend. A team that finishes middle of the pack in Open at local CHRVA tournaments is likely weaker than a team that wins most of their matches in Liberty or American at qualifiers and that would probably be reflected in AES rankings. Open in CHRVA tournaments is not at all the same as Open at a qualifier.

I agree that the question was not asked the best way possible, but I think the early responses were on the spot. There is a lot of confusion about how to best express the level of play of a team. Do you do it based on the divisions they play in? This is not reliable because clubs can choose to play up or down. Do you do it based on team names? We all know that some teams that claim to be "open" don't really play in the open divisions even in local tournaments. Do you do it based on the level of the team in a club? We all know that not all the ones teams are the same - sometimes a ones team in a club is only as good as a twos or trees team in a different club. Then you have the discussion in a different thread about which teams are national, regional, and local. It's definitely true that teams that qualify for a bid at the USAV Nationals (even the lower level bids) is likely to be at the top of an open division in a local tournament.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This past weekend, CHRVA set up their pools based on CHRVA ranking. For our 17s age group they had 8 teams in gold bracket division, 8 in silver bracket division and 8 in bronze. Pool results only got reseeded within the division. So 1st in bronze in pool play did not get to be reseeded with silver bracket teams, for example. So it was like 3 mini tournaments of 8. Very different from other tournaments.

I don't think the PP is asking about this past weekend tournament. There was no open or national division to talk about.

The whole framing of the OP's question is a bit strange. There is no "National" division for a team to play in any large USAV tournament except for Girls Junior Nationals at the end of the season. Teams can earn a National bid from their region (which for CHRVA means winning an age group at bid regionals or perhaps finishing 2nd and getting a reallocated bid), but there is no National division at qualifiers or other USAV tournaments. Even under AAU or JVA I've never seen a National division and it's not a division they list on their websites. Maybe their team plays in tournaments that aren't sanctioned by USAV, AAU, or JVA that include a National division, but the whole question seems a little off.

The OP also spoke of being placed in a "bracket" with no options for medal play. Usually teams are placed in "pools" and then "bracket" play follows based on the results of pool play. I'm guessing the OP was talking about CHRVA non-bid regionals from this past weekend and I think I see what they mean. The non-bid regionals format is an attempt to have a 1 day tournament for all interested teams in the region with far more teams in each age group than you could have in a tournament structure that permits a lot of upwards or downwards movement. That means the final outcome is heavily dependent on initial seeding. Additionally, depending on the numbers of teams they might not have enough teams to make full 8-team pool groups so it seems like for the lower seeded pools in some age groups (e.g., 15s), they put 5 teams in the pools lower than bronze and just had the teams play round robin within those 5 teams, with no additional bracket play.

Just guessing here without additional information, but I'd guess the OP was talking about their kid's team playing in the Open division at CHRVA tournaments rather than at qualifiers. A CHRVA team that wins 50% of their games in Open at qualifiers (or other large tournaments) would likely be highly ranked among CHRVA teams and would have played in bid-regionals. On the other hand, their kid's friend who plays primarily in "American or Liberty" is probably going to qualifiers, because those are divisions mostly used in qualifiers and GJNC but not in CHRVA tournaments. If I am correct, that would explain the seeding last weekend. A team that finishes middle of the pack in Open at local CHRVA tournaments is likely weaker than a team that wins most of their matches in Liberty or American at qualifiers and that would probably be reflected in AES rankings. Open in CHRVA tournaments is not at all the same as Open at a qualifier.

I agree that the question was not asked the best way possible, but I think the early responses were on the spot. There is a lot of confusion about how to best express the level of play of a team. Do you do it based on the divisions they play in? This is not reliable because clubs can choose to play up or down. Do you do it based on team names? We all know that some teams that claim to be "open" don't really play in the open divisions even in local tournaments. Do you do it based on the level of the team in a club? We all know that not all the ones teams are the same - sometimes a ones team in a club is only as good as a twos or trees team in a different club. Then you have the discussion in a different thread about which teams are national, regional, and local. It's definitely true that teams that qualify for a bid at the USAV Nationals (even the lower level bids) is likely to be at the top of an open division in a local tournament.

I understand that there can be mixed feelings and perceptions between a team that enters in tougher divisions and wins less matches than a team that plays against weaker competition and wins more. My sense of the crux of the OP’s primary question is why their DD’s team (who allegedly wins 50% of their matches in Open) was seeded lower in some unspecified CHRVA tournament than their friend’s team that wins more playing in Liberty and American. I agree it would be odd if a team that plays in Open at qualifiers and wins ~50% of their matches would be seeded lower than a team that wins more but plays in lower divisions. The lack of clarity in the original question is what makes me think they are comparing apples and oranges.

[Anonymous]

PP, can you offer some clarity about what the question is? Is this about your team being seeded lower because of the stats in the open tournaments vs other teams who are seeded higher based on stats in less competitive tournament? Or this is about not earning medals in open tournaments vs weaker teams winning medals in less competitive tournaments?