Duel Enrollment Options in FCPS

[Anonymous]

My son is a Freshman at in-state college. He was telling me how many credits other students have from dual enrollment (DE) in High School and these other students went to other FCPS HSs. His HS offered very few DE classes but plenty of AP classes. Can someone explain or discuss what makes a HS offer more DE classes than others or what makes a HS offer more AP classes than others? It seems like DE classes are much easier than the AP classes, so my son feels like students at those HSs have such an advantage. I feel like I'm missing something because there should be equal opportunities at every FCPS HS, shouldn't there?

[Anonymous]

Or at least you should have the choice to attend any FCPS school regardless of where you live in the county.

[Anonymous]

Here is what I understand.

AP classes with high enough scores on the AP exam get you college credit at pretty much every University in the country.

Dual Enrollment classes require that the teacher have a masters degree and the class be approved for the kid to get credit. Many times those credits are only accepted at VA State schools.

Dual Enrollment classes for classes with an AP option are seen as easier, making it harder for the Counselor to check the most rigorous box on college applications.

Dual Enrollment courses for post AP work are seen as fine, but see point 2. Many times kids have to retake the class in college, this seems to be particularly true with math classes.

Dual Enrollment is offered across the County. Some kids end up taking classes at the Community College, those credits transfer to colleges since they are at an accredited Community College.

Overall, my lay persons understanding from talking with friends who have kids in HS or recently graduated. AP/IB classes and tests are preferred by colleges. They are seen as more challenging then DE classes. But you can find DE at every HS in FCPS, I know the post calculus math classes are DE. I have heard of kids taking DE English instead of AP at various HS but my understanding is that is highly discouraged.

[Anonymous]

I think that a lot of these decisions are made by availability of teachers. NoVA CC changed their rules recently so that the DE teachers must have a Masters degree in the subject they're teaching. If the school does not have such a resource, they likely cannot have a DE course offering in the subject (for instance, DD's math teacher has an engineering degree; it would not suffice for teaching a DE Calc course, although she is qualified to teach the AP Calc course).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Here is what I understand.

AP classes with high enough scores on the AP exam get you college credit at pretty much every University in the country.

Dual Enrollment classes require that the teacher have a masters degree and the class be approved for the kid to get credit. Many times those credits are only accepted at VA State schools.

Dual Enrollment classes for classes with an AP option are seen as easier, making it harder for the Counselor to check the most rigorous box on college applications.

Dual Enrollment courses for post AP work are seen as fine, but see point 2. Many times kids have to retake the class in college, this seems to be particularly true with math classes.

Dual Enrollment is offered across the County. Some kids end up taking classes at the Community College, those credits transfer to colleges since they are at an accredited Community College.

Overall, my lay persons understanding from talking with friends who have kids in HS or recently graduated. AP/IB classes and tests are preferred by colleges. They are seen as more challenging then DE classes. But you can find DE at every HS in FCPS, I know the post calculus math classes are DE. I have heard of kids taking DE English instead of AP at various HS but my understanding is that is highly discouraged.

Whether it is actually the case or not, this seems to be the perception. DD will be taking the DE version of AP Lang, not because she wants to, but because she's taking 8 classes, and something has to be done online. Her counselor was really unhappy with her wanting to take a core course online, and wanted her to drop either AP Physics or AP Chemistry (DD is going to be a STEM major) so that she could fit AP Lang in her schedule, but we'd just end up right here in her senior year, so is allowing her to do it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here is what I understand.

AP classes with high enough scores on the AP exam get you college credit at pretty much every University in the country.

Dual Enrollment classes require that the teacher have a masters degree and the class be approved for the kid to get credit. Many times those credits are only accepted at VA State schools.

Dual Enrollment classes for classes with an AP option are seen as easier, making it harder for the Counselor to check the most rigorous box on college applications.

Dual Enrollment courses for post AP work are seen as fine, but see point 2. Many times kids have to retake the class in college, this seems to be particularly true with math classes.

Dual Enrollment is offered across the County. Some kids end up taking classes at the Community College, those credits transfer to colleges since they are at an accredited Community College.

Overall, my lay persons understanding from talking with friends who have kids in HS or recently graduated. AP/IB classes and tests are preferred by colleges. They are seen as more challenging then DE classes. But you can find DE at every HS in FCPS, I know the post calculus math classes are DE. I have heard of kids taking DE English instead of AP at various HS but my understanding is that is highly discouraged.

Whether it is actually the case or not, this seems to be the perception. DD will be taking the DE version of AP Lang, not because she wants to, but because she's taking 8 classes, and something has to be done online. Her counselor was really unhappy with her wanting to take a core course online, and wanted her to drop either AP Physics or AP Chemistry (DD is going to be a STEM major) so that she could fit AP Lang in her schedule, but we'd just end up right here in her senior year, so is allowing her to do it.

is this an FCPS HS counselor? My kids have had three different counselors at their FCPS and none of them ever seemed to have an opinion on anything at all. I'm honestly impressed the counselor actually expressed a thought beyond "scheduling".

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here is what I understand.

AP classes with high enough scores on the AP exam get you college credit at pretty much every University in the country.

Dual Enrollment classes require that the teacher have a masters degree and the class be approved for the kid to get credit. Many times those credits are only accepted at VA State schools.

Dual Enrollment classes for classes with an AP option are seen as easier, making it harder for the Counselor to check the most rigorous box on college applications.

Dual Enrollment courses for post AP work are seen as fine, but see point 2. Many times kids have to retake the class in college, this seems to be particularly true with math classes.

Dual Enrollment is offered across the County. Some kids end up taking classes at the Community College, those credits transfer to colleges since they are at an accredited Community College.

Overall, my lay persons understanding from talking with friends who have kids in HS or recently graduated. AP/IB classes and tests are preferred by colleges. They are seen as more challenging then DE classes. But you can find DE at every HS in FCPS, I know the post calculus math classes are DE. I have heard of kids taking DE English instead of AP at various HS but my understanding is that is highly discouraged.

Whether it is actually the case or not, this seems to be the perception. DD will be taking the DE version of AP Lang, not because she wants to, but because she's taking 8 classes, and something has to be done online. Her counselor was really unhappy with her wanting to take a core course online, and wanted her to drop either AP Physics or AP Chemistry (DD is going to be a STEM major) so that she could fit AP Lang in her schedule, but we'd just end up right here in her senior year, so is allowing her to do it.

I would guess that a STEM major with a heavy AP STEM load will have fewer issues with DE English then a humanities major would.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here is what I understand.

AP classes with high enough scores on the AP exam get you college credit at pretty much every University in the country.

Dual Enrollment classes require that the teacher have a masters degree and the class be approved for the kid to get credit. Many times those credits are only accepted at VA State schools.

Dual Enrollment classes for classes with an AP option are seen as easier, making it harder for the Counselor to check the most rigorous box on college applications.

Dual Enrollment courses for post AP work are seen as fine, but see point 2. Many times kids have to retake the class in college, this seems to be particularly true with math classes.

Dual Enrollment is offered across the County. Some kids end up taking classes at the Community College, those credits transfer to colleges since they are at an accredited Community College.

Overall, my lay persons understanding from talking with friends who have kids in HS or recently graduated. AP/IB classes and tests are preferred by colleges. They are seen as more challenging then DE classes. But you can find DE at every HS in FCPS, I know the post calculus math classes are DE. I have heard of kids taking DE English instead of AP at various HS but my understanding is that is highly discouraged.

Whether it is actually the case or not, this seems to be the perception. DD will be taking the DE version of AP Lang, not because she wants to, but because she's taking 8 classes, and something has to be done online. Her counselor was really unhappy with her wanting to take a core course online, and wanted her to drop either AP Physics or AP Chemistry (DD is going to be a STEM major) so that she could fit AP Lang in her schedule, but we'd just end up right here in her senior year, so is allowing her to do it.

is this an FCPS HS counselor? My kids have had three different counselors at their FCPS and none of them ever seemed to have an opinion on anything at all. I'm honestly impressed the counselor actually expressed a thought beyond "scheduling".

LOL! That had been the experience until she asked for this. Her counselor definitely has a 'figure it out yourself' mentality in general, so I think it caught her by surprise to be yelled at for wanting to take either AP Lang or APUSH online.

[Anonymous]

I feel like my kids counselor is always trying to talk them into easier/lower classes and I have never been able to figure out why!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I feel like my kids counselor is always trying to talk them into easier/lower classes and I have never been able to figure out why!

At curriculum night, just about everyone DD and her friends talked to about AP classes essentially told the kids not to take it, unless they were happy with a D or an F. AP Calc BC, AP Physics 1, APUSH, AP Lang, AP Chem, AP Bio, .... Her counselor hasn't said anything, other than discouraging kids she deals with from making changes to their schedule or dropping classes down.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think that a lot of these decisions are made by availability of teachers. NoVA CC changed their rules recently so that the DE teachers must have a Masters degree in the subject they're teaching. If the school does not have such a resource, they likely cannot have a DE course offering in the subject (for instance, DD's math teacher has an engineering degree; it would not suffice for teaching a DE Calc course, although she is qualified to teach the AP Calc course).

Wow. my kid is a freshman and just getting rolling but this is all confusing. That's so unfortunate and lucky for others whether or not you school has the teachers with the credentials to provide these DE classes. I said unlucky...but high school shouldn't be based on luck. I think FCPS needs to do SOMETHING (not sure what) to provide opportunities to everyone. Every student should have the same opportunities.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think that a lot of these decisions are made by availability of teachers. NoVA CC changed their rules recently so that the DE teachers must have a Masters degree in the subject they're teaching. If the school does not have such a resource, they likely cannot have a DE course offering in the subject (for instance, DD's math teacher has an engineering degree; it would not suffice for teaching a DE Calc course, although she is qualified to teach the AP Calc course).

Wow. my kid is a freshman and just getting rolling but this is all confusing. That's so unfortunate and lucky for others whether or not you school has the teachers with the credentials to provide these DE classes. I said unlucky...but high school shouldn't be based on luck. I think FCPS needs to do SOMETHING (not sure what) to provide opportunities to everyone. Every student should have the same opportunities.

You can enroll in a class at your community college or take the class online. FCPS cannot mandate that all teachers have masters degrees so that is not going to happen. It is no different then kids who want to take a language that is not offered at their school, they take it onlne if they want to take it that badly. It is not ideal but they cannot have identical class offerings across the county because different schools have different needs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think that a lot of these decisions are made by availability of teachers. NoVA CC changed their rules recently so that the DE teachers must have a Masters degree in the subject they're teaching. If the school does not have such a resource, they likely cannot have a DE course offering in the subject (for instance, DD's math teacher has an engineering degree; it would not suffice for teaching a DE Calc course, although she is qualified to teach the AP Calc course).

Wow. my kid is a freshman and just getting rolling but this is all confusing. That's so unfortunate and lucky for others whether or not you school has the teachers with the credentials to provide these DE classes. I said unlucky...but high school shouldn't be based on luck. I think FCPS needs to do SOMETHING (not sure what) to provide opportunities to everyone. Every student should have the same opportunities.

You can enroll in a class at your community college or take the class online. FCPS cannot mandate that all teachers have masters degrees so that is not going to happen. It is no different then kids who want to take a language that is not offered at their school, they take it onlne if they want to take it that badly. It is not ideal but they cannot have identical class offerings across the county because different schools have different needs.

I certainly understand that, but what I'm learning is that the differences in what different high schools could offer could be quite extensive. Such as 7 DEs vs 2 DEs, etc. No offense to the language people but, if a kid WANTS to take Russian and the school doesn't offer it, that doesn't concern me anywhere nearly as much as the DE, AP issues. But I can't imagine a practical solution except to remove DEs from HSs and just let kids take them at community colleges online if they want. I'm not saying that is a good solution but it levels the playing field a little.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Wow. my kid is a freshman and just getting rolling but this is all confusing. That's so unfortunate and lucky for others whether or not you school has the teachers with the credentials to provide these DE classes. I said unlucky...but high school shouldn't be based on luck. I think FCPS needs to do SOMETHING (not sure what) to provide opportunities to everyone. Every student should have the same opportunities.

FCPS has started a program to encourage teachers to get the classes needed to teach DE. They are providing tuition reimbursement for classes that lead to a DE certification. But it's also a long process. It took 2 years for FCPS/NVCC to approve the DE class I teach (no AP for it).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I feel like my kids counselor is always trying to talk them into easier/lower classes and I have never been able to figure out why!

It's because there are a lot of pushy parents who expect their kids to take the highest level offered without considering the kids' interests, strengths, or time and because the achievement-oriented culture can make them feel like they have to take classes because their parents want them to or their friends are taking them. FCPS is open enrollment at the HS level, so anyone can sign up for any class, there's no barrier to entry on AP classes, whether the actual kid is ready for it or not. The message I hear from my kids' school is that the kids should take the right level for them and some realism about the time/reading commitments for some of the AP classes. The school is sometimes the only ones telling them that they don't have to take AP everything.

University DE credits are just as easy to check as APs, too. The FCPS publishes the VCCS course numbers for the DE classes, and most colleges have a transfer credit lookup portal where you can see what school accept the credits. My kid takes a mix of AP and DE, and there is nowhere we've looked (even OOS) that won't give them credit for freshman English for one of the ENG 111/ENG 112 series DE courses (Mason will only credit ENG 112, but they're the exception). The types of schools that don't take DE credit (which is basically a community college transfer class) are typically the same ones that don't give AP credit either.

I think some of the "less rigorous" perception come from investment in and marketing of the AP system and snobbery about community colleges. I see the value of the national/unified curriculum of the AP courses, but having the entire course hinge on a single exam is not ideal and the College Board does a good job marketing their $100/pop exams. We have a very good community college system in Virginia, and it would be nice if FCPS levered it to offer some of the types of program that other states do where advanced students can basically graduate with an associate's degree and their diploma at the same time (my niece and nephew are in this type of program in NYC).

At one of our college nights, someone asked a panel of college admissions officers if colleges considered the two differently, and all of the admissions reps said no, DE and AP were college-level and considered high-rigor. Our school counselor moderating felt the need at the end to overrule them and say that the high school encouraged AP and felt that was the highest rigor, but it sounded like a justification for why they offer 30+ AP courses and only 4 DE courses on campus. The people in the admission office actually reviewing applications didn't express a preference.